Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[artnesmith]

In my haste to post information on calculating efficiency I may have not made things quite clear. The part of the volume of HHO generated that is oxygen has no BTU value. But the formula already takes that into account, so you don't need to multiply the total volume by 2/3. Just use the total volume and the BTUs are already figured only on the hydrogen part.

For really good information on this and how to spot outrageous or outright dishonest production claims, watch this very informative video:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvfD2Sk86EU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvfD2Sk86EU[/ame]

Keeping a calculator handy I can find someone, usually on E-Bay, making claims about a hydrogen generator that just can't be true or they are just making big mistakes. Usually they are doing this to sell a unit to unsuspecting people that don't know the possibilities. I know of one person to buy a unit off of the Internet that could not even perform to 30% of advertised production.

[dvldoc]

Bottom line you could make your own DIY water injection system and get better results than HHO will ever produce on a dyno. Hell you could pour brandy in there and it will kill HHO.





Now why do I post these dynos?, Look how much effeicency we have added to the vehicles engine without changing boost, timing, no tweaks anywere just pour and go.

Here is the reason why, even raising HP 20% will not yield a 15% increase in fuel economy. Even at 50% it's hard to get close to 20% better economy.

So to the HHO crowd, how can something that nets almost zero gains in power which would prove effiececy as well as emissions testing give you 40%, 30% or 20% better fuel economy.

I can prove that it's a fact on any engine that if you make it work less for the same amount of hp (i.e using less fuel to produce the same amount of power) saves fuel.

How can something that does nothing towards increasing power or emmission reductions save fuel? Posting about how your bubbler works does not prove a thing, it does not matter how many watts, amps, volts ect it makes because you can't make more than 3 liter a minute no matter what you do. and as state time and time again adding 1/12000 or even 1/6000 of any gas into your vehicle will change nothing.

Also as stated methanol converts to hydrogen durring combustion, I don't know how this keeps getting ignored. It's producing more with a 1gph nozzle than any HHO kit on the market can do yet were are the giant gains?

I can bust the who HHO scam with one simple formula how do you not know steam reforming is.
Steam reforming of hydrocarbons is conventionally used in fuel processing to produce hydrogen.

And it's a endothermic reaction which consumes heat. Not makes heat like shooting hydrogen gas directly into your intake, Not a very smart thing to do. Thank god these kits don't make enough gas to be truly dangerous.

Methanol + steam => hydrogen + carbon
dioxide
CH3OH + H2O => 3 H2 + CO2

There now explain how making more hydrogen this why does not give the big claims of HHO kits.

Feel free to do the math HHO guys



If people all over the world running water/methanol systems all over the world run this and produce 20 to 50 times the hydrogen gas than any HHO system, without and drain on the vehicles power besides running a pump then how can HHO work as claimed. There are cars pushing 17gph to 60gph of meth though there engines. Do the math how much hydrogen is that compa

The fact the HHO crowd does not know this simple fact is sad

Here's the second kick in there guts, you could use methanol in your little bubbler and make twice the hydrogen at half the power yet you will still not get the gains claimed from these kits.

How do you guys not know this, I have posted it already yet it goes ignored.

http://www.methanol.org/pdf/JPL_DMFC.pdf

yet you guys claim your serious, Have you heard of the old phrase work smarter not harder?

The fact is You cannot pull enough fuel from modern vehicles to safely run enough hydrogen to effect major changes in fuel economy, Guess what happens if your system fails if you pull 20% to 30% of your factory fueling out. And god help you if your forced inducted and this happens.

That's right Here comes the BOOM

[artnesmith]

Once in the engine, the hydrogen produces a more complete combustion, according to Anderson, which means the engine more efficiently uses the fuel.

I'm just now getting around to reading all of the posts here. This one point is of particular interest to me because I've come to the conclusion the reason less than 1% hydrogen volume compared to gasoline has more than 10% benefit in performance due to the effect small traces of hydrogen have on the primary fuel, especially if that fuel is diesel.

I was reluctant to install one of these as a test on just any car, so I selected a car that would need an engine rebuild just in case there was engine damage. In test drives I would run most of the time with the hydrogen on to get information on mileage improvement. The base line on this particular 3.8 liter vehicle was 12-16.5 miles per gallon with 14 MPG being very typical due to number one spark plug becoming oil fouled during run times. As I ran this engine with the HHO turned on the plug fouling problem went away. I assumed the extra road time sealed up some leaky valve seals in the cylinder head on this engine that had sat idle for 18 years. Then in a two hour run with the HHO turned off the plug fouled, just like before. On a hunch I returned the plug to the cylinder without cleaning it. I ran this car around town for another day or two and the engine miss went away. Pulling the plug showed it to be perfectly clean. The trace amounts of HHO not only cleaned the plug somehow, but I believe the hotter flame point of the HHO was turning the motor oil into fuel. Mileage on this car on the highway doesn't vary so much with the HHO turned on, 24.5-25.3 MPG. Due to my spare time working with the hydrogen cells I've not rebuilt this engine yet, but so far seems to run great as long as it gets the HHO.

[artnesmith]

^^ bottomline... will a working HHO be run side-by-side vs alcohol-water mist system on a dyno to compare the performance?

This might be interesting, but clearly the alcohol injection has the most power and performance improvement. If you go back 12 months to the cells we HHO guys were building and comparing notes on you would see much less performance at higher amps. Since the discovery of dry cells we've gone from bragging about 40% efficiency Faraday to now 60%. Now some new nickel cells show performance near 80% Faraday. We aren't here to compete with alcohol injection nor do we sell these even if some people do. We want to learn and apply this technology to "see how far the wormhole goes."

Frankly, I don't see how the competition and comparison between alcohol injection and HHO started? Since I joined this forum I've been badgered about being a competitor that is trying to woo customers from guys selling alcohol injection. Maybe I should go back and read some of the early posts? I can't imagine what started all of this. Totally different concepts and goals.

Our HHO club has invested thousands of dollars into this for no other reason but to see what is possible. No commercial venture for us, just want to see how much HHO we can make at the lowest possible electrical consumption. Would be nice to hit overunity, but if JPL and NASA couldn't do it, not likely. A friend that works as an engineer at NASA said that the tests he was able to follow tended to be in the direction of hydrogen production for the use in a electric fuel cell that would enable long space trips, such as the possible expedition to Mars. Such a fuel cell, if achieving unity or more, would enable long periods of time in space without the need for batteries. The water by product would be recycled for more electrolysis or for use in other ways such as drinking water.

Lots of people claim overunity, but so far nothing documented. If HHO is to be tested, I believe those tests should be done in an accredited lab that uses testing methods that can be verified. Before anyone invests that kind of money they had better be sure they have something that works incredibly well first.

[dvldoc]

Frankly, I don't see how the competition and comparison between alcohol injection and HHO started? Since I joined this forum I've been badgered about being a competitor that is trying to woo customers from guys selling alcohol injection. Maybe I should go back and read some of the early posts? I can't imagine what started all of this. Totally different concepts and goals.

Maybe I should go back and read some of the early posts? I can't imagine what started all of this.

Yeah maybe you should actually read it
Once again your proving my point, Did you not read anything I just posted. Injecting methanol makes more hydrogen than any HHO kit on the market by a high percentage. That's the comparison. Did Steam reforming of methanol not show you anything? Did the formulas not show you anything, Let me put it down one more time so HHO guys can actually read and understand the comparison and why these kits or all but worthless. They cannot compete even with a simple methanol injection kit using a windshield washer pump. You could literlly use winter blend -20F washer fluid which is around 40% methanol and make more hydrogen than any HHO kit through the normal process of combustion.

Please explain how something that produces more hydrogen, Significantly more dose not have the bogus claims of major changes of fuel economy. Your also totally ignoring how even making a engine more physically use less fuel by making more effieicent even by 50% will not yield 40% gains in economy.



Methanol + steam => hydrogen + carbon
dioxide
CH3OH + H2O => 3 H2 + CO2

We aren't here to compete with alcohol injection nor do we sell these even if some people do. We want to learn and apply this technology to "see how far the wormhole goes."

Well maybe we are because it is proven injecting methanol/ethanol into a internal combustion engine produces along with water vapor far more hydrogen by volume than any HHO kit period. My proof can be found in real scientific studies by universities, and Federal government not some internet blog.
[SIZE=7]
CAN YOU PROVE OTHERWISE?
[/SIZE]

A friend that works as an engineer at NASA said that the tests he was able to follow tended to be in the direction of hydrogen production for the use in a electric fuel cell that would enable long space trips, such as the possible expedition to Mars.

Really I guess he failed to read this NASA study about using methanol to make hydrogen at a far more effiecient rate? Yet your still using water? And wasting engery to produce it.

http://www.methanol.org/pdf/JPL_DMFC.pdf

I believe those tests should be done in an accredited lab that uses testing methods that can be verified. Before anyone invests that kind of money they had better be sure they have something that works incredibly well first

Hello it's already been tested, and tested and tested, Even EPA certified labs have tested these kit. Were do you think the FTC got the basis of there claim against all these HHO kit claims to force them to stop advertising these claims?

Why are facts so hard to except? After 7 years of post and kits made by 1000's you even site there is no proof that the kits work. Yet you claim you get 40% better fuel economy on one of your vehicles with it. Can't be both ways.

If you goal is to produce hydrogen to promote fuel savings I have already showed you two ways to do it far more efficiently, Electrolysis of methanol and the simple injecting of a highly atomized mix of methanol and water. Not one forum will you find a single HHO post that even knows you can make more hydrogen with methanol at half the voltage as using water.

[artnesmith]

Greetings everyone! I have some questions for retuning EFI for HHO if anyone has experience here at the forum on this subject. I've found some companies that have some products that seem relatively inexpensive for this use. Here is a YouTube video on one such device:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VAQMFCY5s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VAQMFCY5s[/ame]

More links:
Green Tech Systems
http://www.hho-unlimited.com/servlet/the-Electronics-&-Tuning-Devices-cln-'EFIE'-Enhancers/Categories

Magnum Tuning
http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...ter-1234-wire1

http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...wire_wideband1

http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...r_hho_systems1

Other random links:
http://www.h202hho.com/products.html

http://www.hhoxygen.com/category-s/9.htm

http://www.burningwater4fuel.com/Ele...20Enhancer.htm

http://www.thegasmaker.com/hho_efie_map.htm

http://autofix.com.au/blog/archives/589

I've already put this out to our HHO group to get more feedback. I notice Zerofossilfuel has schematics to build these yourself. He does respond to communication and is very helpful:
http://www.alt-nrg.org/plans.html

On a side note, there are considerable differences between the HHO and alcohol injection, so I feel the argument that one is competing with the other is invalid. For example, alcohol injections systems usually are purchased and utilize an alternate fuel source you also purchase to supplement the fuel delivery system for performance enhancements. HHO tends to be comprised of electrolysis systems of many varied designs that are primarily built by the individuals themselves to break hydrogen and oxygen from water to hopefully displace a volume of gasoline to increase mileage. HHO systems tend to operated at moderate throttle under light loads to squeeze out the most from mileage. Most HHO guys are hopeful of being able to improve the designs enough to be able to increase mileage to remarkable levels, or possibly eliminate the need for fossil fuel entirely. Sounds impossible, but that is what most are actually hoping for. When we were building units that were 30-40% efficient it seemed a long shot. Now that we see homemade units hitting the 80% range we are more hopeful. Any unit operating at 100% efficiency or better is at the level that would conceivably no long require any fossil fuel. Personally I've seen homemade HHO units built within 30 miles of my home that include electrodes made from stainless plates, wall switch covers, barbecue tongs, stainless pet feeding bowls, stainless funnels, stainless tubing and stainless large ID pipe.

That being said, there are other considerations such as engine design. As hobbyist we usually do not have available to us the technical information required to run an engine on pure hydrogen gas. Compression ratio, timing curve and spark plug heat range would be all wrong for the conventional engine designed to run on gasoline. At what point do we need to be aware that the hydrogen volumes are excessive for the typical gasoline engine? That remains to be studied

[dvldoc]

Nice dodge on all technical questions ask. Goes to prove a point, when challenged on any real tech questions you guys fold.

You do realize once again methanol can be injected with a progressive controller at any load and will produce more hydrogen then your bubble?

Like I said prove me wrong.

And you manged to post nothing but links all making the same false claims, None of those lame electronics are true tunning devices they simply trick the computer to run the car leaner.

Guess what your causing detonation with these devices and your not injecting anything of significance to make up for the higher combustion chamber temperatures, your not adding any significant octane to fight detonation, especially with less than 2 liter a minute of not even pure hydrogen gas.

When are you going to proved proof HHO works as claimed? Oh I forgot it's already been proven not to work as claimed.

[artnesmith]

A friend of mine drove one of these for about 2 years in Beaumont, Texas. Great little street legal electric car even if an ugly little toad and death trap if you get in an accident. Dr. Spreadbury has one for sale here in East Texas also. They don't go faster than 40 MPH and probably won't go much farther than 40 miles on a charge depending on how many batteries you use. Here's information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicar
I wanted to buy the one from Spreadbury, but my wife said she refuses to be seen in a car this ugly. But it brings up a future HHO project for sure.

If an electric car will run 40 miles on a charge requiring 8-10 12 volt batteries, then how far will a car utilizing a small displacement engine run on those same batteries making HHO? This has many different parameters, but I plan to begin planning to test this theory to see how efficient this can be using stand alone batteries that can be charged at home with less expensive house current. The advantages of using HHO in an internal combustion engine are that if you run out of battery power you can always get home on gasoline. I'll bet this can go farther than the 40 miles an electric vehicle will go on standard batteries. Last month we had a dry cell connected to a fully charged battery for more than 2 hours at 8-9 amps and visually production remained active, volts stayed the same and amps stayed the same or increased just a tad bit. With rows of batteries pulling several cells I believe run times of 4 hours to be easy. At 40 MPH that would net a distance of 160 miles. That would get me around town and then some. I wonder if anyone has investigated this angle before? I've read where some accuse Stan Meyer's HHO dune buggy to be a vehicle of this sort, running at a deficit on electrical consumption.

[dvldoc]

I've read where some accuse Stan Meyer's HHO dune buggy to be a vehicle of this sort, running at a deficit on electrical consumption.

Why do you manage to mention known criminals in your threads, Stan Meyers was convicted and is currently in prison for defrauding investors with his water4gas scam.

Maybe you could actually find a non-criminal scam artist to refer to. Oh yes I forgot there is not one in the HHO community. Because nobody has any real proof there kits work as claimed.

[artnesmith]

Hello all!

I've gotten feedback from my group and this is the latest information and schematic to modify an EFI auto system to run HHO:


A link to more information:
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Proje...2-Extender.htm

Anyone have any first hand information on this? We plan to build this circuit maybe, but seems a permanent fix to a problem that can be corrected by retuning the CPU?

Here's some good information on Stan Meyer, inventor of the Dune Buggy and many other items I can't remember at the moment. Stan died under mysterious circumstances back in 1998 as we all know. More on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer's_water_fuel_cell#Meyer.27s_death

http://keelynet.com/energy/meyerx.htm

Upon his death, many family members came and pulled off parts of the famous dune buggy and to this day no one knows for sure what all systems were integrated on that vehicle. But now that the patent has been released to public information seems it was a good bet that this vehicle ran at a deficit on electricity, much like an electric powered vehicle using charged batteries. I believe Meyer indicated this was only a start, wanting others to carry it further judging by the old TV interviews he did.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHT0hBgVOw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHT0hBgVOw[/ame]

Meyer was an interesting person that registered many patents on devices he had great hopes for, but never achieved any real success. Then other inventions, such as the Dune Buggy that he didn't expect to be very popular, took off and made him a small fortune. Some of his patents include oceanography, medical equipment and systems to validate banking information. Here's more on the man:
http://www.top-alternative-energy-so...ley-meyer.html

I don't have the expertise to duplicate the plasma spark plug system Meyer was using on his dune buggy. But I've seen others using these on one cylinder engines running on water. How far will it go before the battery runs down? Or does it consume so little energy that it's overunity? Meyer's patent on this technology is now public if you can understand it. Maybe someday I might feel up to tackling this sort of thing.

[dvldoc]

Oh my mistake, mixed him up with anouther HHO scam artist, he's dead not in prison. Never the less he was a con man, You really seem kinda silly trying to ignore the old devil but we all know you can't answer any hard questions.

Yeah you posted a device to trick the cars o2 sensor, you can do that with a simple resistor and potientiometer.

Oh and more on your idle Stanley Myeres. He is a crooked as Paul Palstone (GEETS) inventor, also went to prison for Fraud. Why are all these Guys going to jail for fraud if they had a product that worked?? The smart people on this site can see the patern unfortuatly some can't.

Why keep posting pure crap on the site if you cannot provide proof it does anything?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley...ater_fuel_cell

In 1996, inventor Stanley Meyer was sued by two investors to whom he had sold dealerships, offering the right to do business in Water Fuel Cell technology. His car was due to be examined by the expert witness Michael Laughton, Professor of Electrical Engineering at Queen Mary, University of London and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. However, Meyer made what Professor Laughton considered a "lame excuse" on the days of examination and did not allow the test to proceed.[3] According to Meyer the technology was patent pending and under investigation by the patent office, the Department of Energy and the military.[14] His "water fuel cell" was later examined by three witnesses in court who found that there "was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis". The court found Meyer guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" and ordered him to repay the two investors their $25,000.[3]

Meyer demonstrated a dune buggy which he claimed was powered by his water fuel cell. He estimated that only 22 US gallons (83 liters) of water were required to travel from Los Angeles to New York.[8] Furthermore, Meyer claimed to have replaced the spark plugs with "injectors" to spray a fine mist of water into the engine cylinders, which were subjected to an electrical resonance. The water fuel cell would split the water mist into hydrogen and oxygen gas, which would then be combusted back into water vapor in a conventional internal combustion engine to produce net energy.[3] Philip Ball, writing in academic journal Nature, characterized Meyer's claims as pseudoscience, noting that "It's not easy to establish how Meyer's car was meant to work, except that it involved a fuel cell that was able to split water using less energy than was released by recombination of the elements … Crusaders against pseudoscience can rant and rave as much as they like, but in the end they might as well accept that the myth of water as a fuel is never going to go away."[2]
There is no documented proof that the system produces enough hydrogen to run an engine. To date no peer review studies of Meyer's devices have been published in the scientific literature, although his claims have been thoroughly discredited in scientific journals.[2

Good luck with your tinkering because we can read this thread 5 years from now and you will still have nothing to show.

[artnesmith]

Many of you that don't know me, let me give you some HHO history on me. I know I've mentioned getting involved in this because I told a retired Physics Professor that HHO made by electrolysis from water using the 12 volt car electrical system will not improve mileage. He argued that point with me and said that it certainly would improve mileage. I reminded him that the very books he once taught from say it will not work. He said to me, "Like I keep telling everyone, the books are wrong!"

To prove I was right I built a simple HHO generator, one better than the one I saw my Physics Professor friend installing on his car in my opinion, and set out to prove my point. Of course, as poorly constructed and ill conceived as that first HHO generator was, my mileage did go up. Ever since then I've been tinkering with this to understand it better and gone from the first unit that could never have achieved 40% efficiency on its best day to the units I have in my possession now that hit 60% to 78% regularly respectively on 13.5 volts. I have gotten a lot of help from people across the Internet in many different countries. I've even had some guys provide schematics and plans free of charge just to help out. Can't brag enough about my HHO brothers.

Some basic principles of electrolysis:
http://www.gcsescience.com/pt12.htm

In school we plated a nickel with copper from a penny using copper sulfate and a bowl to show how the electrons travel through water and can carry metal from one electrode to another. Of course, the nickel was less attractive to me, but showed how electricity can travel through water. The hydrogen/oxygen released escaped into the air during this and was lost. Here's more:
http://www.juliantrubin.com/fairproj...ctrolysis.html

My dad was a science teacher and brought home a Hofmann Voltameter. This is the apparatus used to break apart the bond between hydrogen and oxygen using electricity and an electrolyte such as salt or copper sulfate. Using the Hofmann Voltameter the hydrogen and oxygen collect in the different tubes, separately, and can be released through valves at the top. Here is more on the Hofmann Voltameter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmann_voltameter

My friends and I got hold of the Hofmann Voltameter unsupervised and began filling latex balloons with hydrogen which floated quite nicely. We used a 20 volt DC transformer from a toy race car set for our electrical supply. More about that later if anyone wants to hear about those antics.

Nikola Tesla was raked over badly by the press during his time and confrontation with Edison over AC current. He was called a scammer and a crook during his life also. He did win the argument proving that AC current was superior to DC in spanning long distances from the generating station as Edison finally yielded to the reality that DC would not work and finally admitted that. Was Tesla really able to grab Alternating Current out of the air as he later implied? No one really knows, but no one was ever able to duplicate his experiments since that time. One thing is for sure, when Thomas Edison told Tesla that he would pay him 50,000 dollars to fix the problems with his generators, Tesla went to work and fixed them as everyone knew Tesla could. Very talented person for sure. But when he asked for his 50,000 dollars Edison said, "Everyone knew I was only joking!" He paid Tesla only 5,000 dollars and Tesla left the employ of Edison complaining that Edison had cheated him.

[A121]

How did you compute for the efficiency?

[artnesmith]

How did you compute for the efficiency?

Refer back to this page for the formula based on Faraday's Law in one of my posts:
http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showt...=52458&page=14

This takes the value in BTUs of the hydrogen in the volume of HHO. Oxygen does not count since it has no value and this is already taken into account here in this formula. Refer to the video for more information on the specifics on this formula and how it is figured:
http://www.youtube.com/user/delvis11#p/u/29/fvfD2Sk86EU

A lot of people post inaccurate or deceptive information on the Internet about their HHO production. The video does help separate fact from fiction and makes it easy to spot someone that may be exaggerating.

[ehnriko]

Thank You for posting this...

Smack is now making Titanium cladded plates... what do you think of the advantage of this design?

[artnesmith]

Thank You for posting this...

Smack is now making Titanium cladded plates... what do you think of the advantage of this design?

I honestly have no idea. I was skeptical about using nickel, but now realize there are better metals. I am busy today, already went out and voted but now have to catch on all the work I am behind on. But I'll go to the HHO Forum and check out what is new there and if anything about this design has been posted. I'll let you know what I find out.

Titanium is rather expensive, but if only plated on, could be valuable to improve efficiency at a low cost. Are the plates flat? Just curious. :grin2:

[artnesmith]

I was reading information at the HHO Forum and there is a current discussion on titanium bonded plates. You have to take a lot of what some people tell you with caution until you get a chance to test it for yourself, but one person posted some good information on how to condition titanium to develop a coating that needs to be baked on, maybe in an oven? The coating is very irregular having so many microscopic crevices that a lot more HHO bubbles can for on the surface. Sounds a lot like what many have said about the conditioning of the tubes to duplicate the Meyers and Lawton cells. The reason the titanium is attached to other metals such as stainless is due to the fact that pure titanium is a poor conductor and tends to corrode faster if you believe what is being posted. But the corrosion problem leads to the surface deposits that most feel are the perfect end result. I'm not sure if I go along with this idea. My friend helping me with my HHO projects has been working to develop the coatings on tube cells for quite some time, still no burst of performance, lots of deposits now coating the tubes. But his tubes are stainless steel.

[artnesmith]

I may have not made this clear, but diesels are not affected by the HHO systems and do not need any sort of modification to the CPU or circuits to retune them to accept HHO. Just FYI

Some interesting huge HHO generators:
Spodie Odie and his V10 cell:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNnYbHjrxHs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNnYbHjrxHs[/ame]

Terrible audio. However, if you go to Zerofossilfuel's website:
http://www.alt-nrg.org/

He answers all e-mails and can clear up some of the lost information. And yes, I noticed Spodie Odie is smoking around that V10 manifold setup. I sure hope he doesn't do that when it's running!

More huge HHO systems:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJBQUM52dhw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJBQUM52dhw[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5Li7DZpGc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5Li7DZpGc&feature=related[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1_Mec8XWQQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1_Mec8XWQQ[/ame]

HHO Torch:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd39Fonf_Gc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd39Fonf_Gc[/ame]

[dvldoc]

Let's understand the logic of HHO guys.

Terrible audio. However, if you go to Zerofossilfuel's website:
http://www.alt-nrg.org/

He answers all e-mails and can clear up some of the lost information. And yes, I noticed Spodie Odie is smoking around that V10 manifold setup. I sure hope he doesn't do that when it's running!

This is a quote directly from the site you posted, So explain why anyone should purchase this stuff?

http://www.alt-nrg.org/legal.html

[SIZE=2]We do not condone anyone making false statements of increases in mpg or reductions in emissions. Our own cells have not been tested to conclusively improve mileage or reduce emissions. Yet.[/SIZE]

Why would anyone spend almost $600 USD on a cell that even the company selling it cannot prove works. Would anyone by any other product on the market like this?

How many years is enough before anyone provides the proof that we keep asking for?

Ever read the warranty on these things.

RETURNS/REFUNDS:
You can return your HHO Generator within 30 days of purchase for a full refund of purchase price* as long as the unit has NOT been installed, filled with electrolyte and/or been turned on and/or used in any manner. Taking apart or disassembling the hho generator or bubbler voids all warranties and refunds. If you have installed the kit in your car, you may NOT return it for any reason EXCEPT warranty repair- no refunds issued after installed in vehicle or used in any manner.
Your 30 day cycle begins when kit is delivered to your door, so make sure you open it immediately and check the packing list for any missing or broken parts and notify us immediately at support*hhokitsdirect.com if you find anything wrong upon opening the package. After 30 days the kit may no longer be returned except for warranty work or replacement only.
The installation kits and extra parts included including relays, switches, etc. are covered by their own mfg. warranties and are new direct to you. If there is a problem with any of these items, contact us immediately for replacement before installation on the vehicle. Once installed, we cannot return it to the mfg. and the item cannot be returned. We offer a 30 day return policy on broken or non functioning items that have been checked prior to installation.
Contact us immediately if you discover a broken item. We recommend doing an inspection upon receiving your kit and check to make sure there are no problems or broken parts.
*Shipping Costs are NOT refundable or reimbursed under any circumstances, unless we make a mistake on your order, (in which case we will be responsible for shipping costs).
REPAIR/REPLACEMENT
After 30 days the kit may no longer be returned except for warranty work or replacement.
Every effort is made to construct quality Hydrogen Generators, Bubblers and other items. The items are checked and tested before being packaged and shipped. We guarantee our hydrogen generators will operate as as efficient hho gas generators and will continue to work well as long as properly installed, maintained and flushed on a regular basis.
If you have installed the kit in your car, you may NOT return it for any reason EXCEPT warranty repair- no refunds issued after installed in vehicle or used in any manner.
If the generator is broken, leaks, or does not produce HHO gas, contact us for a replacement. We will fix or repair it for up to one year after purchase for the cost of shipping only. We do not accept returns based on mileage results because we have no control over the quality of the installation or the type of vehicle it is put into.
Hydrogen Generators must be maintained on a normal basis. If you notice a reduction in performance, this is not a defect or an indication it is broken. It simply indicates it is time to drain the electrolyte, flush it with clean water and refill with fresh distilled water and electrolyte - do NOT send it back until you have performed a maintenance cycle on it. Follow othe rmaintenance recommendations in the instruction manual to keep generator at optimum performance.
WARRANTY:
We offer a limited ONE YEAR WARRANTY on the Hydrogen Generators and Bubblers we make. If the unit does not produce gas, or has a manufacturing defect resulting in leaks or is a non-working unit, we will first attempt to repair it. If the unit cannot be repaired it will be replaced with a comparable new or reconditioned unit, at our discretion for up to one year of purchase.
If the unit has been disassembled, abused, or opened for any reason, this warranty is null and void and the unit will be returned as is. This warranty does not cover auto accidents, theft, vandalism, or any damage as a result of weather or road conditions.
We do NOT warranty the additional parts and accessories we include in our kits- they are covered by their own manufacturers' warranty. If one of the parts is found missing or damaged upon initial inspection of your kit, notify us immediately and we will gladly replace it, however some of the accessories we provide in our kits cannot be returned once installed, therefore we cannot replace or warranty another manufacturers product such as the EFIE, or PWM once they have been used or installed.
If you suspect there is a problem Before installing it- email or call us for a replacement immediately. The part will be inspected and if determined it is a manufacturers defect, we will send it back to our supplier and send you a new one. Any evidence of solder melting or parts burned due to over- current or over- voltage conditions constitutes misuse and will void the manufacturers warranty - we will not be able to send a free replacement.
Because we have no control over the concentration of electrolyte or the amount of current a customer puts into our hydrogen units, nor can we control the quality of the installation, we will not warranty against misuse or abuse including but not limited to; electrolyte strength/dilution, choice of electrolyte, over-current or non-regulated current that results in melting of the plastic caps, gaskets or body, over voltage (more than unit is designed for), customer modifications, and/or using the generator in a way it was not designed to be used. Poor quality or sub-standard installations are not covered in warranty.
We do NOT warranty or reimburse you for any modifications done to your vehicle as a result of the installation of our hydrogen generators, nor do we warrant any damage to your vehicle, engine, person(s), or property as a result of direct or indirect use of our generators whether installed in a vehicle or not. This is a do-it-yourself type product and as such we cannot control nor warranty the cost of installation or additional parts needed to install our units and/or accessories. If you hire a mechanic or friend to help you install it, it is at your own risk and will not be reimbursed by hhokitsdirect.com, hybridwaterpower.com, or our parent company Transitional Technologies, LLC.

When it does not work your just crap out of luck if you have installed the system. Now why is that?

Check out the part about how they talk about installing the product, how do they know if it is sloppy or not. also be sure to check out the last paragraph. Most HHO kit makers have this same warranty.

Why would you buy a product that is designed to keep you from getting a refund the second it is installed. And you have no recourse if it does not work. And we all know already that it does not work.

[artnesmith]

Here's a video for everyone:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w[/ame]

This reminds me of something I did in high school filling balloons with hydrogen. The story I started in a previous post:

Of course, something left unsupervised around teenage boys can be dangerous. I had some friends over one time and we took a 20 volt DC transformer from my Aurora race car set and connected it to the Hofmann Voltameter my dad had brought from school. We noticed the hydrogen collecting, oxygen too on the other side, we decided to get a latex balloon and released the hydrogen into the balloon until if was full. I won't go into the details about the difficulties we encountered doing this, but we prevailed and had a balloon full of hydrogen that weighed about 1/2 what a helium filled balloon would weigh of equal size. Knowing it was flammable we were careful, after all we were indoors. We came up with the brilliant idea of taking a strip of toilet paper and tying it to the balloon. After going outside we took a match and started the bottom of the toilet paper burning and released the balloon. As the balloon floated away the burning toilet paper burned up until the flames reached the balloon itself and set off a huge fireball. Even though the balloon had floated up high in the air to the tree tops, the tremendous heat from the fireball could be felt on our faces. Yes, I'm lucky to be alive doing this sort of thing!

One time at night we were bored and decided to do a hydrogen balloon. In the darkness we went outside and started the toilet paper burning and released the balloon that began to float up and high into the night sky. As we stood there we could see the dim glow of the burning toilet paper in the darkness. But when the flames hit the balloon the fireball was so bright that it turned night into day with a blinding bright flame! This had the effect of causing every home in our neighborhood to empty into the street with all of my neighbors looking up into the now once again dark sky saying, "What the heck was that?" Of course, we were shocked and acted innocent like we had nothing to do with this. My mom saw us acting like the cat that ate the canary and said, "Did you boys have anything to do with this?" We denied it to the last, but I think she suspected we were up to no good. That ended any further night hydrogen balloon launches for sure.

So you can see I do have experience with HHO and electrolysis. I also know the dangers. My dad took the Hofmann Voltameter back to his school so we rigged up a homemade version. Of course, we had a problem with oxygen mixing with our hydrogen in the homemade version we constructed out of glass jars. Yes, I know this was very dangerous. With the Hofmann Voltameter we just let the oxygen go into the air. But our rigged up version had the oxygen mixed with the hydrogen in our balloon. Of course, the balloon did not want to float very well due to the extra weight of the oxygen. So we came up with the brilliant idea of letting some of the gas out of the bottom. Since oxygen is heavier than hydrogen it made sense it would collect at the bottom and be the only gas released when we allowed some to escape from the bottom. After doing this several times and filling the balloon several times we finally had enough to get some floating from the balloon. Since it was daytime, what could go wrong this time? Right? Well, first thing is the balloon did not want to float very well like before. We tore the strip of toilet paper into thin strips to eliminate weight and decided to give it a try. Even with the thin strip of toilet paper, the balloon did not float well at all being carried laterally by the wind until the burning toilet paper began to reduce the weight and the balloon started upward into the middle of a large pecan tree. Of course, the balloon did not burn, but instead exploded with a force that made our ears ring! I remember a squirrel was blown out of the pecan tree and hit the ground along with a shower of pecans followed by a shower of leaves and sticks. We ran away and every house in the neighborhood once again emptied into the streets looking all around wondering what the big explosion had been. This time police cars, fire trucks and an ambulance showed up cruising about. My mom looked at us suspiciously again as we denied culpability. Later once the situation settled down we returned outside and the squirrel was gone, so apparently not injured very badly. We never did this again!

Do I have to tell you how dangerous hydrogen can be with oxygen mixed in? Always use a bubbler and/or flashback preventer.