Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[ringostarr]

Wrong. Water is only a good way to conduct energy either through chemical or kinetic energy. Water itself is NOT a source of power.

like geothermal/heating and waterfalls lang ba, i think not.

if you say water has no power, then how come firemen use it to kill fire.

heat is essentially full of energy, hence power.

heat is what is generated by fire.

if there's a fire, you spray it with water. and both the heat and fire die down.

like all things being equal, if an element like water has that energy to kill heat and fire, then it only explains that water has that distinct energy to kill off another energy.

====

and that is only the tip of the iceberg, i havent mention how water has the power to destroy a submerged wall or skyscraper or a paper, or even a cheese chip.

and what about ionic water drinks, the manufacturers play/experiment with the ions of the water for us sports people to have energy drinks.

[dvldoc]

posted this for information purposes, and to see if others have already tried this here. on the www.fordmods.com, people down in australia are experimenting with this and having results. i am not selling this or anything, i even wanted to post the link to the .pdf for the manual but not sure if its against the rules. if anyone is interested, go to the fordmods.com link posted somewhere up there and its on page 1 or 2.

i'm just someone looking to improve the fuel efficiency of my car which is at 4km/l, and where i live its 99% stop/go city driving. no LPG installer yet, and gas is still going up.

question, is it really proven as a myth? like 100% sure? www.auto-facts.org seems like a reliable source of info since its based on the author's own experiences. read his blog about his HHO experiment :D

You really can't be that easily fooled, Its the same people that sale the stuff, They are one of the biggest marketing scam artist out there every link posted is all from people who are selling the product, It's called a pyramid sceme it's designed to do one thing take your money. They made sure is you typed in Water4gas scam that it linked up to articles that state how it actually works. Still a scam never the less. You can copy and paste all the article from their sites you want but it still does not work.

If you can find one vehicle and I mean one that actually has a certified test that shows increased HP via a dyno (more power at less rpms is the only way to get better MPG Period) using less fuel to make the same amount of power is how that works. You can spin it all you want but it does not change the facts. All the silly little youtube videos are just that, You don't see any real results on a internal combustion engine. If this worked so well it's funny how you cannot find anything but silly stories with no proof to back it up of hp gains.


If your so conviced it works put it on your own vehicle and get it tested then you can see how you wasted your money. The fact they use about $20 in parts should clue you in. Seriously a glass mason jar Get a clue folks. Very clever marketing, They even get suckers to buy books full of bogus science. One of the slickest get rich quick marketing scams going and still working.

Ever notice people that post this crap are new to the board, And guess what never have it on there own car if it has so many benefits, but they want you to be convinced it works so well. Lets see your car with you staning next to it with the water4gas junk installed, Guess what folks it will never happen. This should tell you a little something

These guys must never read the boards this has been discussed to death already. Good try though but might work better on a group of people that like real test and facts.

[xykosomatik]

IMO the idea of getting hydrogen and oxygen gas from water via electrolysis with a 12v dc (with roughly more than 10Amperes on hand) car battery is NOT a myth.

not just your opinion, some people down under also believe it is feasible and are experimenting with their carbed, efi'ed, or turbo-ed diesels and getting results.

as far as they are concerned, its not a scam since they got the information freely on the net, through materials from some companies, forums etc etc and putting the relevant or working bits together in creating their own water4gas systems. and from their experiences, i gather that its not unlike the LPG setups for diesel engines, the water4gas producing enough HHO to replace SOME of the gasoline needed to fuel the combustion. and since the HHO is produced and not purchased, that is where the savings come from. with the LPG'ed diesel, the cheaper LPG contributes to the savings.

producing the HHO also doesn't put more load on the alternator, since the electrolyzer consumes the same energy as an ordinary headlight.

again, this is what i gather from reading their forums, no first hand info YET... let me just find enough time to build me an electrolyzer and upload a video of me exploding an HHO-filled balloon


and please let us keep this thread informative... arguments are welcome provided they have serious points of rebuttal, like ghosthunter's and others. honestly seeing someone's lenghty posts here always filled with hydrogen sulfide gives me a headache.:peace:

[uls]

Know why people go for the water-for-fuel crap?

Coz people would like to believe it.

Coz people are sick of paying for petrol.

people would like to believe they can fill up their fuel tanks with water.

So any guy who comes along with a water for fuel contraption will get a lot of attention.

-----------------------------

Re what ringgo said:

water producing energy like geothermal, hydroelectric

Re hydroelectric... dude, it's not the water. it's gravity.

how the hell can water spin a turbine if it wasnt flowing downwards?

Try producing electricity with stagnant water.

---------

Re geothermal... dude it's not the water, it's the underground heat.

Something had to heat the water under the ground, turning the water into steam, and the steam is used to spin a turbine.

To turn water into steam, u need to heat the water. So something has to be generating the heat to heat the water.

Try heating water with water.

----------

get over it dudes. water isnt fuel.

Our body, the most advanced machine ever made, can use a wide variety of things as fuel.

Any kind of food that contains carbohydrates and fats can be burned as fuel by our bodies.

But we can't use water as fuel.

If water can be used as fuel, then billions of years of evolution would probably have turned out some organism that uses water as fuel since water is so abundant in nature.

[redorange]

maybe the approach is wrong. for us humans to fully utilize the benefits of hydrogen, we should remove the wheel and make automobiles hover or fly first before we open the idea of running hydrogen machines

if you say hydrogen has an abundance in the atmosphere, then stop thinking inside the box and make cars as light as air

like this one:




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4643575.stm

so instead of trying to extract the hydrogen from the H20 which will require more power than an V6 gasoline engine, why not let the cars fly/hover first, and let the flying cars sniff hydrogen in the hydrogen-abundant atmosphere

Are you serious? You want all the people with cars to fly their own aircraft? Do you have any idea how crowded the sky is already with just regular planes and helicopters flying? You want to add Juan Dela Cruz with his little aircraft to fly to work along with all the other people using the same mode of transport. Somebody has been watching a little to much of The Jetsons cartoon on TV. Well I guess that's one way of controlling the human population of the world, a minor fender bender now turns into a aircraft crash falling on the population below.

[xykosomatik]

You really can't be that easily fooled, Its the same people that sale the stuff, They are one of the biggest marketing scam artist out there every link posted is all from people who are selling the product, It's called a pyramid sceme it's designed to do one thing take your money. They made sure is you typed in Water4gas scam that it linked up to articles that state how it actually works. Still a scam never the less. You can copy and paste all the article from their sites you want but it still does not work........

well, aside from that one site i posted, all my readings came from forums. i too am skeptical after getting hits that shows almost the same info, so i ignored those and instead checked the forums. and in those forums, no one is selling anything but sharing freely what they are doing in their own systems. not unlike linux forums :D

[redorange]

not just your opinion, some people down under also believe it is feasible and are experimenting with their carbed, efi'ed, or turbo-ed diesels and getting results.

as far as they are concerned, its not a scam since they got the information freely on the net, through materials from some companies, forums etc etc and putting the relevant or working bits together in creating their own water4gas systems. and from their experiences, i gather that its not unlike the LPG setups for diesel engines, the water4gas producing enough HHO to replace SOME of the gasoline needed to fuel the combustion. and since the HHO is produced and not purchased, that is where the savings come from. with the LPG'ed diesel, the cheaper LPG contributes to the savings.

producing the HHO also doesn't put more load on the alternator, since the electrolyzer consumes the same energy as an ordinary headlight.

again, this is what i gather from reading their forums, no first hand info YET... let me just find enough time to build me an electrolyzer and upload a video of me exploding an HHO-filled balloon


and please let us keep this thread informative... arguments are welcome provided they have serious points of rebuttal, like ghosthunter's and others. honestly seeing someone's lenghty posts here always filled with hydrogen sulfide gives me a headache.:peace:

Let's consider this for a moment. If this technology is true and not a myth don't you think a car maker would have used it in their cars by now? With the price of oil now approaching $200 wouldn't it be a smart business move for an automaker to use this technology on their cars? It would guarantee that you could sell any model car you have as people around the world would flock to your cars just to save on the expense of fuel cost. Heck, GM, Ford, and Chrysler would jump on this since they are having a hard time selling their vehicles and this would almost be the light they are looking for to get out of the sales slump. Oh wait, but they have a conspiracy with the oil companies right? Sure raising the price of fuel will make them sell more cars that consume lots of gas. Uhmm, no. That's not what is happening most of the automakers are selling less vehicles because of the price of fuel. Higher fuel cost means less expendable income for most consumers because higher fuel cost also equates to higher food, electricity, and consumer goods cost. All this means is that the consumer will have less money to buy that brand new car they want because they have other things more important than a new car they can for that money.

Edit: There's an old saying "If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is".

[DonT]

Does anybody know here how much Hydrogen (in kgs) is required to run a car?

Just to put things in perspective..LPG (used by cars) probably contain around 11kgs of fuel.

A Hydrogen cylinder with the same size can only contain around half kilo or even less. However, it only has 3 times the energy value compared to LPG..So you have to load at least 7 H2 cylinders in that vehicle to get the same mileage as the LPG car. I wonder where the passengers will sit.

Lastly, I have a H2 Electrolysis unit here where I work...and with a capacity of 10kgs per hr...it consumes electricity enough to light up a small town.

[ringostarr]

Our body, the most advanced machine ever made, can use a wide variety of things as fuel.

Any kind of food that contains carbohydrates and fats can be burned as fuel by our bodies.

But we can't use water as fuel.

how come uls we can't survive 3 days without water but we can survive almost a month without food?

If water can be used as fuel, then billions of years of evolution would probably have turned out some organism that uses water as fuel since water is so abundant in nature.

that explains life on earth vs. no life in mars. dba't NASA's main concern was to find water first in Mars in order for them to assume that there can be life there

[ghosthunter]

how come uls we can't survive 3 days without water but we can survive almost a month without food?

that explains life on earth vs. no life in mars. dba't NASA's main concern was to find water first in Mars in order for them to assume that there can be life there

Ever wonder how Ringostarr/Oldblue can survive without a brain?

[ghosthunter]

Does anybody know here how much Hydrogen (in kgs) is required to run a car?

Just to put things in perspective..LPG (used by cars) probably contain around 11kgs of fuel.

Actually, its closer to 22kgs.

[ghosthunter]

maybe the approach is wrong. for us humans to fully utilize the benefits of hydrogen, we should remove the wheel and make automobiles hover or fly first before we open the idea of running hydrogen machines

if you say hydrogen has an abundance in the atmosphere, then stop thinking inside the box and make cars as light as air

I think you are halfway there.... your brain is already made of air.

so instead of trying to extract the hydrogen from the H20 which will require more power than an V6 gasoline engine, why not let the cars fly/hover first, and let the flying cars sniff hydrogen in the hydrogen-abundant atmosphere

I think someone has been sniffing glue for a bit too long.

[ghosthunter]

producing the HHO also doesn't put more load on the alternator, since the electrolyzer consumes the same energy as an ordinary headlight.

Is that a guess or a factual statement?... Where is your hard data to prove that statement? Have you done any controlled experimentation in this area? Do you have a working electrolysis cell of any sort? Can it also produce enough hydrogen/oxygen mix to make a difference to an engine's fuel requirement?

If your answer is NO, then it might simply be better to quit while you are ahead.

[ghosthunter]

not just your opinion, some people down under also believe it is feasible and are experimenting with their carbed, efi'ed, or turbo-ed diesels and getting results.

At the same time, some people believe that Elvis is still alive. Uh-huh!... thank you very much!

[CoDer]

Ever wonder how Ringostarr/Oldblue can survive without a brain?

Nyahahahaaa! Pinapatulan mo naman kase, talo ka paps.

[uls]

how come uls we can't survive 3 days without water but we can survive almost a month without food?



that explains life on earth vs. no life in mars. dba't NASA's main concern was to find water first in Mars in order for them to assume that there can be life there

I knew you would say that.

coz we would die of dehydration. Not loss of fuel.

im not saying water isnt important to our bodies. It is VERY important for many biochemical processes. (like elimination of waste, maintaining body temp. etc)

But our bodies do not use water as fuel. That's my point.

If u don't eat for a month and just drink water, ur body will break down stored fat and skeletal muscle for fuel.

But ur body won't be using the water for fuel.

[judoman]

bmw di ba may hydrogen 7? yung 1 series na tubig powered? tsaka yung honda meron na nito dati pa. di naman mauubos tubig kasi tubig din yung buga nito sa exhaust. tpos naddistribute naman uli kasi may cycle naman ang tubig

[xykosomatik]

Is that a guess or a factual statement?... Where is your hard data to prove that statement? Have you done any controlled experimentation in this area? Do you have a working electrolysis cell of any sort? Can it also produce enough hydrogen/oxygen mix to make a difference to an engine's fuel requirement?

If your answer is NO, then it might simply be better to quit while you are ahead.

its a statement based on 2nd hand info. i have YET to experiment this myself, since i just came across this stuff a few days back. one of the reasons i started this thread is to see if anyone else had tried this, either to prove OR disprove it. i can ask the same thing myself, if anyone here have tried it himself to disprove it, or just basing it, like i do, from articles and info on the net and coming to the conclusion that it is in fact a myth. so, has anyone?

i hope this thread would turn out to be fruitful either way, and not become a "bashing" thread.

EDIT: here's another guide to build our own HHO elecrolyzer. well illustrated, well explained.
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

[donbuggy]

from Popular Mechanics' Mike Allen's Weekly Online Auto Clinic:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...c/4260857.html
April 25, 2008

Q: Have you ever heard of HHO gas and its ability to significantly boost your MPG? The system is based on producing HHO gas from water by using electrolysis, the water is supplied by a container under your hood. The electricity is provided by the vehicle's battery. I have seen many postings of improved fuel efficiently ranging from 15% - 50%. If this is true, why doesn't the automotive industry provide this already? The system could be homemade and materials should be under $100, it would pay for itself in a month or two.

A: I'll label it a hoax right here.

The whole principle ignores the 2nd law of thermodynamics. In short: there can never be enough energy gained from burning the HHO to provide enough electricity to disassociate the water. Otherwise, it's perpetual motion.

Mileage increases? Voodoo.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...c/4264014.html
May 16, 2008

Q: In a previous column you stated that the second law of thermodynamics invalidates HHO energy production. First, understand how a car works. The gasoline engine is already running, consuming gasoline and at the same time spins the alternator to supply electrical energy and recharge the battery. This is already a static load built into the system. Simply tapping into this electrical production has no additional load on the engine, thus consuming no additional energy. Therefore the production of HHO “Browns gas” is without a direct “energy cost” to the overall system. If you are going to site scientific fact, understand the formula first.

A: Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It takes power to spin the alternator, power which comes from the engine. Draw more current from the alternator, and it takes more power replace it. The alternator load is not fixed. The alternator output varies with the electrical load. It has a fixed drain from the engine and fuel pump, but stuff like turning on the headlights or the a/c—or the HHO generator—will draw more current. Which requires more fuel. More fuel than you can get from the gas generator.

Entropy—not just a good idea, it’s the law.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...c/4267494.html
June 6, 2008

Q: I have a question about your answer in last week's column on HHO. You are correct. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed - that is entropy. And yes, the law does apply to the production of HHO utilizing the electrical generator in the car. The HHO generator puts a load on the generator which in turn puts a load on the engine which then consumes more fuel in order to support the additional load. But, if I were to utlize solar panels (12V/25W) to solely provide the necessary energy to create the HHO which is then combusted in the engine, then there is no additional load on the engine. The solar panels weight approx. 2.8lbs and are .03in thick - minimal wind drag and additional weight on the car. Using this configuration, then yes, you will see a significant increase in fuel economy - correct?

A: Sigh. A significant increase in fuel economy? No.

Let’s do the math...
Okay. You’ve postulated a 25 watt solar cell, park this in the sun for a generous 23 hrs per day, stipulating that we live on the equator. The cells are not oriented directly to the sun full-time, so we’ll stipulate the cell’s output is 25x12 watt-hours x 0.5, roughly 150 watt-hours/day. That’s enough energy into the battery to provide roughly 10 amps at 12.6 volts for one hour to run our HHO generator.

Suppose, instead we just put that electricity into the battery pack of a hybrid car instead of generating HHO. The Chevy Volt has a projected range of 40 miles that should deplete the battery by 16 kwh battery pack by 8,000 watt-hours.

So, out solar cells will take 53 days to recharge the battery pack enough to drive 40 miles. That’s a little over a mile per day. A sunny day, not a cloudy one.

Now let’s use that same electricity to make HHO. Some of the electricity turns into heat in the gas generator. Some is lost in heat to the wires to the generator—but we’ll simply ignore those losses. If our gas generator uses 10 amps to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen, that’s roughly 120 watts, for one hour, until we’ve consumed the electricity the solar cells have added to the battery. One horsepower is 746 watts. So we’re pumping roughly 1/6 of a horsepower into the intake manifold in the form of HHO. It takes on the order of 5-10 horsepower to make a car run 60 mph. Multiply the 1/6 hp by the efficiency of the internal combustion engine burning gasoline or diesel fuel, and I’ll stipulate a generous 30% for that, and you get roughly 0.5%. Consequently, the HHO is contributing a potential one-half of one percent to the vehicle’s fuel economy. Probably less.

And remember, that’s a 100+ mpg Chevy Volt that doesn’t exist yet. Adding and HHO generator to your 14 mpg pickup will have so little effect it couldn’t be measured. I defy anyone without access to a major, lab-grade engine dynamometer to even find that 1/2%. And that’s with the “free energy” we’re getting from the solar cells. If we have to burn fuel to run the alternator, we get less than nothing, because he IC engine only recovers at most 30% of the energy we put into the intake as hydrogen.

It sure ain’t the 3-100% improvement the websites are claiming.

[dvldoc]

Lets face it the only people posting about this stuff are marketing it even if not in a direct way, It's BS science that cannot show any real gains period, When challenged for real results they will always fold and fade away. Much like the famed water powered car that the owner will not allow emission test, road test, or inspection or photography of the under side of the car. Fraud is fraud no matter how you cut it. Tons of this junk popping up on ebay these days as well, Looks like a good scam to get into if your only about money and not honesty.