Things you need to know before idolizing marcos

[jhnkvn]

Compare that during martial law days.

We never became china during the much like communist red party days and will never will. Look at the facts and quit the "if" scenario, that's nothing but bs.

Contrary to what you say, we were very much like the Communist Red Party during our martial law days. Do you think China's success was merely a fluke? Try talking to some old Chinese people then like those who migrated. They migrated because China wasn't even considered "well-developed" by then and we were the industrialized country in Asia. But ask them and you'll always elicit response that they never doubted China's rise as a global superpower. Vision is what fueled China's rise and vision doesn't come cheaply.

I did look at the facts. Is China not a debt-driven economy when it entered an expansionary monetary policy in 2010? Did state banks not overspend when Beijing tells them "lend."? Do you think China is not crony-capitalism given the Communist Party's grasp on business and politics?

Have you been to China? Have you done actual business in China? Or do you simply defend your Philippine views because you believe it's just the truth and only the truth in your eyes? Now who's not looking at the facts?

[ClaNker]

Contrary to what you say, we were very much like the Communist Red Party during our martial law days. Do you think China's success was merely a fluke? Try talking to some old Chinese people then like those who migrated. They migrated because China wasn't even considered "well-developed" by then and we were the industrialized country in Asia. But ask them and you'll always elicit response that they never doubted China's rise as a global superpower. Vision is what fueled China's rise and vision doesn't come cheaply.

I did look at the facts. Is China not a debt-driven economy when it entered an expansionary monetary policy in 2010? Did state banks not overspend when Beijing tells them "lend."? Do you think China is not crony-capitalism given the Communist Party's grasp on business and politics?

Have you been to China? Have you done actual business in China? Or do you simply defend your Philippine views because you believe it's just the truth and only the truth in your eyes? Now who's not looking at the facts?

Ano ba ang pakialam ko sa China.

We are talking about Marcos regime here. Check your damn facts will ya.

[jhnkvn]

It's best he first read history before posting loooong bs.

Human rights violation? Yeah it still the same duing Martial Law days.

I'd like to have what jhnkvn is smoking. Sing unlad na sana tayo ng China! :beam:

I prefer not to have below the belt discussions or accusing me of smoking pot. I typed my points with facts and I question what is taught as the norm. Truthfully, I am an elitist. Now before people start bashing the elite mentality.. I'd rather be on this side of the green rather than on the massa side that breeds ignorance.

As much as sarcasm is great for humoring up a discussion, the use of it as a direct means to answer won't give you high merits in a non-biased debate does it?

The fundamental essence of human rights violation is that life is taken away with impunity. Now.. isn't that what is done today? Why do I have one less friend with the death of Enzo Pastor? What about the journalists slain because of political expose?

We have different viewpoints but my viewpoint is elitist because I've been there. I have seen corruption with my own two hands, have seen how politicians meekly ask for "contributions" during dinner tables, and I've seen crime. Crime that goes unreported because powerful entities are behind them and it won't even land you a section in a daily circulation newspaper. So where were you that you speak of bullshit?

Vladimir Putin is your quinessential strongman. Somebody who ran his country for decades and lasting power with political and economic consolidation under him. Who turned his country's resources into his own via crony capitalism from state-owned firms like Gazprom. But Russia's strong.. strong enough that the European Union can't impose strict sanctions on fear of a natural gas crisis if Russia gets mad. Yes, a lot of people are dying in the winter.. poverty, underemployment, etc. but Russia.. is strong. But what about the Philippines? Not only do we have poverty hell.. we don't even have a means to defend ourselves.

You talk about human rights and yet shun away the realization on the opportunity toll of those who died due to poverty. I don't mind state-owned firms. I don't mind corruption. As long as it gets the damn job done. Bill Gates has once said focusing on energy is the best way on how to eradicate poverty. From an uninformed view, he's simply an elitist -- somebody who has $50b net worth but there's wisdom in what he says. Governal red-tape, high power costs, poor tax and customs implementation, hefty business procedures.. tingin mo wala din ito consequences when it comes to human lives at a micro-level?

[[archie]]

Of course that I do not know. How would he have done it? Who knows.

Do a partial sovereign default maybe? It had been on the table for years after Marcos-era and yet there wasn't any real progress to it has there?

Why do people view GDP to debt as inherently bad? Australia has a 95% external GDP to debt ratio. Japan is a classic case of over 100% GDP to debt ratio and yet.. we purchase a Camry, play with a PS4, drop-by 7-11 after office hours and wear Uniqlo shirts.

What matters is government efficiency and growth. If your economy grows more than your debt, not only does your GDP to debt fall but it also lowers borrowing and repayment costs.

I'll give you an idea but it's only being done gradually. Why doesn't the government pay off the entire IOU by restructuring the debt now that a 2013' 1-year T-bill is less than 1%? Think about that? Just paying peanuts for debt servicing. In the corporate world, IBM threw out bonds.. IOUs essentially just to further increase its share repurchase program to increase shareholder value by leveraging the favorable macro-environment. Why can't the PH gov't do the same even on a slightly higher interest rate? Because you'll need to pass bills nanaman sa Congress, have them bicker, revise it and pass the second, third,... tenth amendment..

We could say his crony-ism led to his downfall. It dented government efficiency and growth. But at the very least from somebody wielding "power", removal of cronies aren't hard. Poof and they're gone. What about now? Our legislators still clinging along their seats in our Congress and Senate.

No matter which President sat in the early 1980s, the oil crisis cannot be avoided given our huge dependence on oil - a resource we unfortunately don't have aplenty. You could daresay loans from the IMF to increase import oil credit to prevent a national economic halt was downright inevitable.

Throw in ridiculous amount of political instability just before People Power and you aren't painting a rosy picture at all. Double -7% from 84 to 85? Of course it'll affect the bottom line in an absurd way.. just look at Thailand right now. They're so desperate in drumming up support that they're having women in skimpy fatigue outfits posing next to tanks (me likey! kidding.. a bit)

But let's say we take the average GDP growth from 1970 to 1983. Let's trade-off the removal of that absurd negative figures brought about by political uncertainty transition with Marcos' first term as President where he.. according to textbooks.. performed well. We'll start with his second-term in office which signaled his supposed downfall. My data shows that given GDP growth constant of 1985 prices, 1970 to 1983 was an average of 5.2% growth. If we were to take Arroyo's term, although plagued by corruption.. but was fiscally correct, you would have arrived at 4.4% annually from 2001 to 2009 and that includes the US subprime mortgage crisis. Cory's administration paid off $4b of the loans to attract foreign investors but at the end her administration borrowed $9b leaving a $5b net deficit.

Subsequent trade balances were mostly deficits as the country went from rice exporter to the top rice importer over time. What local industry? The fiscal policies destroyed it entirely. The entire textile industry alone was dead by 1980 onwards due to that absurd overhead cost.



If corruption really deters growth. Why has Indonesia outpaced the Philippines? Given that their own dictator Suharto took the top spot in 2004's Global Transparency Report while Marcos was second? Taking $35b over three decades versus our own $10b over two decades?



The end conclusion is that.. although Marcos was horrible.. his successors were worse in my opinion. And given the constant bickering we see with our legislation and the amount of idiocy democracy has sprouted like.. seriously, a front-page Vhong Navarro issue? *facepalm* I probably won't mind giving some freedom in exchange for discipline and order.

Trust me. China is corrupt as hell. Municipal officials can simply grab your land without just compensation because the state owns the land. Some of them grab entire businesses either and you can say the country is governed too by crony-ism. But when the Red Party's ass is on the line.. crony or not, you'll just magically disappear. Dictatoral powers.

As long as things get done, hell.. I'm happy. Sadly, that isn't happening in the Philippines -- can somebody please just raise those damned LRT prices. Hindi afford yun additional transportation costs? BS. How much San Migs do you think these people even consume on paydays but can't afford to pay additional "fare" costs.

O god... Kaya Ayaw ko ng hypotheticals eh.

Sabi ko nga, Wala ako pakialam sa corruption for this topic.

Eto na lang eh... Give factual numbers that the Philippines were in a better economic standing. Baka Sabihin mo na ang tanungan is "are we better off". Simple lang yan, compare his regime and after.

Dun na lang tayo sa factual, masyado lumalala imagination mo. Comparing first world countries gdp to ours? Haha come on.

[[archie]]

I prefer not to have below the belt discussions or accusing me of smoking pot. I typed my points with facts and I question what is taught as the norm. Truthfully, I am an elitist. Now before people start bashing the elite mentality.. I'd rather be on this side of the green rather than on the massa side that breeds ignorance.

As much as sarcasm is great for humoring up a discussion, the use of it as a direct means to answer won't give you high merits in a non-biased debate does it?

The fundamental essence of human rights violation is that life is taken away with impunity. Now.. isn't that what is done today? Why do I have one less friend with the death of Enzo Pastor? What about the journalists slain because of political expose?

We have different viewpoints but my viewpoint is elitist because I've been there. I have seen corruption with my own two hands, have seen how politicians meekly ask for "contributions" during dinner tables, and I've seen crime. Crime that goes unreported because powerful entities are behind them and it won't even land you a section in a daily circulation newspaper. So where were you that you speak of bullshit?

Vladimir Putin is your quinessential strongman. Somebody who ran his country for decades and lasting power with political and economic consolidation under him. Who turned his country's resources into his own via crony capitalism from state-owned firms like Gazprom. But Russia's strong.. strong enough that the European Union can't impose strict sanctions on fear of a natural gas crisis if Russia gets mad. Yes, a lot of people are dying in the winter.. poverty, underemployment, etc. but Russia.. is strong. But what about the Philippines? Not only do we have poverty hell.. we don't even have a means to defend ourselves.

You talk about human rights and yet shun away the realization on the opportunity toll of those who died due to poverty. I don't mind state-owned firms. I don't mind corruption. As long as it gets the damn job done. Bill Gates has once said focusing on energy is the best way on how to eradicate poverty. From an uninformed view, he's simply an elitist -- somebody who has $50b net worth but there's wisdom in what he says. Governal red-tape, high power costs, poor tax and customs implementation, hefty business procedures.. tingin mo wala din ito consequences when it comes to human lives at a micro-level?

I just can't believe you can compare killings during Marcos era and now.

One less friend for you??? That's what your going with??!

Paano yung mga dinampot ng mga pulis at hindi na umuwi, never heard of again? They families can't even mourn the loss because they have no idea kung buhay o patay.

You compare to a loss of a friend... O god.

[jhnkvn]

Ano ba ang pakialam ko sa China.

We are talking about Marcos regime here. Check your damn facts will ya.

I was drawing direct comparisons with socialist and strong-man regimes and how they fared in the world decades after their implementation. "It won't work?" "Iba ang Filipinos?" But I will appreciate progress to say the least. Let's see you try starting up a business without even lifting a finger.

This is something I don't like much about Tsikoteers is how they gang up on people when their viewpoints run contrary. I take it with minor offense and sometimes with a dash of fun. Much like how Tsikoteers poked fun at the person who wanted to buy an armored car.

Madaming tao nakikisakay on this "fun" much like it was a bandwagon. But when it actually comes to pulling out the punches, they come short and try to discredit the other without adding much to the intellectual discussion behind it.

Now a heavyweight has sided with the opposition, how does the ruling party decide to handle it? Will you confront me with a point to point debate or simply shrug it off as "wala ka naman alam"? I don't just look at the country itself because that itself is close-minded. So you look at comparisons at what might have been the opportunity cost do you not?

Sadly, opportunity cost isn't a fixed number. Nobody even knows how big it is unless you're there. What's the opportunity cost if Ayala did not have a vision and did not develop Ayala Avenue? Bonifacio Global City? Nobody knows. This is why we do competitive analysis not just on Ayala but its peers and the real estate development industry in the nation -- and outside the nation.

[ClaNker]

I prefer not to have below the belt discussions or accusing me of smoking pot. I typed my points with facts and I question what is taught as the norm. Truthfully, I am an elitist. Now before people start bashing the elite mentality.. I'd rather be on this side of the green rather than on the massa side that breeds ignorance.

Well massa are indeed ignorant, can't blame them if they pick makoy.

What about you? A well educated person that can't even stick to the Marcos regime timeline historical facts.

[ClaNker]

I was drawing direct comparisons with socialist and strong-man regimes and how they fared in the world decades after their implementation. "It won't work?" "Iba ang Filipinos?" But I will appreciate progress to say the least. Let's see you try starting up a business without even lifting a finger.

This is something I don't like much about Tsikoteers is how they gang up on people when their viewpoints run contrary. I take it with minor offense and sometimes with a dash of fun. Much like how Tsikoteers poked fun at the person who wanted to buy an armored car.

Madaming tao nakikisakay on this "fun" much like it was a bandwagon. But when it actually comes to pulling out the punches, they come short and try to discredit the other without adding much to the intellectual discussion behind it.

Now a heavyweight has sided with the opposition, how does the ruling party decide to handle it? Will you confront me with a point to point debate or simply shrug it off as "wala ka naman alam"? I don't just look at the country itself because that itself is close-minded. So you look at comparisons at what might have been the opportunity cost do you not?

Sadly, opportunity cost isn't a fixed number. Nobody even knows how big it is unless you're there. What's the opportunity cost if Ayala did not have a vision and did not develop Ayala Avenue? Bonifacio Global City? Nobody knows. This is why we do competitive analysis not just on Ayala but its peers and the real estate development industry in the nation -- and outside the nation.

Now I'm really confused.

Let's stick to the topic please.

[e2romo]

Pwet yata ni Makoy sinisinghot ng pamilya nila kaya lahat ng ginawa ni Marcos mabango.

We lived through the Marcos era at naramdaman namin kung paano naging pahirap ng pahirap ang buhay. Yung kinakain ng ordinaryong tao ngayon hindi makakain ng panahon ni Marcos. Dumating kami sa paggamit ng extenders, yung pamalit sa mga meat, dahil di maafford na ang mga karne. Bago na overthrow siya panay advertise ng gobyerno na kumain na lang ng gulay.

Apples, grapes, oranges, imported chocolates were luxury items back then, kung may 1 basket mayaman ka. We can only afford 4 apples and our parents buy it during new year dahil luxury item siya back then. Ngayon neglected na yung benefit na you can afford these items.

Ang mga nakaranas ng buhay sa panahon ni Marcos ang makakapagsabi kung alin ang mas mainam, definitely mas gumanda buhay namin noong nawala siya.

Sent from the Twilight Zone...

[jhnkvn]

And were first-worlds always been first-world? Or did they enforce good governance and fiscal policies to get them where they are?

You're comparing it by the numbers. I'm comparing it by the essence on why human right violations happens in the first place. May pinagbago ba? Think a politician can't simply make his rival "disappear". Why do you think politics is often viewed as "dirty"? I believe I need not link out the number of politically-viewed killings here in Tsikot because we're exposed to it and yet has justice been done? Sure, we know of it.. but do the cases close or do they languish in court? Do people actually care if it doesn't concern them in reality?