Military Hardware Thread [Split]

[bad driver]

hey, cancelled na ba talaga ang f22 raptor? sayang

[Karding]

hey, cancelled na ba talaga ang f22 raptor? sayang

hindi pa yata kapatid.

AS OF APRIL 2005

F/A-22 RAPTOR

Boeing is teamed with Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney and the U.S. Air Force to develop the F/A-22 Raptor as a replacement for the F-15. The fast, agile, stealthy F/A-22 will take over the air superiority role with the Air Combat Command starting in 2005. The Air Force has said it requires a minimum of 381 F/A-22s to meet air dominance needs for the future.

The F/A-22 program’s outstanding teaming arrangement has allowed unprecedented industry cost-sharing and taken advantage of the different companies' strengths in advanced technology, production capability and systems integration.

Boeing Work
Boeing in Seattle, Wash., builds the Raptor’s wings and aft-fuselage, as is responsible for avionics integration and test, 70 percent of mission software, the pilot and maintenance training systems and the life-support and fire-protection systems.

Hardware Deliveries
As of April 2005, Boeing has delivered 61 sets of wings and 66 aft-fuselages to team partner Lockheed Martin for mate with the plane’s fuselage in Marietta, Ga. The deliveries include wings and aft-fuselages for eleven test vehicles supporting the program’s Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase, eight production representative test vehicles that will be used for operational test, evaluation and tactics development, with the remaining deliveries being for the first production aircraft.

anyway, very interesting thread!

[zeagle]

i think the often heard remark that the 5.56mm ammo of the m16 can't penetrate "talahib" is a myth. i can personally testify that it can punch through a 3/8" steel plate at 50 meters. consider the fact that i used a "baby" with a 12 inch barrel, e di lalo na pag full length 22 inch barreled m16. did this in a bulacan firing range, napagkatuwaan lang namin na tirahin yung falling plate at 50 meters. we fired 20 rounds, bullet went through 20 times. e hindi pa first class ammo gamit namin, 19 out of the 20 were "hingi" from a soldier friend and what he gave us were rusted, dirty 5.56 rounds that we had to clean with sandpaper. i only fired 1 round of new, out of the box US issue ammo, same results din, tagos sa 3/8" steel plate.

forgot the name of the range, it was actually in disuse already and had closed down. kilala lang ng kumpare ko yung may-ari.

It can penetrate the talahib pero not on a straight line. The projectile kasi is light kaya madaling ma-deflect. Kaya nga din delikado ang 5.56 coz malikot pag-pumasok sa body ng tao.

[zeagle]

Maganda pa din ang M16 kung performance. Tried the others malakas ang sipa. M16 below was smooth and minimal kick. Kaya lang nga, durability wise, pag madumi na, ipit na.

[yebo]

naka muzzle brake kasi yung m16 dun sa picture kaya low recoil. try mo unit na flash hider lang.

[zeagle]

naka muzzle brake kasi yung m16 dun sa picture kaya low recoil. try mo unit na flash hider lang.

Yun nga din sabi sa akin. Big difference pala yun? Why don't they make it standard to all M16 or for all guns?

[ghosthunter]

Going back to the airforce...

Won't Rutan style aircraft fit the PAF's requirements for airsupport aircraft? They are cheap (many are kit planes!) and can be modified to military use with some imagination. And others are military aircraft.

http://www.cas-cozy.nl/corporate/1-5.html

http://www.aerofiles.com/scaled-ares.jpg
rutan's fighter concept

http://www.aerofiles.com/adam.jpg
this push/pull twin engine plane could be modified into a ground support & observation aircraft.

http://www.cas-cozy.nl/corporate/images/Image3.gif
http://www.aerofiles.com/longEZ-NOAA.jpg
http://www.aerofiles.com/rutan-longez.jpg
The Rutan Long-EZ can be modified into a daytime light ground attack aircraft and, with nightvision equiptment, can used at night attacks too. From the design, it seems easy enough to modify it to fit some machine guns and bombs on this type of plane.

The big plus about Rutan kit planes are that they are (relatively) cheap and easy to build, maintain and fly.

To make them more durable against ground fire, some (lightweight) kevlar based armour can be wrapped around the vital areas of the planes like pilot area, engine and fuel tanks.

Do I make sense or am I just crazy?

[ghosthunter]

Just imagine a squadron of Rutan based fighter planes coming in for attack!

[niky]

Kaya nga sayang Rutan didn't go through with his "Mudfighter" concept. Rutan has a knack for creating very cheap and very sturdy and very WEIRD aircraft which fly VERY well.

The Mudfighter concept was very interesting. A low power jet-turbine set at the end of the fuselage, with the intake on only one side and a 20mm cannon on the other side. This is so that misfires and vented gases from the cannon would not foul the engine. Since it's all composite, it could very easily be reinforced with a couple more layers for resistance to small arms fire, and since the engine is small and electronics are minimal, it shouldn't be hard for even our airforce to maintain. And all at $1million. For the cost of a secondhand F5, we could get a bunch of these.

[jaeger]

It can penetrate the talahib pero not on a straight line. The projectile kasi is light kaya madaling ma-deflect. Kaya nga din delikado ang 5.56 coz malikot pag-pumasok sa body ng tao.

I think this is already moot. the talahib was an issue during the Vietnam war when the 5.56 round was easily deflected when it hits tall grass.

To address this NATO issued the SS109 round (Belgian round by Fabrique Nationale, sometime in the early '80s) for the M-16 : heavier ball mass; cartridge had higher grain count, lower muzzle velocity to improve long-range performance but with increased rifling for more stable bullet flight.

For the M-16 to take in the new round, the receiver was the same but the barrel was changed to increase the rifling. If my memory serves me right, I think it was one twist every 9-inches instead of 1-twist every 12-inches. After all these changes, the new M-16 was re-badged M-16A2 and the SS109 round is still used til today, I think.

Diba Armscor made Strike-3 ammunition for the M-16, (yung 3-balls in tandem in 1 cartridge) tapos yung spread pattern is pretty tight. Na-try ko na to sa Camp Bagong Diwa early this year. Favorite ko pa rin 12-guage shotgun, kasi parang kanyon hawak mo. My bro.-in-law has a Valmet na naka choke for horizontal scatter. . . awesome.

[StraightSix]

hey, cancelled na ba talaga ang f22 raptor? sayang

Almost ... but not yet. It was almost killed by Congress. The USAF is currently testing/evaluating the plane and training pilots at Nellis AFB. The first delivery should be late this year or early 2006, jocks in Langley AFB will be the first to get their hands on the new toy.

[ghosthunter]

Kaya nga sayang Rutan didn't go through with his "Mudfighter" concept. Rutan has a knack for creating very cheap and very sturdy and very WEIRD aircraft which fly VERY well.

The Mudfighter concept was very interesting. A low power jet-turbine set at the end of the fuselage, with the intake on only one side and a 20mm cannon on the other side. This is so that misfires and vented gases from the cannon would not foul the engine. Since it's all composite, it could very easily be reinforced with a couple more layers for resistance to small arms fire, and since the engine is small and electronics are minimal, it shouldn't be hard for even our airforce to maintain. And all at $1million. For the cost of a secondhand F5, we could get a bunch of these.

Since Rutan's mudfighter is not available, why not develop a Rutan longEZ based ground attack aircraft locally? We do have that much local technology & know how. We can use the existing supply of bombs and modified large caliber guns for weapons.

I think its possible to get the basic plane flying for less than the price of a Philippine senator's bullet proof Ford Expedition (or San Juan Mayor J.V. Ejercito's Porsche Cayenne).

[FrankDrebin]

How about communication facilities? Radar towers?

[StraightSix]

How about communication facilities? Radar towers?

Since focusing on COIN, wala na sa priority ang air defense although with good reason ... afaik, there are functioning/active radar stations in Wallace AS, La Union, one more in Gozar AS, Lubang Island, and 2 mobile units in fixed emplacements in Palawan and Zamboanga City. Those 4 stations do not and cannot cover the whole Philippine area. Those familiar with Baguio City might have noticed the 2 big dishes on Mt. Cabuyao, ex-USAF yon, and used to cover the eastern approaches to the country. But an ex-USAF guy I know disputes this, saying that's what's been cooling Baguio eversince (electric fans)

To show everybody where the real priority is ... the only PAF unit that is up to date is the 250th Wing. It has the most modern and up-to-date aircrafts. The last acquisition made by the PAF, of totally new aircraft were Bell 412's and went to this unit. The 250th Wing is the Presidential Airlift Wing, and is used to fly politicians around. That's your tax money at work.

[zeagle]

I think this is already moot. the talahib was an issue during the Vietnam war when the 5.56 round was easily deflected when it hits tall grass.

To address this NATO issued the SS109 round (Belgian round by Fabrique Nationale, sometime in the early '80s) for the M-16 : heavier ball mass; cartridge had higher grain count, lower muzzle velocity to improve long-range performance but with increased rifling for more stable bullet flight.

For the M-16 to take in the new round, the receiver was the same but the barrel was changed to increase the rifling. If my memory serves me right, I think it was one twist every 9-inches instead of 1-twist every 12-inches. After all these changes, the new M-16 was re-badged M-16A2 and the SS109 round is still used til today, I think.

Diba Armscor made Strike-3 ammunition for the M-16, (yung 3-balls in tandem in 1 cartridge) tapos yung spread pattern is pretty tight. Na-try ko na to sa Camp Bagong Diwa early this year. Favorite ko pa rin 12-guage shotgun, kasi parang kanyon hawak mo. My bro.-in-law has a Valmet na naka choke for horizontal scatter. . . awesome.

Good point dude! Sa labas they use the new round but here in Pinas, we still use the old ammo. I think 1 in 7 inches yung twist for the new round. We can not use the SS109 sa local M16s here at sasabog yata yung barrel or something. Yung friend ko kasi naka Elisco and bought SS109 rounds. He was warned by a gunsmith not to use it in the Elisco.

[rhops]

Almost ... but not yet. It was almost killed by Congress. The USAF is currently testing/evaluating the plane and training pilots at Nellis AFB. The first delivery should be late this year or early 2006, jocks in Langley AFB will be the first to get their hands on the new toy.

I think the F22 is the next generation air superiority fighter replacing the F15s. Kasi yung JSF F35 is a strike fighter replacing the F/A 18 hornet, A 10, F 16C. So parang complimentary yung dalawa so i guess raptor production would continue.

[StraightSix]

I think the F22 is the next generation air superiority fighter replacing the F15s. Kasi yung JSF F35 is a strike fighter replacing the F/A 18 hornet, A 10, F 16C. So parang complimentary yung dalawa so i guess raptor production would continue.

That's the idea ... ATF + JSF, to replace the current mix. I'd hate to see the Warthog go, though.

[yebo]

We can not use the SS109 sa local M16s here at sasabog yata yung barrel or something. Yung friend ko kasi naka Elisco and bought SS109 rounds. He was warned by a gunsmith not to use it in the Elisco.

true only for the m16s that were manufactured pre-1970s (the ones with triangular foregrips). i used US issue NATO rounds in my m16 (Colt 12 inch barrel, 1-9 twist) ok naman siya. the elisco m16s actually have thicker barrels than pre-1970 made US m16s. my friend has one (22 inch barrel) and has fired US issue NATO 5.56, no problems at all.

[zeagle]

true only for the m16s that were manufactured pre-1970s (the ones with triangular foregrips). i used US issue NATO rounds in my m16 (Colt 12 inch barrel, 1-9 twist) ok naman siya. the elisco m16s actually have thicker barrels than pre-1970 made US m16s. my friend has one (22 inch barrel) and has fired US issue NATO 5.56, no problems at all.

Hey I'm learning here.

[niky]

As regards the Rutan LongEZ. It's too light to effectively carry ordnance. We'd probably have to buy a larger platform.

Plus, civilian aircraft don't have hardpoints for external bomb and rocket storage. They might put too much stress on the wings. With helicopters, this isn't much of a problem as the winglets don't have to support the aircraft. Rutan aircraft would make good, cheap recon and spotter planes, though.