Diesel Fuel Injection System Help Desk

[rion]

tama nga, mas mabuti kung malapit lang sa makina at lagyan lang ng cooling fan para iwas butas, bato o tubig...

okey lang po ba ang pressure kung kahit anong intercooler ang gamitin ko like from Sportage o Mitsu 4d56 sa Toyo 3C-T namin? some thread I found here says that it may lose pressure if you add an intercooler, but Imo I don't find it negative since intercoolers have small passage.

o baka puwede rin yung intercooler ng evo?

someone posted in other thread that 4d56T intercooler surplus costs 3k-4k. Ouch... for spending just to have fun... sana may 2k, kung wala, baka nextyear ko nalang ituloy....

[Dieseldude]

DieselDude at mga Expert Guys,

kacheck ko lang sa spare Toyota 3C-tdi engine namin, hindi pala kasama yung Intercooler(Radiator/condenser) ba tawag nyan? Does the 3C-TDI originally have an intercooler? If this is an add-on you are planning, power gains will not be substantial.

anyways, mukhang simple lang pala... I think... you just connect from the Turbo output, then out to the intake right? Turbo-to-Intercooler-to-Intake
It is simple talaga but......

then how much would a Surplus intercooler cost? D ko Alam. Ano kaya ang brand na pinaka smallest or the most thin/compact cooler? Using an undersized intercooler will put air restrictions and may cause low power problems due to insufficient air flow to your engine. Make sure that you are getting the right size. Surplus lang siguro ang bilhin ko kasi mura at pang experiment/fun lang. Correct.

at okey po ba ilagay siya sa ilalim ng van? just 5-8 degrees, at lagyan lang ng protection against rocks and hard surface just like our Aircon's condensers are located... Intercoolers are ideally located nearest the turbo's air discharge port and the engine intake manifold to save on hose, plumbing, and clamping costs, as well as to minimize on parasitic losses due to the added weight. You also need good hoses as they operate on vacuum (no boost) and pressure (on boost). Hoses can collapse on vacuum mode with a restricted air filter. Hoses can also burst if your boost pressure is too high, of if they rub onto other vehicle components due to insufficient clamping.

ilustrated in this 1 minute drawing from photoshop:

Looks simple but ........., not that simple. Enjoy your experiment.

[kakabakaba_kaba]

Sir what's fuel knock po?

[Beefcake]

Baka naman engine knock?

[Dieseldude]

Sir what's fuel knock po?
Fuel knock is a condition wherein the engine knocks loudly like a mechanical hammering within, and is often more evident as the engine is revved up.

This can occur as a single knock on a specific cylinder every two engine revolutions. Most probable cause is a faulty injector nozzle. To determine which cylinder is knocking, loosen one injector pipe at a time. This will allow fuel to leak off, and no fuel will be delivered to the specific injector. The cylinder which ceases to knock has the faulty nozzle.

Knock can also be multiple, occurring on all cylinders. Most probable cause is an advanced fuel injection pump timing, and/or faulty EGR system.........

Are you having this problem now?

[kakabakaba_kaba]

Are you having this problem now?

Am not so sure sir. One of the mechanic in Autotechnika told me that it was "fuel knocking" but i just had my injection pump calibrated at Betan last summer.

[Dieseldude]

Am not so sure sir. One of the mechanic in Autotechnika told me that it was "fuel knocking" but i just had my injection pump calibrated at Betan last summer.

You are the better judge of your vehicle's condition than any mechanic as you drive it regularly. Did you specifically request the shop to correct a fuel knock problem when you first brought it in?

By the way, what is your vehicle?

Keep me posted.

[mad_max168]

Dieseldude,

What happens with a diesel engine with a too lean fuel mixture?

What happens with it if its too rich?

Whats the difference with an advanced injection pump timing and a retarded one?

Any info on these is highly appreciated. Thanks.

[rion]

Does the 3C-TDI originally have an intercooler? If this is an add-on you are planning, power gains will not be substantial.

no this is not an add-on. there are 3C-T and 3C-Te variants. the 3C-T has no Intercooler while 3C-Te has intercooler installed, but same engine displacement and Turbo.

Intercoolers are ideally located nearest the turbo's air discharge port and the engine intake manifold to save on hose, plumbing, and clamping costs, as well as to minimize on parasitic losses due to the added weight.

unfortunately I'm out of space, I will have to put it under the bumper that will cost me atleast 1 meter each on IN and another 1 meter on OUT.

though there is another better location, putting it in the middle near the exhaust catalyst, will cost me just half a meter hose each... if I can find a smaller intercooler because the 4d56 intercooler is a bit big....

follow up question lang po, can I boost pressure in the turbo just by adjusting packing between the compressor housing and the wastegate mounting bracket with washers?

and should I increase the fuel pump timing after installing the intercooler?

determined po ako mag experiment but I'm still wating for my brother to go with me to buy the intercooler. madali kasi ako ma-oto eh...

additional question din sa engine knock... how about you hear knocks on idle, but on High revs nawa-wala naman...? is it an engine knock or something else?

[Dieseldude]

no this is not an add-on. there are 3C-T and 3C-Te variants. the 3C-T has no Intercooler while 3C-Te has intercooler installed, but same engine displacement and Turbo.

unfortunately I'm out of space, I will have to put it under the bumper that will cost me atleast 1 meter each on IN and another 1 meter on OUT.

though there is another better location, putting it in the middle near the exhaust catalyst, will cost me just half a meter hose each... if I can find a smaller intercooler because the 4d56 intercooler is a bit big....

follow up question lang po, can I boost pressure in the turbo just by adjusting packing between the compressor housing and the wastegate mounting bracket with washers? Yes you can, but I don't recommend it. Measure your boost at full load before making any adjustments.

and should I increase the fuel pump timing after installing the intercooler? Don't make any changes first. Your intial timing is probably ok.

determined po ako mag experiment but I'm still wating for my brother to go with me to buy the intercooler. madali kasi ako ma-oto eh...

additional question din sa engine knock... how about you hear knocks on idle, but on High revs nawa-wala naman...? is it an engine knock or something else? Some diesel engines seem to knock a bit louder at low idle.

Try to do it one thing at a time. First, measure your engine's performance at it's present condition. Then add the intercooler and check performance again. Then, do the wastegate adjustment if you really want, and measure again. ........ then injection timing. This way, you can really gauge if improvement was gained in each modification phase.

[Dieseldude]

Dieseldude,

What happens with a diesel engine with a too lean fuel mixture?
Low fuel setting = low power.

What happens with it if its too rich?
High fuel setting = a bit more power, but a lot more on fuel consumption, black smoke, and engine wear.

Diesel injection pumps are adjusted to strictly conform to manufacturer's test data, no more / no less. This is called calibration. Authorized injection pump service shops have the necessary calibration info for various injection pumps.

Whats the difference with an advanced injection pump timing and a retarded one? Injection pump timing is the exact point when injection begins, often expressed as a specific crank angle before top dead center, eg: 20 degrees BTDC.

If the engine's specified injection timing is 20 degrees BTDC, putting the timing on 21 degrees or more would be advanced, and putting it at 19 degrees or less would retarded.


Any info on these is highly appreciated. Thanks.

Good questions.

[mad_max168]

Dieseldude,

I have some followup questions on my previous questions:

What happens with a diesel engine with a too lean fuel mixture?
Low fuel setting = low power.
Would there also be a possibility of overheating of the engine on such condition upon acceleration?

What happens with it if its too rich?
High fuel setting = a bit more power, but a lot more on fuel consumption, black smoke, and engine wear.

Diesel injection pumps are adjusted to strictly conform to manufacturer's test data, no more / no less. This is called calibration. Authorized injection pump service shops have the necessary calibration info for various injection pumps.


Whats the difference with an advanced injection pump timing and a retarded one? Injection pump timing is the exact point when injection begins, often expressed as a specific crank angle before top dead center, eg: 20 degrees BTDC.

If the engine's specified injection timing is 20 degrees BTDC, putting the timing on 21 degrees or more would be advanced, and putting it at 19 degrees or less would retarded.

Would advancing the timing of the injection pump give better engine response? Would it also consume more fuel? Will it cause faster engine wear and overheating?

How about retarding the timing? Would it cause sluggish engine performance? Would it consume less fuel? Will it cause engine to overheat and faster engine wear?


Any info on these is highly appreciated. Thanks again.

[Dieseldude]

Dieseldude,

I have some followup questions on my previous questions:

What happens with a diesel engine with a too lean fuel mixture?
Low fuel setting = low power.
Would there also be a possibility of overheating of the engine on such condition upon acceleration?
No.

What happens with it if its too rich?
High fuel setting = a bit more power, but a lot more on fuel consumption, black smoke, and engine wear.

Diesel injection pumps are adjusted to strictly conform to manufacturer's test data, no more / no less. This is called calibration. Authorized injection pump service shops have the necessary calibration info for various injection pumps.

Whats the difference with an advanced injection pump timing and a retarded one? Injection pump timing is the exact point when injection begins, often expressed as a specific crank angle before top dead center, eg: 20 degrees BTDC. If the engine's specified injection timing is 20 degrees BTDC, putting the timing on 21 degrees or more would be advanced, and putting it at 19 degrees or less would retarded.

In the same way, setting the timing at 30 degrees BTDC would also be advanced (more advanced), and timing it at 0 degrees TDC would be retarded (more retarded). Engine performance degrades as injection timing drifts further from specs.

Would advancing the timing of the injection pump give better engine response? Would it also consume more fuel? Will it cause faster engine wear and overheating? This will depend on how far timing has been altered.

How about retarding the timing? Would it cause sluggish engine performance? Would it consume less fuel? Will it cause engine to overheat and faster engine wear? Same answer as above.

A diesel engine operates on various speeds and loads, which require variable timing. Most injection systems can dynamically change injection timing to suit the engine's operating condition. Emission laws on noise and exhaust pollutants also have an influence on the timing specification. The engine manufacturer considers these variables and determines the optimal injection timing for a specific engine model and power rating.
Any info on these is highly appreciated. Thanks again.

Have a nice day.

[promdiboy]

sir diesel dude I went to two diffrent shops for calibration, had them quote me the price and parts. 4m40 ITD engine why is it that their parts to be replaced are not the same. same price 17k. shops are denso banawe and central diesel clinic.

[Dieseldude]

sir diesel dude I went to two diffrent shops for calibration, had them quote me the price and parts. 4m40 ITD engine why is it that their parts to be replaced are not the same. same price 17k. shops are denso banawe and central diesel clinic.

Promdiboy

You were probably given a high value estimate assuming that you just inquired, without the shop actually dismantling your pump. The actual & more exact estimate will be given to you upon opening the pump assembly, and actual inspection of parts to be replaced. Once the pump is opened then it is off calibration specs and you will have to proceed with having it calibrated.This is the reason why customers ask about the amount that they will more or less spend before deciding to proceed with the work.

Sometimes, it is just a difference of part description among shops. Send your pump to where you are comfortable with. Check out their facilities, and then decide where you want to have it done. Also ask about the length of warranties offered on their work....and compare.

[Hibiki]

Sir DieselDude,

I had my Pump calibrated almost 3months ago. Last week the delivery valve leaked and I had to ask the calibration shop to check it. They replaced an o-ring in the valve and the leak stopped. After using the vehicle since then, I noticed that the engine became louder and consumes more fuel compared to before. Do you think there is some other problem with my pump? Perhaps the leak was just one symptom?

Thanks.

[Dieseldude]

Sir DieselDude,

I had my Pump calibrated almost 3months ago. Last week the delivery valve leaked and I had to ask the calibration shop to check it. They replaced an o-ring in the valve and the leak stopped. After using the vehicle since then, I noticed that the engine became louder and consumes more fuel compared to before. Do you think there is some other problem with my pump? Perhaps the leak was just one symptom?

Thanks.

So many things can cause the problems stated above such as: a faulty injection pump (improper calibration), wrong injection timing, bad injectors, etc. What is your vehicle? It could really be louder as the previously leaking fuel is now fed back to your engine. What was your previous fuel consumption, and what is it today after the leak was corrected?

Did the fuel shop pull down your pump to replace the o-ring? I am asking you this question because the pump may not have been properly timed during reinstallation.

I suggest you bring it back to the shop where you had it done, and ask for warranty service. Most shops give a 6 months warranty as we do.

[Hibiki]

Thank you for the response.

The vehicle is an Isuzu Pickup (4ja1). It was a bit loud as all Isuzu vehicles are but the idling was smooth. Now, it is loud and erratic (magaralgal). Before, I get 12km city driving and 14-16 hiway. As of yesterday, I'm getting less around 9km/liter mixed city/hway.

They did not pull out the pump when they replaced the o-ring. They just removed the delivery valve, replaced the o-ring, and then reinstalled the valve. They used a calipher to check the length of the protruding end of the valve screw (my guess is to approximate the amount of fuel delivery --- is this the correct way?)

You're right, i think I will bring the vehicle to the Calibration shop for another testing.

Thanks.

[2Dmax]

DIESELDUDE,

i have a ISUZU pick-up LS '94 model. engine is 4JA1. my problem is that my oil level keeps on rising. last change oil, we just used 4.5 liters of oil, and it was in the maximum level. then after 2 weeks, it was 1 inch above the maximum level. now it's 2 inch above the maximum. i consulted a mechanic and said that the diesel fuel might be entering inside the engine, mixing with my engine oil. pls help on this matter. thanks..

[Dieseldude]

Thank you for the response.

The vehicle is an Isuzu Pickup (4ja1). It was a bit loud as all Isuzu vehicles are but the idling was smooth. Now, it is loud and erratic (magaralgal). Before, I get 12km city driving and 14-16 hiway. As of yesterday, I'm getting less around 9km/liter mixed city/hway.

They did not pull out the pump when they replaced the o-ring. They just removed the delivery valve, replaced the o-ring, and then reinstalled the valve. They used a calipher to check the length of the protruding end of the valve screw (my guess is to approximate the amount of fuel delivery --- is this the correct way?)

You're right, i think I will bring the vehicle to the Calibration shop for another testing.

Thanks.

Fuego 4x2

Go ahead and have your pump re-checked under warranty claim. And ask for a retimining on engine upon installation. By the term "calbration" itself...would mean that your pump should pass all the specifications your pump has to adhere to as per OEM (Original Equipment Specications) No more no less... This spec sheet from the OE is given to authorized shops. Try to find out if they have this, otherwise it could all be guesswork. This spec sheet is particular to your pump assy. number which you will find in your pump data plate. If they have this, then you can be comfortable that they know what they are doing. Good luck