TOYOTA PRIUS [merged threads]

[torque2006]

sir, like niky said, the battery's effective pollution when the vehicle is in use close to zero.

but producing the batteries is another question.

[mazdamazda]

Hybrids will take a huge leap when the new generation batteries (like NanoSafe) hits the mass market (and also when they introduce the option to charge also you battery from a wall outlet rather than relying on the conventional engine to power it).

[niky]

Want the best of both worlds?

Hybrids don't save as much energy from driving on the batteries as they do from coasting down (regenerative braking) and engine shut off. Sooner or later, if you run on full batteries, they'll run out (effective range of the stock pack is pretty short, less than ten miles). Then you need to waste energy recharging the battery packs. Some Prius owners say that performance is sluggish when the batteries are discharged... it can happen if you use it in hot traffic, with the airconditioner on. The new Prius has a more efficient aircon, but in our short drive of it before, I noticed that the packs were a bit drained after heavens knows how many "around the block" test drives at the "World of Toyota".

There are those of us who bemoan the fact that regenerative braking, start/stop functions and other hybrid goodies aren't available on non-hybrids... arguing that they could be put to better use on cheaper and more mass market vehicles.

Oops. Looks like someone is planning to do that already (although at the price, this car isn't exactly mass-market.)

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/05...its-range.html

Mini Diesel. Regenerative braking, auto start/stop, gear change "suggestion" system to help manual drivers eke more out of their cars. The Mini line-up already has goodies like electric power steering (helps decrease engine load)... and I'm sure electric A/C may not be far off.

60 mpg (estimated... better than the Prius), same carbon emissions footprint.

Not an ideal solution... but can you imagine a Civic or a Corolla with a similar system? Instead of costing twice as much, it'd cost just slightly more than the regular car (maybe 100-200k more).

[mazdamazda]

Uy... someone did finally make it happen (hybrid goodies on non-hybrid cars)! Thanks BMW/Mini! :clap:

[niky]

Of course, though... it being a Mini... it'd still cost 1.5 - 2.5 million here... :hihihi:

[king_solomon]

I admire you guys. dami nyo naman alam.....

[oldblue]

ang ayoko lang sa hybrid parang dalawa pa iintindihin fuel and battery. kakatamad

[A121]

ang ayoko lang sa hybrid parang dalawa pa iintindihin fuel and battery. kakatamad

idagdag pa yung complexity ng electronics. ngayon pagbukas mo ng hood, plastic na makikita mo. hehe. don't mind me, mas gusto ko carby

[Horsepower]

But DIESEL engines aren't the end-all-be-all either....

Like any current engine tech, it still has its disadvantages. It still consumes quite a lot during idle (it can't beat a hybrid there) and although it's easier to create diesel, it's still a pain to refine the fuel.

And seriously, hybrid batteries don't burn out in 2-3 years. Where the hell did you get that crap from? In the US, Japan and Europe, Toyota provides a battery warranty of 7-8 years and even with that, wala pa ngang mga reported cases of battery failure (sources: edumunds.com; carspyshots.net, etc.). What's more, Toyota (and a few other manufactuers) aceept hybrid batteries once you want to get rid of them (kasama sa battery recycling program nila)

Also another BS item is the pollution figure against hybrids. In fact, they produce very minimal emissions. Sa US, there hasn't been a diesel that qualifies for the SU-LEV category.......yet (hanggang ULEV-II pa lamang atm). So sa ngayon, hybrids from Toyota and Honda are the only ones to reach that category.

Another item is your unfair comparison between a Santa Fe CRDI and a Lexus RX400h. Be advised that the latter has a 3.3 V6 engine with hybrid motor (thus the equivalence to a 4.0L V8). What were you thinking comparing a 2.2 diesel to a 3.3 V6 gas/petrol engine (mated to Ni-MH motor)? My golly, that's just an unfair comparison. Plus, you bring in the equation of emissions. I'm sorry to say that you are WRONG.

CO2 emissions:
Santa Fe 2.2 = 193 g/km
Lexus RX400h = 192 g/km

Still has the slight upperhand even if the latter has a bigger displacement engine.

You are right about overall efficiency in that diesels still are better than hybrids on that (I too agree on this) and overall costs still favors diesel.....pero you're other statements are just purely misleading. You state it as if diesel is all high and mighty yet you mention that hybrid is just a 100% white elephant. And worse is that you even state that current hybrids emit more CO2 emissions than current diesel engines??? I wonder what website did you search for all that crap.

I have no bias against any engine tech (I have two gasoline cars at home; four diesel vehicles at that...and I praise the Lexus LS 600 hybrid).....but unlike you (a one-sided diesel fanboy), there are other people who keep their mind open and view all of the current and upcoming fuel technologies with an open mind.

So I guess.....that post you made was so biased that I don't even know what to think. But in any way either, I guess that's something that even you, a pure diesel fanboy who made a clearly one-sided ignorant post, wouldn't even understand for a long while.

I don't know what's with the Ad hominem. Attack my arguments, not me. Ignorant? hahahaha, i may be but i am at least intelligent enough to know there are things i don't know. Since you called me ignorant, i take it that you are a super genius who knows everything?

well then, mr.genius,


I didn't say that Diesels are the the end-all-be-all(sic), I just said that it's better. Stop imagining ancient diesels, i am talking about Common Rail Diesels. I just said that Hybrid is NOT the way to go. Meaning, there's still room for improvement. I am not open minded?? I am just waiting for the right combination and development of technology, that's all. If that's being unopenminded, then so be it. I just find it funny that spending several ten thousands of dollars is worth the extra mileage which a typical diesel can easily beat is being open minded (accdg to the mr.genius you).


Sure, i *might* be wrong regarding the batteries' lifespan but remember, these batteries were designed for American conditions. Time will only tell if it can last 8yrs here in the tropical region(tough luck!). The battery technology of these are merely NiMH (that's Nickel Metal Hydride). That's hardly hi-tech. I expected something much much more advanced than Lithium Polymer so these NiMHs packs is a joke to me. I've used quite a lot of rechargeable batteries for my electronic gadgets, RC toys and science projects so I know that NiMH is next to NiCD when it comes to bad efficiency. Sure, NiMH is great with high current applications such as motors but its main problem is that it easily burns out and discharges on its own aside from being HEAVY. It's like one big fire then poof! gone. I don't know how extensive your experience with batteries is though but mine isn't that extensive either. I've just used them for like 16yrs+ so im not an expert about it...yet. I just know which are the good and the bad ones. I also know that NiMH batteries tend to have relatively lower performance after only a year.


The replacement batteries are US$ 7000 each. If i am not mistaken, there's 12 of them. At that cost, they should have added something to supplement the battery. Let me do a little math, 7000x12= US$ 84,000. That sounds like a new car. That sounds stupid to me given the puny "benefits".


Sure, Toyota would recycle these for you when you replace them. Wait, what's there to recycle? The electrolytes are out (they degenerate), the piles are out (they degenerate too!), what's left then? I reckon it must be the casing! So, where are they gonna dump the contents of the batteries then? to outer space? Of course not, that'll cost a lot. They lose a lot with every Prius sold already. Wait! how about dumping it to 3rd world countries such as the Philippines? what a bright idea!


Also, replacement (non-Toyota) batteries appeared in the US Market showing sign that there's indeed a problem. If the battery of Prius, a relatively new model, is guaranteed to last long (there's even a claim it'll last the life of the car), it's quite funny for some companies to sell batteries and for some Prius owners to replace theirs this early.


BTW, Do you know that if you don't use your Prius regularly, Toyota USA will void your car's warranty if you don't charge the hybrid battery system once/two weeks? I've read consumer complaints regarding this and i think it's silly for them to consider not charging as user negligence. Of course, i haven't talked to Toyota USA regarding this but you might wanna try.


There's been several reports of stalling Priuses with the battery as the culprit so obviously, this technology very far from perfection.


Toyota USA recalled these batteries several times. That's "Toyota quality" for you. Here in the Philippines, good luck on having a manufacturer recall. The only car brand i've heard do a recall here is Nissan for the Xtrail. Honda did with their falling fuel tanks but it wasn't publicized to protect their "image". Toyota silently dealt with the D-4D choking problem by making the cars consume more without any guarantee nor statement it won't fail long after the warranty period. Those that had their ECU programmed saw jacked up consumption in fuel.


I used to dream about Hybrids back in High school. A car that has an electric motor with batteries charged by the fossil-run engine. Then, there's the environmental impact, the development of Diesels specifically the Common Rail Direct Injection of 1500 bars, the forced induction version of this, the variable turbine forced induction of that, i knew, petrol hybrids are not yet ripe. I mean, why bother with very few miles of electricity-ran car? WTF, for several thousands of dollars? no Way.


BTW, what type of Diesels do you drive? im quite surprised you're not a fan of diesel given you have 4 diesel cars as you've stated. Just to clarify, I am not a fan of ancient isuzu-like diesels, just the CRDi, specifically the boosted ones like the CRDi VGT /E-VGT because i'm after efficiency while driving a little fast (200kmh+). Who'd want a smoking, slow and noisy engine that rocks your whole car while you drive?


Regarding the SantaFe CRDi vs Lexus 470h, that comparison was done in Australia (after the SantaFe's real world testing of 50.4mpg run), not USA so it's an I4 Diesel vs whatever the engine is of the hybrid Lexus (which is a Toyota). There's no CRDi model in USA. And when i say emissions, it's not only the CO2, but the whole shebang. And it's 191g/km (accdg to Hyundai Europe) not 193 some European and Australian websites even quote 190g/km so i don't know which one.


If you love the Lexus 600h or whatever, why don't you buy one?

[meldy12]

peace to all tsikoteers. let us take things in good faith. settle down raven and horsepower. you both have good arguments. peace