Hydrogen Fuel: a sobering look at where it's going...

[niky]

http://motortrend.com/features/consu...gen/index.html

I like how they compared the hydrogen initiative support of politicians to baby-kissing.

But seriously, reading that kinda makes you realize how far other alternative technologies have progressed while big name companies have been pouring billions into hydrogen research.

[empy]

yeah, it always sounded like it was tough to get off the ground. i thought the biggest obstacles to it were infrastructure (pipelines?), safety, and onboard storage, in that order.

[yebo]

people in the know are not very keen on hydrogen because the use of it in vehicles is not really a solution to the time when the oil wells all dry out (in about 30 years time). using hydrogen simply transfers the burden of energy production from one place (the gasoline or diesel engine in your car) to another (the power plants that will provide the tremendous amounts of electricity needed to separate hydrogen from H2O, to liquify it and then to store it). and hydrogen powered internal combustion engines are also not that efficient.

electric cars are more promissing than hydrogen powered cars. the reason is simple. the best electric motors run at almost 99% efficiency while internal combustion engines theoretically can only go as high as 37%. so why double the losses (produce hydrogen using a nuclear power plant running at 47%, then produce mechanical power in the car using an internal combustion engine) when you can eliminate most of the losses in the car by using batteries and electric motors.

one possible use of hydrogen is in electric cells that power electric motors, but that too is too heavy and by its weight alone will negate whatever increase in efficiency provided by the electric motors.

in the end, i believe, the electric motor-battery combination will prevail over the hydrogen-internal combustion engine or the hydrogen power cell-electric motors. reason is simple, they already have plastic batteries that can store more energy that ordinary lead acid battery, and it will not be long before they can put as much electric energy in a battery the size of a gas tank and still give the same mileage as 1 tank of 95 octane.

although this solution still does not get away from the problem stated in the first pharagraph above (transferring burden of energy production), if the fusion reactors they are working on will work then that is no longer an issue. the world can have all the energy it needs and not be afraid of ever running out.

[niky]

Fusion is so far away at this point it's not funny. Because of the expense of Fusion research, a lot of governments and big business have been turned off by it.

Galing mo, sir yebo... that's the same argument I have against the so-called hydrogen-powered vehicles made by local inventors... you need so much battery power to run an electrolysis machine that if you had enough battery power to make it feasible, you could run the car off the batteries themselves.

I particularly like the idea of ultracapacitors... and I have seen in the past few years how rechargeable batteries have gone from 15-minute wonders to powerhouses that outlast disposables by up to ten or twenty times on one charge cycle...

[yebo]

what's the news about this fusion reactor they are building in France? di pa yata tapos eh, but they are putting billions into it. sana umandar.

talking about that fool inventor na na-feature pa sa tv, hehehe! hydrogen generator powered by a car battery and alternator! and he claims the alternator alone can produce enough power to produce enough hydrogen which then powers the engine! here we go again, PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINES! those filipino "inventors" should know that the laws of physics and chemistry were made by God and not by men, and therefore can not be changed by their so-called "genius". mga kamag-anak ba ni erap mga yan at lahat ng laws e akala nila pwede i-repeal??? (remember the erap joke about the law of supply and demand hehehe!)

[iqaruzz]

i feel like im in school again.

in my opinion, methane can be an alternatives.
since every living creature produces it (fart power).well atleast bacteria products.

they have to be serious about it. methane is one of green house gasses that add to the reductions of ozone.

[empy]

Originally posted by iqaruzz
in my opinion, methane can be an alternatives.

yes, in fact it has been a proven success in limited applications. many US city public transport (buses) run on natural gas, and there are some regular cars, called FFV's (or flexible fuel vehicles) that can run on it as well. and their exhaust doesn't smell like farts! :D

the biggest problem with NG is probably distribution...but if automakers and governments are committed for the long term, i don't see how this wouldn't happen.


edit: i'm actually talking about compressed and liquefied natural gas (CNG and LNG), of which methane is actually an emission and a component.

[ILuvDetailing]

Ok lets say in 30 years oil wells dries out... what alternatives would be feasible here in RP? I can't see an electric/battery powered car here because of the flood problem.

[niky]

Any flood that can kill a sealed electric motor would likely kill a gasoline motor, too... so that's not a problem.

The most realistic and near-term solution would be an LPG or CNG powered hybrid-electric. There is already a limited distribution infrastructure in place for LPG.

As for Fusion, who knows? It will likely take many years more and probably another trillion (that's right... 1,000,000,000,000) dollars worth of research to even make it feasible. It's like hydrogen research per se... there are too many breakthroughs needed to make it work... it will be a long time coming...

[ice15]

[ice15]

Toyota is developing a Hilux that runs on hydrogen fuel | TopGear PH

[ice15]

Toyota Builds Hilux Prototype That Emits Water As Its Only Emission | CarGuide

[ice15]

Gotcha! Hydrogen fuel-cell 2024 Honda CR-V spied in Japan, features plug-in capability | Autofun

This is likely the FCEV CR-V that will initially be launched in Japan and the U.S. in 2024.

The FCEV CR-V, which was announced on December 2022, will debut the hydrogen fuel-cell powertrain that is being co-developed by Honda Cars and American car giant General Motors.

In theory, the driver can refuel with hydrogen in a matter of minutes, as opposed to waiting for 30 minutes to charge an EV at a DC fast charger (excluding time spent queuing).

[ice15]

320 miles, one fuel station, and a forgotten hydrogen promise
The Verge

[Dr.Kamiya]

I recall watching another similar road trip of a hydrogen car. Refueling can get really slow, or even fail altogether when the gas station starts to run low because everything is pressurized.

If the pressure differential between the storage tank and the car being fueled is low, then flow is almost non-existent.

[ice15]

BEYOND ZERO Toyota Corolla Cross H2 Hydrogen Combustion Prototype Exclusive Look
ZigWheels Philippines

[ice15]

Another big car company gives up on hydrogen | Engadget

Stellantis, the automotive giant behind Chrysler, Citroen, Fiat, Jeep and Peugeot, is pulling out of hydrogen. The company said it’s killing its fuel cell development program in the face of “limited availability of hydrogen refueling infrastructure, high capital requirements and the need for stronger consumer purchasing incentives.”

[bmacavanza]

I would still prefer a hydrogen car

[ice15]

GM ends development of hydrogen fuel cells | Engadget

GM announced that it will end its HYDROTEC brand's work on hydrogen fuel cell development. Instead, GM will focus its R&D efforts on batteries, charging technologies and electric vehicles. The company said it will continue its Fuel Cell System Manufacturing joint venture with Honda, which creates cells for data centers and power generation.