Gas saving device

[niky]

Originally posted by raijuta
Hi everyone...what I did was really wrong and I apologize for this....Sir moderator sorry for doing this...

Well we are really just testing the device...and dont want to prove anything...if you want it..get it..it doesnt work for you...return..it...again..I apologize for the trouble this may have caused..

O continue na discussion......natin tungkol dito...sayang naman maganda ang topic...as blue gsr said..meron ba tayong pwedeng makapagtestingan ng A/F mixture...actually 2mm of HG ang minemaintain na pressure nung device...medyo mababa nga kng compared dun sa regular pressure ng engine..

The problem with this discussion is it's still the talking heads argument, and sir, your action was immature and childish and not exaclty conducive to a valid discussion of the technical nature and claims attached to this device.

Whether or not your reporting may be accurate at this point, it is the sincerity and motivations in presenting these testing claims that we must now question.

Please understand, no matter how stubborn or mule-headed we appear in arguing against this product, we are merely trying to ferret the truth about these products. It's very hard to accept any claims made by such products when half of their claims appear to be baseless and inflated.

I may take the comments of zero as factual, because they reflect EXACTLY how the device in question should behave... but any claims of great savings (made from the very first teaspoonful of gas used in testing!), followed by an attempt at shaming me into accepting this device via a fake log-in, is only certain to rouse my (and many other's) ire.

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by blugsr98
for this statement:

"A vacuum meter is used to monitor the amount of negative pressure (suction) in the intake manifold. A vacuum meter reading is used to diagnose a variety of engine problems, from a blown head gasket to worn valve guides. It also can be used to monitor fuel economy, with high vacuum readings indicating good fuel economy and low vacuum readings indicating poor fuel economy."

now im quite confused, how come both of us (raijuta and myself) are getting good result in terms of fuel economy with the low vaccum reading as compared to high vaccum reading before installationor khaos? any idea?

...so you still did not answer my question, how did your "dealer" measure your pressure? From which point in the engine did he get the data? Vacuum pressure changes as you rev up (or down) your engine. Could it be the dealer was just "pulling your leg" when he showed you the meter readings since you said its a steady 2inHg in whatever RPM your engine is in? He (installer/dealer) always could have crimped close the vacuum tube to make the meter give false readings.

I would rather have you take a picture of your engine bay with the details of the installed device in focus and post it here so we can all see. Other than that, I will just deem it as more "dealer talk".

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by blugsr98

with the concern on the possible emmission of NOx, i guess the test results from Ford and DOE would be enough to say that this complies with Safety Measures.

so what did Ford and DOE use to measure NOx emissions? A smoke color chart?

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by raijuta
Mas maganda nga na matest na to...tama rin kc yung point nila na nakakasave nga tayo pero..baka may sinisira naman sa engine...

At least you are getting some of my points. Save on gas now.. pay more later when you have to do major repairs on the engine because of the damage the device has done.

well, ang iniisip ko na lang is nakapasa sya sa testing ng DOE and Ford Philippines. kaso di mo pa din masabi..corrupt government ng philippines eh

I doubt if the testing done was anywhere as comprehesive than it should have been. My guess, they just installed the device and drove around for a while and later measured the vehicle's milage.

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by blugsr98
actually i already raised this concern on the low vacuum reading from the distributor/dealer. they said that tey are confident enough to say that we are not running lean with the reading. they are open for test on the A/F ratio if you want. appreciate if you could suggest a shop that offers this testing. thanks!

A steady 2inHg intake vacuum pressure claim during all engine rpm levels is suspiciously wrong.

Here's a simple test.

1. Remove your car's air filter element temporarily.
2. Place your hand to partially cover the intake hole leading to the air sensor while the car is idle.
3. Feel the air flow by your hand.
4. Rev up the engine to a higher RPM
5. Feel the air flow again.

The first "feel" is the air suction at engine idle speed. The second "feel" is the air suction at a higher RPM. Doesn't the 2nd "feel" feel much much stronger than the first? Yes? So how did the "dealer" get 2inHg during all engine RPMs if your 2nd "feel" is stronger? Remember, the vacuum guage is supposed to be measuring the exact same suction as your hand. (Of course your hand is not as accurate but change of pressure can be felt.)

[OTEP]

Ang sakit sa kamay niyan nung ginawa ko sa Ford V8 recently. hehehe. Para kong mahihiwa.

[mbt]

Originally posted by the_wildthing
It's time for Tsikot.com Partylist ... heralding the cause of motorists all over the Philippines.

bwahahaha... tutol yung CBCP kay ungas e :bwahaha:

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by OTEP
Ang sakit sa kamay niyan nung ginawa ko sa Ford V8 recently. hehehe. Para kong mahihiwa.

well, I could always say "partially cover" and not FULLY cover the intake.

[mazdamazda]

btw, here's general diagram of all pre-combustion "fuel-saving" devices:



notice how it the said "original invention" is similar to dozens of devices already out there in the market.

[mazdamazda]

and here's the basis of our argument over air-bleed "fuel-saving" devices.

there are basically two reasons.

1. the device is doing no good since additional fuel is being injected to compensate for the addt'l air

2. the device is saving some fuel and reduces HC & CO levels - but dramatically increases the output of NOx.

it doesn't take an engineer to absord all this stuff.

[quote]

The ratio of air to fuel is a critical factor in petrol combustion. The theoretically ideal mixture is around 14.5 parts of air to 1 of fuel. This is known as the stoichiometric ratio. Variations from this are characterised by the term lambda, where lambda less than 1 means a rich micture (excess fuel), and lambda greater than 1 means a lean mixture (excess air).
The first reason is the presence of the lambda sensor in the exhaust system. For good operation of the catalyst (see below), the engine is set to run at lambda 1 at all times other than cold start and full load (in other words, for 99% of the engine's operation). Since the tolerance on injectors and air meter might be as much as 5%, a lambda sensor is fitted in the exhaust to monitor the mixture. This sensor gives a very precise measure of lambda; the engine management system adds or removes a small amount of fuel to keep the engine at exactly lambda 1. So the air bleed through the "fuel saving device" results in a lean mixture, but the lambda sensor will "see" this and the EMS will put extra fuel in to compensate. Hence the mixture stays at lambda 1 - the "fuel saving device" has no effect at all

The second reason is the operation of the catalytic converter. This miraculous device is largely responsible for the significant improvements in urban air quality seen in recent years, by converting around 95% of toxic pollutants to relatively harmless substances.
The three "regulated pollutants" are unburnt hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx). All three are serious human health hazards. NOx is nitrogen with added oxygen; HC and CO represent incomplete combustion. What the catalyst does is to remove the oxygen from the NOx and give it to the HC and CO. The result is plain nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water, all of which are essentially harmless. But to work, the lambda value must be just right. If the mixture is too rich then the oxygen in the NOx is not enough to give to the HC and CO, so they pass through unconverted. If the mixture is too lean then the "spare" oxygen is given to the HC and CO, and the NOx passes through unconverted. The overall effect of lambda on post-catalyst emissions is like this:



There is a very narrow "window" between lambda 0.99 and lambda 1.00 where all three pollutants are effectively cleaned up. It is precisely because the engine must operate in this "window" that modern engines are fitted with lambda sensors.
Now, under most circumstances the lambda sensor will correct for any fuelling deviations introduced by the "fuel saving device". But the sensor has limited "authority" - it can only add up to about 10 - 15% additional fuel, since otherwise a faulty sensor could result in an extremely rich mixture, leading to engine problems. If the deviation exceeds this limit, then the lambda sensor can no longer compensate and a lean mixture is the result. So the result of fitting one of these devices may be a lambda around 1.05 - 1.10. This will give a small improvement in fuel consumption (about 2 - 5%) and, as the graph above shows, reductions in HC and CO. This sort of result is often shown by makers of such devices as "proof" of emissions reduction. However, the NOx emissions will increase massively - perhaps 20 times - as the catalyst can no longer clean them up. Since NOx is not usually measured by workshop test equipment, this is not picked up. The overall effect is a very large increase in toxic pollutants, which does not fit the "green" claims of such devices.

[odeereambillo]

Mga Sir, Ma'am:

odee reambillo lang po-dealer ng Khaos. i come in peace.

konting background lang po how i got into this business... i was looking for a fuel saving device because my galant gti 92 was consuming 5-6 km/li (city). One of my friends saw one at banawe and the vehicle owner even testified na effective nga daw. til he got one for his car. when i went to have one installed on the galant, i learned na open for dealership pa daw. tested the product, effective, so i applied for dealership.

Eventually, I met Mr Planas and had a chat with him. he mentioned he's an automotive graduate and a mechanic by profession and that the product has been invented by him 30 years ago pa and nagbebenta siya ng paisa-isa depende sa o-order sa kanya. til he met someone who financed for the mass production of the product which started late last year. He mentioned that for the past thirty years na mina-market niya ang product niya, he said na kung may mali man sa product and ma-prove na meron ngang mali, he will gladly put the production of the device to a complete halt. He also mentioned that he believes that this business that he is into right now is a GIFT. That is why he sincerely mean na if something is wrong with the device or kung nakakadagdag man siya sa pollution, ititigil niya.

And I believe in the sincerity of the humble man. that is why i adopted his same principle which prompted me to carry a money-back guarantee policy. (eventually became the policy of Inventionhaus narin)

I am very thankful for the concern of many, that it might be emiting NOx (or some poisonous substance) that testing facilities dont indicate. that is why (also) i mentioned to bluegsr na ipapa-test namin oto niya and raijuta's para ma-check talaga (at my expense)

sir ghost,

With regard to the vacuum reading, I humbly request if i may demo to you (at your convenient place and time) how and where we get the vacuum reading before and after installation (mejo hirap i describe sa text, and para ma-appreciate nyo narin po ung product) no commitments po, just like what i offered to Mr Blugsr and Mr Raijuta.

Honestly, I myself is amazed on how this device works (even on EFI's), mayroon naman po akong konting background sa reciprocating both carb and EFI engines (BS Aero Sci lang po ang course ko)

Sana po paunlakan nyo mga request ko.

thanks & more POWER!

Odee
S&PT

[Bogeyman]

ghosthunter:

I think this is your chance to once and for all prove if this product works or not. Maybe you can bring along some of the admin na rin, to represent the rest of us. Whether this product passes or fails scrutiny, the test might be lent a measure of credibility if done under the observation of tsikot.com.

My 2 cents.

[mazdamazda]

here's a list of devices that have been tested by the EPA. it sure is a long list.

EPA Evaluation Efforts
The EPA evaluates or tests products to determine whether their use will result in any significant improvement or detriment to fuel economy. However, the EPA cannot say what effect gas-saving products will have on a vehicle over time because it hasn't conducted any durability tests. It's possible that some products may harm the car or may otherwise adversely affect its performance. In fact, today's vehicles' emission control systems are very sophisticated and complex. They have On Board Diagnostic features that alert the driver to problems associated with the emission control and fuel delivery systems. Retrofit products may have an adverse effect on these systems.

Devices Tested by EPA
The following list categorizes various types of "gas-saving" products, explains how they're used and gives product names. Those with asterisks may save measurable, but small, amounts of gas. All others have been found not to increase fuel economy.

Air Bleed Devices. These devices bleed air into the carburetor. They usually are installed in the Positive Crankcase Ventilation line or as a replacement for idle-mixture screws.

The EPA has evaluated the following products: ADAKS Vacuum Breaker Air Bleed; Air-Jet Air Bleed; Aquablast Wyman Valve Air Bleed; Auto-Miser; Ball-Matic Air Bleed; Berg Air Bleed; Brisko PCV; Cyclone-Z; Econo Needle Air Bleed; Econo-Jet Air Bleed Idle Screws; Fuel Max*; Gas Saving Device; Grancor Air Computer; Hot Tip; Landrum Mini-Carb; Landrum Retrofit Air Bleed; Mini Turbocharger Air Bleed; Monocar HC Control Air Bleed; Peterman Air Bleed; Pollution Master Air Bleed; Ram-Jet; Turbo-Dyne G.R. Valve.

Vapor Bleed Devices. These devices are similar to the air bleed devices, except that induced air is bubbled through a container of a water and anti-freeze mixture, usually located in the engine compartment.

The EPA has evaluated: Atomized Vapor Injector; Frantz Vapor Injection System; Hydro-Vac: POWERFUeL; Mark II Vapor Injection System; Platinum Gasaver; V-70 Vapor Injector; SCATPAC Vacuum Vapor Induction System: Econo-Mist Vacuum Vapor Injection System; Turbo Vapor Injection System.

Liquid Injection. These products add liquid into the fuel/air intake system and not directly into the combustion chamber.
The EPA has evaluated: Goodman Engine System-Model 1800; Waag-Injection System*.

Ignition Devices. These devices are attached to the ignition system or are used to replace original equipment or parts.
The EPA has evaluated: Autosaver; Baur Condenser; BIAP Electronic Ignition Unit; Fuel Economizer; Magna Flash Ignition Control System; Paser Magnum/Paser 500/Paser 500 HEI; Special Formula Ignition Advance Springs.

Fuel Line Devices (heaters or coolers). These devices heat the fuel before it enters the carburetor. Usually, the fuel is heated by the engine coolant or by the exhaust or electrical system.
The EPA has evaluated: FuelXpander; Gas Meiser I; Greer Fuel Preheater; Jacona Fuel System; Optimizer; Russell Fuelmiser.

Fuel Line Devices (magnets). These magnetic devices, clamped to the outside of the fuel line or installed in the fuel line, claim to change the molecular structure of gasoline.

The EPA has evaluated: PETRO-MIZER; POLARION-X; Super-Mag Fuel Extender; Wickliff Polarizer [fuel line magnet/intake air magnet].

Fuel Line Devices (metallic). Typically, these devices contain several dissimilar metals that are installed in the fuel line, supposedly causing ionization of the fuel.

The EPA has evaluated: Malpassi Filter King [fuel pressure regulator]; Moleculetor.

Mixture Enhancers (under the carburetor). These devices are mounted between the carburetor and intake manifold and supposedly enhance the mixing or vaporization of the air/fuel mixture.

The EPA has evaluated: Energy Gas Saver; Environmental Fuel Saver; Gas Saving and Emission Control Improvement Device; Glynn-50; Hydro-Catalyst Pre-Combustion Catalyst System; PETROMIZER SYSTEM; Sav-A-Mile; Spritzer; Turbo-Carb; Turbocarb.

Mixture Enhancers (others). These devices make some general modifications to the vehicle intake system.

The EPA has evaluated: Basko Enginecoat; Dresser Economizer; Electro-Dyne Superchoke; Filtron Urethane Foam Filter; Lamkin Fuel Metering Device; Smith Power and Deceleration Governor.

Internal Engine Modifications. These devices make physical or mechanical function changes to the engine.

The EPA has evaluated: ACDS Automotive Cylinder Deactivation System*; Dresser Economizer; MSU Cylinder Deactivation*.

Accessory Drive Modifiers. These devices reduce power to specific auto accessories.

The EPA has evaluated: Morse Constant Speed Accessory Drive **; P.A.S.S. Kit**; PASS Master Vehicle Air Conditioner**.

Fuels and Fuel Additives. These materials are added to the gas tank.

The EPA has evaluated: Bycosin; EI-5 Fuel Additive; Fuelon Power; Johnson Fuel Additive; NRG #1 Fuel Additive; QEI 400 Fuel Additive; Rolfite Upgrade Fuel Additive; Sta-Power Fuel Additive; Stargas Fuel Additive; SYNeRGy-1; Technol G Fuel Additive; ULX-15/ULX-15D; Vareb 10 Fuel Additive; XRG #1 Fuel Additive.

Oils and Oil Additives. Usually these materials are poured into the crankcase.

The EPA has evaluated: Analube Synthetic Lubricant; Tephguard.

Driving Habit Modifiers. These are lights or sound devices to tell the driver to reduce acceleration or to shift gears.

The EPA has evaluated: AUTOTHERM**; Fuel Conservation Device; Gastell; IDALERT**.

Miscellaneous. The EPA has evaluated: BRAKE-EZ; Dynamix; Fuel Maximiser; Gyroscopic Wheel Cover; Kamei Spoilers**; Kat's Engine Heater; Lee Exhaust and Fuel Gasification EGR; Mesco Moisture Extraction System; P.S.C.U. 01 Device; Treis Emulsifier.

* Indicated a very small improvement in fuel economy but with an increase in exhaust emissions. According to Federal regulations, installation of this device could be considered illegal tampering.

** Indicated a very small improvement in fuel economy without an increase in exhaust emissions. However, cost-effectiveness must be determined by the consumer for a particular application.

[niky]

Interesting how there have been aftermarket cylinder cut-off systems... too bad these things don't meet emissions, but that would be obvious, since engine electronics and fuel systems aren't built to compensate.

mazdamazda, you really should submit that research to the DOTC... we should put an end to this nonsense, once and for all.

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by odeereambillo
... mayroon naman po akong konting background sa reciprocating both carb and EFI engines (BS Aero Sci lang po ang course ko)

Just letting you know, I kinda have a background in engines too (BS Mechanical Engineering lang naman). And some years worth of tinkering around with my cars.

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by odeereambillo

sir ghost,

With regard to the vacuum reading, I humbly request if i may demo to you (at your convenient place and time) how and where we get the vacuum reading before and after installation (mejo hirap i describe sa text, and para ma-appreciate nyo narin po ung product) no commitments po, just like what i offered to Mr Blugsr and Mr Raijuta.

Well, you can simply draw your diagram over the picture:



what kind of tubing was used, where along the intake tube or manifold, etc was is inserted to take the pressure readings, testing before and after, what equiptment were used, were they cabibrated BEFORE to check accuracy, etc.

Hey, we are both engineers by training, we should at least be able to keep record of all observations, right?

If you are able validate your data and figures on paper, I think typing it out here wouldn't be so hard.

Think if it as your thesis back in college. Defend your paper.

[odeereambillo]

Sir Ghosthunter,

I humbly submit to the knowledge, intellect and experience you have as regards engines and all. that is mainly the reason why I prefer you to test the product of Mr Planas.

Your most convenient time and place if you please.

thanks & more POWER!

Odee
S&PT

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by odeereambillo

sir ghost,

With regard to the vacuum reading, I humbly request if i may demo to you (at your convenient place and time) how and where we get the vacuum reading before and after installation (mejo hirap i describe sa text, and para ma-appreciate nyo narin po ung product) no commitments po, just like what i offered to Mr Blugsr and Mr Raijuta.

btw, I personally don't care if you even get positive pressure readings from your pressure guage simply because it is just diverting attention from the main issue at hand.

[ghosthunter]

Originally posted by odeereambillo
Mga Sir, Ma'am:

odee reambillo lang po-dealer ng Khaos. i come in peace.

konting background lang po how i got into this business... i was looking for a fuel saving device because my galant gti 92 was consuming 5-6 km/li (city). One of my friends saw one at banawe and the vehicle owner even testified na effective nga daw. til he got one for his car. when i went to have one installed on the galant, i learned na open for dealership pa daw. tested the product, effective, so i applied for dealership.

Product testimonials doesn't prove that something works or anything. It is just marketing hype and marketing strategy.

I have been posting technical info that disproves the effectiveness of said product in its claims. maybe you can also post relavant info and technical data that supports YOUR claims?

[odeereambillo]

Sir Ghosthunter,

should we do the demo para di tayo ma-divert sa issue at hand?

thanks & more POWER!

Odee
S&PT