Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[donbuggy]

excerpts from http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4087

Water: Alternative Fuel for the Future?
Skeptoid #87
February 12, 2008

"Can water really be used as a fuel? Has the solution to all our problems always been right under our very nose? Let me ask a different question: Is the idea that something so obvious could have gone unnoticed for so long absurd enough to warrant a healthy dose of skepticism?

Well, the short answer is yes, they do warrant skepticism; and no, they do not represent any new solution to any problem that nobody's ever thought of before. All of these miracle systems consume more energy than they create, and are reported by the television networks with no critical analysis of the bogus claims being made."


"So how about the car engine thing? Use power from the battery — which is constantly being recharged by the engine — to electrolyze water, thus producing a volatile gas that can be added to the fuel mixture to substantially boost performance. The water tank needs to be refilled just like the gas tank does, and so in this case, the water is actually being used as fuel. Right? Not right. Welders who have heard about these devices generally fall onto the ground laughing when they hear it. These claims state that the water is converted into oxyhydrogen, the same gas used in water torches, and also known as Brown's gas. A water torch is a type of welding flame that uses oxyhydrogen as fuel. Oxyhydrogen is a gas that consists of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas in a 2:1 ratio, the same as water, but chemically separate from one another. Think of the space shuttle's main engines, which also use hydrogen mixed with an oxidizing agent. Recall the size of the explosion when the Challenger's main tank blew. Oxyhydrogen does have huge explosive potential, which is why it's such a great fuel for water torches. Water torches have been around for a long time, so there is nothing remotely new or inventive about this concept. It has never been of interest to automotive engineers because making the oxyhydrogen fuel consumes more energy than can be produced by burning it. Welding is not the art of energy efficiency, so this is not a problem for the welding industry. It would be a huge problem for the automotive industry, which cannot afford to spend more energy creating oxyhydrogen than could be produced burning it. The same goes for your car's engine. If your battery starts with a full charge, your car may indeed run more efficiently with one of these devices for a short time, until the battery is drained enough that the engine must take on the additional load of recharging it. And then there's that pesky law of thermodynamics again. It will never be possible to gain more energy burning the oxyhydrogen than it takes to create the oxyhydrogen. You can borrow energy from the burning gasoline to keep the reaction going, but now you are running less efficiently than you could under gasoline alone."

Brian Dunning

[j2l]

Unfortunately, I don't think Dingle can take you up on that. He passed away some time ago.

One tsikoteer here before was present at one of Dingle's demonstrations, and his conclusion was that it was a lot of "hocus-pocus". Dingle would claim "security reasons" and not wanting "foreigners to steal his ideas" as reasons for not allowing closer scrutiny or distance demonstrations.

Which is complete bull. My cousin's house all through the 90's was one block away from Dingle's house. And his "demonstration" Corolla, with its water stickers on, was parked on the street where any enterprising soul who wanted to "steal" his ideas could car-jack it.

That, in the five or six years we saw that car parked outside, even at night, nobody even bothered, tells you how much those make-believe industrial spies actually thought about Dingle's car.

Hi. just fyi, julius babao interviewed dingle a day or two ago. he hasn't passed away yet. also, as an aside, has anyone on tsikot heard of hydromaxxx? is this the same thing as what you have all been talking about in this thread? has hydromaxxx been discussed elsewhere on other forums? just curious. thank you

[j2l]

Unfortunately, I don't think Dingle can take you up on that. He passed away some time ago.

One tsikoteer here before was present at one of Dingle's demonstrations, and his conclusion was that it was a lot of "hocus-pocus". Dingle would claim "security reasons" and not wanting "foreigners to steal his ideas" as reasons for not allowing closer scrutiny or distance demonstrations.

Which is complete bull. My cousin's house all through the 90's was one block away from Dingle's house. And his "demonstration" Corolla, with its water stickers on, was parked on the street where any enterprising soul who wanted to "steal" his ideas could car-jack it.

That, in the five or six years we saw that car parked outside, even at night, nobody even bothered, tells you how much those make-believe industrial spies actually thought about Dingle's car.

Hi. just fyi, julius babao interviewed dingle a day or two ago. he hasn't passed away yet. also, as an aside, has anyone on tsikot heard of hydromaxxx? is this the same thing as what you have all been talking about in this thread? has hydromaxxx been discussed elsewhere on other forums? just curious. thank you

[dvldoc]

Same scam different name, I don't know how many facts need to be posted to convince people your not going to run your car on a HHO generator powered by your cars 12v battery.

If you want to find out buy a kit and report back your results, I'm sure you will be highly disappointed.

I just had a guy here in Guam I ran into when I was talking about water injection show me the kit he got off of Ebay, cost 2 times more than a alcohol injection kit for 50USD in cheap hardware store parts.

Guess what, No fuel savings at all, no increase in HP, no reduction intake temps, Zero benefit. Then I took him for a ride in my Explore with a water injection kit on it, And showed him the difference between the kit off and on.

He's a little bit ticked off on his 400USD investment that does nothing.

I swear if I see anouther Youtube video I'm going to scream,

[SIZE=7]IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD![/SIZE]

[morrissey_05]

http://juliusbabao.multiply.com/jour...D_CAR_INVENTOR

oh brother.

[morrissey_05]

nabuhay na naman mga storyang ganito. sa TV patrol kanina meron.

[Mile2]

Ilang dekada na ang lumipas puro claim pa rin at pananakot si Mr. Dingel na ibebenta na lang nya sa foriegner. Nagsalita na ang DOST na ipakita lang ni Mri. Dingel ang proof at ipasuri ang kotse nya at tutulungan siya ng gobyerno.

Ilang dekada na, ni isang private car user di man lang nakabitan ng sinasabing water powered car

30+ years ago bata pa ako, yung mga jeepney namin ang mga naunang binigyan ni Mr. Planas ng KHAOS sa San Juan, but after few months pinagtatanggal na ni erpat wala naman daw fuel savings at mahirap pang itono ang makina.

[etneroll]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding this topic before and many of us have frown on this...this time it's worth looking into...take a look...

http://www.gas-water-car.com/

[redorange]

It's the same thing as discussed before just with a different name and marketing. If it was a legitimate thing they wouldn't have to go to the internet to sell it, every carmaker would be offering everything to get the rights to it with the price of gas approaching $5 in the US.

Edit: Why a 56 day guarantee as opposed to a 60day? Gotta love the blond who supposedly saved money on the ad. I bet she paid for blinker fluid when her mechanic said it needs to be replaced.

[almost24hrs]

di pa halos pareho to sa invention ni dengel? ako naniniwala talaga ako dun sa invention nung kababayan natin..sayang sana napakinabangan natin dito sa pinas..mukang nakuha na ng ibang bansa ang technoloy..

[redorange]

di pa halos pareho to sa invention ni dengel? ako naniniwala talaga ako dun sa invention nung kababayan natin..sayang sana napakinabangan natin dito sa pinas..mukang nakuha na ng ibang bansa ang technoloy..

You mean the same guy who refuses to have his invention tested by other scientist? That's a scam too, only difference is he is Pinoy. Nobody stole his technology since it's a scam and the car doesn't really run on water. Do a search in this forum alone and you'll know why it's scam.

[shadow]

di pa halos pareho to sa invention ni dengel? ako naniniwala talaga ako dun sa invention nung kababayan natin..sayang sana napakinabangan natin dito sa pinas..mukang nakuha na ng ibang bansa ang technoloy..

here we go again, with dingle's "invention"....stop saying that he's a Filipino kaya dapat suportahan tapos yun mga hinde naniniwala eh "crab mentality", kahit pinoy pa siya kung manloloko naman hinde namin suusportanhan...

and unahan na rin kita about conspiracy theory niya na kaya ayaw siyans suportanahan ng Gov't natin is malaki binibigay na bayad ng mga oil companies...sira-ulo lang naniniwala sa kanya!

[Hanren]

[SIZE=3]Very promising but I wonder why there is no standards-governing body which has accredited this one? I’m also surprised at the simplicity(?) of the setup and the price (vis-à-vis LPG conversions)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

[ghosthunter]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding this topic before and many of us have frown on this...this time it's worth looking into...take a look...

http://www.gas-water-car.com/

If it doesn't work before, what is the difference with this now?

Maybe you the guys who support this do a car as their show off as a sample.

[donbuggy]

http://reviews.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Gen...00000005261775

I have been researching the Economy and Hydrogen world for sometime now. Being a auto mechanic and being not only booksmart but streetsmart, I have decided to try to evade people from throwing away their hard earned cash.

First the Hydrogen deal:

Lets get the facts straight. Water is H2O aka- 2parts Hydrogen, 1part Oxygen combined together. When put under electrolysis or electrosis these molecules split forming a gas known as HHO which is a very explosive and powerful gas. The smallest of sparks can ignite the gas and if stored into container which for some reason caught fire the result could be fatal. No need to get scared though, if the proper precautions are made, no danger is to be seen.

HHO is about 3 times more powerful than gasoline vapor. Meaning 1L of HHO would give your vehicle 300% more power than 1L of gasoline vapor. But feeding an engine pure hho would destroy it due to the fact timing is advanced(spark before TDC) on most vehicles but needs to be retarded(spark past TDC). Also the temperature at which HHO Burns is melting point of the metal it touches. SO...your valves and head would burn through in a matter of weeks. Also when you completely remove gasoline or diesel from an engine the upper cylinder gets no lubrication and will wear out your piston rings FAST.

Getting enough HHO to power a car is pretty hard if not impossible. Explanation: a 2 cylinder 1L engine uses 1L of air per 4 revolutions (rpm). Gasoline is injected as a mist which turns into a vapor instantly at a ratio of 15 parts air to one part vapor. Which is .07 L. At 2000 RMP the engine uses 1/2L of vapor per SECOND. HHO is already one part oxygen to two parts hydrogen so too much air would thin it out too much and give no explosion. SO, even at a ratio of 10:1 that would require .85 L per second of HHO to power that same engine at 2000RPM. Kinda alot. NO generator I have seen or made can come close to the requirements.

So we use HHO to Boost the efficeincy of our gasoline engine, giving it pure hydrogen and oxygen to let the fuel burn better. This is where the good part starts.

Most sellers are selling systems that give less than 1/2 LPM of HHO. When mixed with the air going to the engine that makes NOTHING. 1/10-1/2 LPM of HHO will do some good for a small engine like 50CC-2.0L again more HHO to the bigger engine. Any engine over this size needs 1+ LPM. Alot of the sellers dont even know how much their system makes! They say "ALOT" but in reality all the cells I have tested that seemed to make alot, made 1/4-3/4 LPM. If the kit supplies gas via an aquarium air line, the system makes nothing, trust me. LOOK OUT FOR THE GAS OUTPUT.

Second, if a system uses alot of AMPS, it will fry your alternator and battery in no time which no one will tell you though. Look out for systems that draw over 15AMPs but put out less than 1LPM. This is not a wise investment. A full size truck can handle 25 AMPS but I dont recommend going over 20.

MORE EXPENSIVE DOESNT MEAN GOOD!

Upon testing, I find that without proper circulation of air around a unit (which is impossible under the hood of the car where it is already HOT) the unit boils over in a matter of minutes. So it starts drawing more amps, if you start at 10 you will get above 20 at boil. NOT GOOD.

Any system made out of PVC(white) or ABS(black) Plumbing pipe that draws over 15 amps is likely to boil. That pipe is not made to withstand that kind of temperature. It turns soft and flexible at that temp. It will warp, deform and likely leak in short time if there is any connections below the water line. Watch out for these types of systems.

The biggest concern is that most none of the sellers tell anyone that if you own a EFI (fuel injected) car which most people do, that you will need either and EFIE on your Oxygen sensor, or a resistor on your MAP or MAF sensor. These are fairly easy to build and install but it is a MUST and you will not see much difference in fuel savings without one, you even might see a loss of economy. It is used to trick the computer into thinking that the fuel mix is richer than it is. You want LEAN mix if you are running HHO boost. But too much oxygen in the exhaust will tell the computer to add more fuel which would cancel any HHO boost. Moving the Oxygen sensor out of the pipe but still mounted on the pipe will work on some vehicles (1996o or older). BE WARNED: too lean of a fuel mix WILL burn your valve seats and valve heads! Diesel cars do not suffer from this.

CONCLUSION!

I have tested many systems and put over $5000 into it all, I have built many different cells and tried many electronics. I have come to a conclusion that as of yet, there is no system out there worth "investing" into just yet. The reason for this is that the energy your car has to spend turning an alternator at full load is equal to running your a/c compressor full time and the fact that your battery suffers from this is even more costly. Add it all up and this "investment" isnt quite that. The cleaning of the cell and the measuring of electrolyte is also time consuming.

[deore]

Nakakatawa nga eh,, pero may tanong ako,, bakit ang KHAOS ay pinayagan ng Gobyerno na mapa market gayong wala naman palang fuel savings,, and puro claim lang din yun at puro testimonya lang...

Ano ba talaga ang problema, napakalaking tax ang nakukuha ng gobyerno sa langis...

Kung hindi ako nagkakamali ay naipakilala na sa Pilipinas ang kotseng Toyota Prius? Gas/Electric powered, ano nangyari??? Bakit hindi napalabas ng ayos dito sa Pilipinas???

Ano na mangyayari sa industriya ng langis kung mapapalabas ang ganitong mga uri ng sasakyan???

Higit pa, kung totoo man ang inbensiyon ni Mr.Dingle...

Isa pang tanong,, Paano naman ang claim ng Honda??? Hindi ba rin totoo yun? gayong naipakilala na sa madla ang water powered automobile nila???

[forcemajeure]

ang problema kasi maraming company sinabayan nila ng scam kya may mga naloloko

sa ngayon naniniwala ako na in the near future kaya yan at pwede... dati sira ulo daw ang mga nangangarap na makakapunta ang tao sa buwan...

at makaka imbento ng eroplano...at anu pa..? ang payo ko lang mas mabuting mag antay kesa bumili ng kung anuanu pra makatipid...

pag ok at gumagana na yan...makikita mo nalang agad yan dadaan sa harap mo wag tyo paloloko sa mga kung anu anu...

[CoDer]

Guys why don't you read Iceland Hydrogen fuel initiative. Raw material is water and the fueling station is run by SHELL.

I have been scouring the internet for materials stating that it was a failure but haven't found any.

[ghosthunter]

Guys why don't you read Iceland Hydrogen fuel initiative. Raw material is water and the fueling station is run by SHELL.

I have been scouring the internet for materials stating that it was a failure but haven't found any.

Just stating the obvious difference between water4gas vs hydrogen...

water4gas and similar claims you can generate all the hydrogen you need to fuel a car with an onboard system.

Typical hydrogen fuel systems have a hydrogen generator located off the vehicle and the vehicle only uses hydrogen stored in a tank on the car. No hydrogen is generated on the vehicle itself.

[CoDer]

Just stating the obvious difference between water4gas vs hydrogen...

water4gas and similar claims you can generate all the hydrogen you need to fuel a car with an onboard system.

Typical hydrogen fuel systems have a hydrogen generator located off the vehicle and the vehicle only uses hydrogen stored in a tank on the car. No hydrogen is generated on the vehicle itself.

Noted paps.