Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[actor21]

di ako maka relate ah..hehehehe

[philmagi]

Any photos of the car and engine Mr. Philmagi?

Maxbuwaya,

Hi! I dont have yet photo of my car for others to see. But, I am glad you want to know and meet me this sunday AM, and with my car I assume. I leave in XXX, Las Pinas, near corner Concha Cruz/ Elizalde and there is Alabang Town Center (ATC) where we could meet. I suggest the place be at Star Bucks, 10 am, Madrigal Ave. My car will be the 02 Nissan Exalta Grandeur, silver, plate number XXX-XXX.

I have been alone in this project for sometime, except with the internet. Many are apprehensive about it, including my family, until I produced a mini hho torch one day and demonstrated it to burn garbage pile and cut small wires. Mileage gain in the city is not appalling to them for its no great feat to achieve the modest gain with just good driving habit or just leaning the AFR without the hho as Mr. Gosthunter is saying too, but on the hi-way, they start wondering on the larger gain. I can not blame them because of lots of scams out there.

Others, in this forum aware of this hho project are most welcome, including you Mr. Ghosthunter. The breakfast is on me. Thank your for your suggestion for informing me that the an O2 sensor maybe located farther down the exhaust. My Nissan O2 is immediately after exhaust manifold and can be seen from the top. Will try to lift corolla this am and look for that small item down under, and with a single wire.

I have extra O2 sensor spacer, or just wrap it with aluminum foil to maintain the heat. Main O2 sensors are operational only when temperature is 600 deg F or higher, and until then the ECU is in open loop with rich AFR, like an automatic choke. I can understand when the fan starts working and also cooling this sensor, a bad plce to locate it if it is there, unintentionally I supposed. Many are not aware of this critical small item until it starts giving problems. My wife would care less as long as the car wheels are running, the door revolves about its hinges, and thats all to it. Why not.

See you then this Sunday AM, Star-bucks, Madrigal Ave., ATC, Las Pinas. I have a thinning hair line, or lost all my hair already if you will, and its easy to recognize me.

philmagi.

[philmagi]

Maxbuwaya;

Corrections! It will be 9:00 am Sun, same place.

Philmagi

[speed unlimited]

Goodluck on your project.

[philmagi]

* philmagi

I also drive a 99 Toyota Corolla 1.6 GLi A/T. The original exhaust manifold has the oxygen sensor installed at the lower section. The original oxygen sensor is a single wire type which is sensitive to the temperature. When the fans activate, the sensor readings fluctuate too much to be useful. Either insulate the sensor (exhaust wrap) or relocate sensor away from the radiator fans. I know this because I used to have a digital meter connected to the stock O2 sensor.

As for your gains in fuel mileage... you might want to reconsider the gains. Without anything else, I typically manage a FC of around 5 to 6 km/L in city traffic (mandaluyong, makati, sanjuan, pasig, cubao areas). Driving NLEX to Clark and back, I can manage 13+ km/L. Weekend driving in the city gets me around 8km/L. My FC figures might not be the same as yours but the percentage "gains" seems similar, doesn't it?

I am not trying to discount your "achievements" but this is just comparing my car's figures against yours.

BTW, just to let you know, I am currently using an Auto-LPG kit. Benefits is savings in fuel cost (between 35% to 45% savings) while getting the same FC and almost the same engine performance. If you want to read up on this, I can show you a link to the discussion thread for this.

Ghosthunter,

Hi! Philmagi here. I didnt have to bring Corolla to a service bay for a lift an look for that O2 sensor.I crawled under the car and couldnt find an O2 sensor. The car was bought by my wife 6 yrs ago for her own service. However, the reg plate number is XXX-XXX, unsually low for 1999 model, and checked reg. Its a late model 1998, not 1999 as earlier said. It is not the same as your 1999 model.

Anyway, there is no O2 sensor to address in my corolla, and pressumed the ECU program mapping excluded it byTOYOTA for this Phil version. It relies mainly on the MAP to detect manifold absolute pressure vacuum for afr adjustments.

Thanks for solving a simple riddle for quite sometime on why my plate number is lower, though at the end of series of number allocations.

Philmagi.

[ghosthunter]

Ghosthunter,

Hi! Philmagi here. I didnt have to bring Corolla to a service bay for a lift an look for that O2 sensor.I crawled under the car and couldnt find an O2 sensor. The car was bought by my wife 6 yrs ago for her own service. However, the reg plate number is uuw-983, unsually low for 1999 model, and checked reg. Its a late model 1998, not 1999 as earlier said. It is not the same as your 1999 model.

Anyway, there is no O2 sensor to address in my corolla, and pressumed the ECU program mapping excluded it byTOYOTA for this Phil version. It relies mainly on the MAP to detect manifold absolute pressure vacuum for afr adjustments.

Thanks for solving a simple riddle for quite sometime on why my plate number is lower, though at the end of series of number allocations.

Philmagi.

Regarding the missing O2 sensor, your explanation could be the reason because my car is the actual 99' model with extended bumpers, "new" style tail-lights & front grill, toyota emblem on hood, etc.

I assume your GLi is the model with short length bumpers and "horizontal" type tail-lights?

If so, I didn't know that the 98-down and 99-up AE111 Corolla differed under the "skin" at all. I thought the difference was all cosmetic.

[MAXBUWAYA]

Just photos mr phil.
Just curious what the engine looks like

Anyway even if we met up, like actor21 i will not be able to relate any of the technical discussion of the said project.

Just the avergage consumer here, looking and waiting for the miracle.

Goodluck on the project though hope it goes public

[philmagi]

Just photos mr phil.
Just curious what the engine looks like

Anyway even if we met up, like actor21 i will not be able to relate any of the technical discussion of the said project.

Just the avergage consumer here, looking and waiting for the miracle.

Goodluck on the project though hope it goes public

MAXBUWAYA,

Hi! Thanks for the reply, and will ask help from my son to prepare pictures and post it here on what I have been doing. Though there are better pictures and videos in the web. One day, I would be able to show my work for others, improve on it, and be copied for free, if worth at all. Sorry, but I am new in forums like this, and not acquainted with terms and abbrevations being used. What is DIY and BTW?

Its for the public, and I must admit that it is not my original and is of antiquity. But there are recent developments on its applicability. Its just that I am able to relate fast and putting them togther considering my background in power combustion engineering and power plants.

What you see in my profile is what I am, including my address and tel numbers, no holds barred. I am enjoying this kind of communication and hoping that I dont get carried away. My wife is noticing it for the last few days. My daughter even advised me not to give away my real identity in forum like this, be ready in too personal comments, and even told me "huwag akong mag balat sibuyas kasi talagang gayan diyan" - hmmm. I wil get use to it.

Thanks, and hoping to personally see all you guys curious on this project.

philmagi

[ghosthunter]

*philmagi

I strongly suggest you remove the personal and contact info from your profile and send them via PM (private message) directly to the person(s) you want to have the information. Also best to keep your real name off the message boards as well for your own security, safety and ease of mind.

The internet is just a tool. You can never know who and what are his intentions of the person at the other side of the screen.

[philmagi]

*philmagi

I strongly suggest you remove the personal and contact info from your profile and send them via PM (private message) directly to the person(s) you want to have the information. Also best to keep your real name off the message boards as well for your own security, safety and ease of mind.

The internet is just a tool. You can never know who and what are his intentions of the person at the other side of the screen.

Ghosthunter,

Thanks for the advise, and just did that. No wonder the Moderator omitted my CP and Tel numbers in one earlier message.

philmagi

[dvldoc]

Really guys are we doing this again with the water4gas

I have two cars with HHO systems and mileage 15-25% in city driving, 40-60% on hi-way, less pollution by 50-80% according to exhaust gas emission. They are my '99 corrola a/t 1.6 gli and 02 Nissan Gradeur a/t 1.6 li. The original milelages of these cars relatively low. This car are not runnig on hho, but gasoline. The hho gas as product of pulse width electrolysis is injected into the ICE, and properly addressing the ECU sensor signals. MAP, MAF, and O2 sensors are enhanced.

2000P for you to post those emission test on the board by September 16th.

Nuff said why, because it will never happen.

Should be easy enough to have a before and after.

Or will we just get, oh i lost the copy of the old one or I cannot find it, or some other excuse not to actually post it up.

By the way no OBD-2 computer will allow you to remove more than 20% of your commanded fueling. You'll put the car in limp home mode if it does not see the proper fueling and will limit you max rpms around 3500. Theres alot more than a few sensors that controll the fueling and the hard coded stuff cannot be changed without a power programer that actually plugs into your OBD-2 port like what we use back in the states.

I'm pretty sure you do not have the ability to edit the short term and long term fuel trims or know how these are adjusted like most HHO's.

Even old OBD-1 computers will go into limp home mode when you start screwing around with the fueling that is commanded. So saying your getting 40% better economy is simply a false claim period.

[philmagi]

Really guys are we doing this again with the water4gas


2000P for you to post those emission test on the board by September 16th.

Nuff said why, because it will never happen.

Should be easy enough to have a before and after.

Or will we just get, oh i lost the copy of the old one or I cannot find it, or some other excuse not to actually post it up.

By the way no OBD-2 computer will allow you to remove more than 20% of your commanded fueling. You'll put the car in limp home mode if it does not see the proper fueling and will limit you max rpms around 3500. Theres alot more than a few sensors that controll the fueling and the hard coded stuff cannot be changed without a power programer that actually plugs into your OBD-2 port like what we use back in the states.

I'm pretty sure you do not have the ability to edit the short term and long term fuel trims or know how these are adjusted like most HHO's.

Even old OBD-1 computers will go into limp home mode when you start screwing around with the fueling that is commanded. So saying your getting 40% better economy is simply a false claim period.

dvidoc,

Hi! Beleive or not beleive, I will be posting emission test results not for the bet, but for all its worth to those in the HHO project. Thanks for reminding me and will take the opportunity to do some testworks too, due to sme other issues. I dont want to go into arguments as I am relating my experience only. However, I was told that the oxygen sensor signal can be processed electronically/ mechanically by the use of an electronic fuel injection enhancer (EFIE) or mecahnically with O2 retractor/isolator before it goes to the ECU for continuous up/down trimming to the ideal 14.7:1 AFR. This is sort of piggy back that may result into fooling the ECU mapping from open to close mode, e.i the O2 differene in the exhaust gas and atmosphere. Remember the "S" curve in Voltage and lean/rich graph of the ECU program? I just did the mechanical version, and an EFIE (electronic version) is arriving. The current method seems to fool the ECU, and apparently working.

I understand ECU limp mode atitude to protect the AFR in the ideal mode as well as the engine, but the issue is to enhance the O2 sensor as to fool the ECU - it is a stupid computer. In addition, the MAF sensor signal, a voltage varaiant not the frequency variant is also enhanced whith electronic I made from DEECO parts in RAON. The coolant temperature seems not to be bothering the results except on cold startup, but the MAP sensor (hot wire to measure air volume flow and temperature to indicate air density). On the crank position for ignition timing i had to adjust personally for best results. On speed, it does have an opening for best HHO operation, ie. cruising and max of 100 kph.

I would want to order an "opec" circuit board to over ride the ECU programming but needs flashing of the OEM programming, nit OBD I or OBD II, for polltion comtrol. I am happy with the current setup and is still learning. If I need help, i will ask for it. Whether I am an expert or not will not then really be an issue.

Thanks for reminding me of the test works and to ask for help.

philmagi.

[philmagi]

dvidoc,

Hi! Beleive or not beleive, I will be posting emission test results not for the bet, but for all its worth to those in the HHO project. Thanks for reminding me and will take the opportunity to do some testworks too, due to sme other issues. I dont want to go into arguments as I am relating my experience only. However, I was told that the oxygen sensor signal can be processed electronically/ mechanically by the use of an electronic fuel injection enhancer (EFIE) or mecahnically with O2 retractor/isolator before it goes to the ECU for continuous up/down trimming to the ideal 14.7:1 AFR. This is sort of piggy back that may result into fooling the ECU mapping from open to close mode, e.i the O2 differene in the exhaust gas and atmosphere. Remember the "S" curve in Voltage and lean/rich graph of the ECU program? I just did the mechanical version, and an EFIE (electronic version) is arriving. The current method seems to fool the ECU, and apparently working.

I understand ECU limp mode atitude to protect the AFR in the ideal mode as well as the engine, but the issue is to enhance the O2 sensor as to fool the ECU - it is a stupid computer. In addition, the MAF sensor signal, a voltage varaiant not the frequency variant is also enhanced whith electronic I made from DEECO parts in RAON. The coolant temperature seems not to be bothering the results except on cold startup, but the MAP sensor (hot wire to measure air volume flow and temperature to indicate air density). On the crank position for ignition timing i had to adjust personally for best results. On speed, it does have an opening for best HHO operation, ie. cruising and max of 100 kph.

I would want to order an "opec" circuit board to over ride the ECU programming but needs flashing of the OEM programming, nit OBD I or OBD II, for polltion comtrol. I am happy with the current setup and is still learning. If I need help, i will ask for it. Whether I am an expert or not will not then really be an issue.

Thanks for reminding me of the test works and to ask for help.

philmagi.

Corrections : MAF not MAP for that with hot wire fore air volume measurement, another wire for air density at current temp, three wire MAF.

May I please say that time is not on my side as this is only a hobby, I still work for others. I will be at the minesite this thu, back fri. will be able to do emission test works early next week. After this, let us just test drive my car. Perhaps I can pick up some ideas from you or anyone, my purpose in joining this forum. I could be wrong.

Same.

[dvldoc]

You have still failed to explain how you can save even 30% of fuel when your ECU will not allow you to remove that much fuel. The ECU will auto adjust itself to most modifications (i.e) little spoofs to fool voltage and re-adjust to keep the proper air fuel ratio. Please provide photos of the SAFC you are using because it takes a lot more than a couple of resistors to make one.

Like all HHO threads nobody ever comes up with any hard evidence, Plus emission test will not really tell anything about gains in KPL.

Water injection knocks emissions down almost 75% to 80% on turbo diesels but they do not gain 30% better fuel economy and the reduction is even higher in gas engines but once again it does not translate into huge increases in fuel economy.

[philmagi]

dvidoc,

Hi! I failed to notice you are in Guam, USA. Anyway, thank you for your comments, and they could help in some evaluations I am doing. Will post pictures on my electronic circuitry. with the help of my daughter/son. They are basically the MAP enhancer, MAF enhancer, pulse width modulator (PWM, with L/C/R elements, potentiometer, am[ gauge, blower and a mofet diode on a Al heat sink, blower, etc. to drive my electrolyzer at 13.8 volts volts at 100hz) bought and priamrily to control amperage.

The PWM is a 90 yr radio telecom circuitry and sometime used for motor speed control in most mine beneficiation plants we designed, built, and operated in the philippines and one in Malysia, but does nothing much on the engine performance, but only on HHO production. Will also update you once the small "EFIE" board (tag internet on what it is all about) arrives to replace my mechanical O2 sensor enhancer to fool the O2 signal. It cost me a hard earned US $ 50, excluding freight.

True, the emission test results will not indicate mileage, but pollution redution is one of my primordial purposes for the HHO system, the other is for mileage improvement, never on running car with pure water. It cost me a radiator for over reving the engine once while racing up Baguio City from Metro Mla, and was too late to realize that my car is an economy car, not a racing car.

My rpm can reach 5000 rpm with the HHO for a short time only, and rare I floor the accelerator pedal with the MIL indicator not lighting. This was in the early stage, perhaps foolish for me to do that again.

Will post pictures, also requested earlier by another forum member.

Thank you once again.

philmagi

[KERSMcRae]

di ako maka relate ah..hehehehe

ako rin. dami ko na i-backread. 2 das lang ako hindi naka-log, dami na discussions dito. paano kaya i-rate itong thread na to?

Ghosthunter,

Thanks for the advise, and just did that. No wonder the Moderator omitted my CP and Tel numbers in one earlier message.

philmagi

sabi ko na nga e. buti na lang....
Related yata ito sa "nagulping" Dingle-HHO-invention" thread! ha ha ha.

> Excited na din ako na makita ang pictures ng project mo sir philmagi!

[philmagi]

To all those in the HHO Project,

This particular project I am into is governed by the followin:

1. Primary Objective - Reduce pollution and Mileage improvement.

2. Standard - No Engine/ECU conversion, qualifies for tax rebate re US fuel economy program, and could pass the US "Magnossom Law" (issue on car warranty due to additional accessory(s) and/or auxiliary.,

Some of my colleagues in the US are enjoying all of the above items. Here in the phlippines, i am not sure if there is any law to uphold warranty with additional accessories.

One of the provisions on US tax rebate scheme on fuel economy is that the fuel saving device, alternative fuel, and the like must be a continuous device, not occasional. At this stage, my HHO system can not qualify because of the on/off switch for both the hydrogen generator and sensor signal enhancers during this test period.

It is a tough order at this stage in the philippines, I think so. I am not givin up yet. On the financials as it is not much, i can afford. On the technical, I need help. In the industrial application, programmable logic control (PLC) are more straight forward; on/off, low/med/high, and sme minor variations, basically that is it.

In automotive, it is more complicated to address the acceleration, decelration, cruising, overtaking, parking, and unexpected maneuverings specially housewives and children. The HHO system is not that simple and user friendly yet. I have to open the hood every morning, check on the electrolyte on weekends, gets burnt on high strengthvNaOH/distilled water solution.

Sometimes I think of giving up this hobby and instead improve on my piano playing with my grandchildren. Regarding, Mr. D. D. the Filipino who claims to run car on pure water, I will be glad to meet him one day. I have a promise to keep and post items on the board.

philmagi

Regards.

[KERSMcRae]

To all those in the HHO Project,

This particular project I am into is governed by the followin:

1. Primary Objective - Reduce pollution and Mileage improvement.

2. Standard - No Engine/ECU conversion, qualifies for tax rebate re US fuel economy program, and could pass the US "Magnossom Law" (issue on car warranty due to additional accessory(s) and/or auxiliary.,

Some of my colleagues in the US are enjoying all of the above items. Here in the phlippines, i am not sure if there is any law to uphold warranty with additional accessories.

One of the provisions on US tax rebate scheme on fuel economy is that the fuel saving device, alternative fuel, and the like must be a continuous device, not occasional.

Law? I would say motoring laws here in our country are the (most) crazy compared to other nations, > love me or hate me on this.

Sometimes, I call these laws on other forums as "malasadong batas". Say in the U.S., you get tax incentives/rebates if you buy/use hybrid vehicles. But here, it's the opposite. You're punished for buying one because of heavy taxes (but at least, you wont go to jail). Majority of our lawmakers are geniuses at their personal gain.

OT: speaking of government position, somebody suggested here that Tsikot may (need to) seek a congressional position (partylist), to be or can be represented by ...G# (ahem, ahem). This way, the chaotic Philippine motoring, traffic, laws , enforcement, etc. might have a chance to improve in the next few years/decade.

[philmagi]

REf HHO Project

Ref info on the ff:

1. US Federal Law
Magnuson-Moss Waranty Act
US Code - Title 15 Chapter 50
s€ection 2301-2312

Provisions in law that upholds waranty of cars manufacturers even with the addition of accessories/auxillary like HHO gas into the engine as an enhancer. I am not sure if the Phillipines has a similar law.

2. Please tag in internet "fuel economy.gov" for provisions for the HHO system to qualify for US IRS Tax rebate for the fuel economy program

Philmag

[ghosthunter]

OT: speaking of government position, somebody suggested here that Tsikot may (need to) seek a congressional position (partylist), to be or can be represented by ...G# (ahem, ahem). This way, the chaotic Philippine motoring, traffic, laws , enforcement, etc. might have a chance to improve in the next few years/decade.

Have a cough drop.