E10 Ethanol, bad for your engine & economy? [MERGED]

[Karding]

Ang pinagtataka ko lang, kahit na may Ethanol blend ang gas bakit hindi bumababa and presyo ng gas? for example, nung 1994 pa may Ethanol ang gas sa US stations. But yet, the prices are the same. So, nasaan ang "savings" na tinatawag ng mga Ethanol producers and Oilers?

Kahit yata tubeg ihalo sa gas ganun pa din ang prices :bwahaha:

[falken]

Ang pinagtataka ko lang, kahit na may Ethanol blend ang gas bakit hindi bumababa and presyo ng gas? for example, nung 1994 pa may Ethanol ang gas sa US stations. But yet, the prices are the same. So, nasaan ang "savings" na tinatawag ng mga Ethanol producers and Oilers?

Kahit yata tubeg ihalo sa gas ganun pa din ang prices :bwahaha:

Nasa bulsa ng gas station owners.
Dapat naman talaga kahit papaano may konting savings, lalo na ngayong $65/bbl ang crude oil compared to Ethanol $22/bbl.

[Mojo]

Karding

hindi naman goal ng pag halo ng ethanol ng gas is cost reduction, more like forex savings at import substitution.

Kasi nga ethanol is not cheap to produce, but as petroleum prices rise it becomes more attractive, pero same dilemna din yan ng oil refineries, as they produce more ethanol, drill/extract oil from expensive wells, you need capital investment at cost per barrell increases.

Kaya ang mahal ng Petroleum prices ngayon, kasi nag bubuffer na ang opec ng pera para sa pag drill/extract sa mga oil deposits na mahal i extract per barrel para lang I meet ang world demand.

sa ethanol ganun din, kailangan ng capital/refinery plus raw supply ng biomass para secrued ang supply, kaya ganun presyo kasi accounted na ang lahat ng mga ganun.

[Karding]

Karding

hindi naman goal ng pag halo ng ethanol ng gas is cost reduction, more like forex savings at import substitution.

Kasi nga ethanol is not cheap to produce,

Please read:

Ethanol is a homegrown fuel that results in job creation, increased farm income, improved air quality, and greater energy independence by reducing imports of foreign oil.

Kaya nga, import substitition is supposed to mean savings dahil hindi na dependent sa foreign oil. Well, ito ang argument ng Ethanol producers.

Pero kagaya ng sabi ko, walang epekto ang Ethanol na yan sa prices dahil 1994 pag nagumpisa mag Ethanol ang ibang Gas stations sa US pero wala namang epek sa prices.

Green lang talaga ang nagpapataas ng oil prices.

Eto Mojo, magandang basahin ito kung saan nabanggit ang cost savings kapag nag ethanol.

http://ethanol.org/

[Karding]

As I've mentioned earlier, Ethanol is replacing MTBE. That was the original plan and not to reduce cost.

California was one of the first states to ban the gasoline additive methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) after it was detected in ground water. Ethanol, a non-petroleum product usually made from corn, is being used in place of MTBE. Gasoline without MTBE is more expensive to produce and requires refineries to change the way they produce and distribute gasoline. Some supply dislocations and price surges occurred in the summer of 2003 as the State moved away from MTBE. Similar problems have also occurred in past fuel transitions.

Page last modified on Fri Aug 20 2004 10:43:19 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time). http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure...mer/primer.htm


But yet, this statement contradicts the above:

American-made, renewable ethanol directly displaces the amount of crude oil we need to import, offering our country critically needed independence and security from foreign sources of energy.

Current U.S. ethanol production of 3.5 billion gallons per year can reduce gasoline imports by 35% and effectively extends gasoline supplies at a time when refining capacity is at its maximum. The 5 billion gallon ethanol production level contemplated in the Renewable Fuels Standard could reduce oil imports by nearly 350,000 barrels per day.


Ethanol is key to reducing our country’s trade deficit in crude oil, a figure that has been steadily increasing.

http://ethanol.org/energy.html page is current.

Economics shouldnt be that hard. Produce your product locally and minimize importing, could only mean savings. But GREED supersedes economics.

[Alpha_One]

Economics shouldnt be that hard. Produce your product locally and minimize importing, could only mean savings. But GREED supersedes economics.

Ummm, no.

The reason why you're importing is very, very simple - it's cheaper for you to buy outside than for you to make it yourself. Local produce isn't necessarily better than imports, and imports aren't necessarily evil.

For example, you could make a shirt in two hours that you sells for P30. You take an hour to make bread that you can sell for P30 too. Now, if you can buy the shirt somewhere else for the same price, what would you do? Of course, you wouldn't make the two items by yourself for yourself - you save yourself an hour by making TWO units of bread, sell one, buy the shirt from somebody else and spend the one hour you save... eating your bread.

In this case, the cost in money is the same but you definitely saved time - takes you three hours to make a unit of bread and a shirt, but it only takes you two hours to make two units of bread which you can trade one bread for one shirt. That's the whole concept of trading, some countries are better at some things, and others are better at other things.</Economics lecture>

The reason why we're importing is because ethanol is quite expensive to produce and buying oil outside is (or was) simply a lot cheaper.

That's also the reason why the doctor hires the lawyer to do his legal stuff, and the lawyer hires the engineer to do his house. You can be all three, actually, but it's economically unviable!

Likewise, the reason why we're talking about it right now is because ethanol is slowly becoming economically viable due to the rising prices of oil.

Economics says resources are scarce. We aren't going ethanol because it's magic, we're doing so because it didn't seem cheap before but it does now!

[Mojo]

kaya pag ginawa natin 10% blend ethanol sigurado tataas ang price ng ethanol kasi nga ganun ang batas sa economics. para ma meet ang demand, expensive sources ang pagkukunan pag hindi na kayanan ng cheapest source

[yebo]

ever seen an oilman? ako nakakita na, ceo ng unocal. mukhang buwaya. need i say more?

[Juan Tamad]

New oil firms import 2.5 M liters of ethanol from Brazil

By MYRNA M. VELASCO


To jumpstart the utilization of ethanol as blend to gasoline products, the country’s small oil companies have imported ethanol from Brazil initially at 2.5 million liters, in time for the scheduled introduction of the product in the market by next month.

A second shipment of a higher volume of 5.0 million liters is also coming in November, to sustain the market’s needs, according to SeaOil president Glen Yu.

Pressed on how much is the acquisition cost of the ethanol product on a per liter basis, the oil firms which have planned of using it as additive by at least 10-percent blend in at least 400 gasoline stations by next month — to include Flying V and Unioil, said it’s not actually that cheap if compared to prevailing cost of gasoline.

But they noted that it will bring cost savings to consumers in the form of mileage efficiency; such as through improvement in octane ratings.

Initial estimates have indicated that if the targeted efficiency of the vehicle’s run would be achieved, this would translate to an equivalent P0.70 per liter savings for the motorists.

Yu said importation is currently the option for them, since much of the alternative fuels, which it could utilize either as blend or replacement to oil products are still under development. It would be noted that the first ethanol plant would still still be up for commercial operation in 2007.

Tapping alternative fuels has been one of the government’s policy direction to partly address the raging problem of escalating oil prices in the world market.

Brazil is currently the world’s largest ethanol producer; and is even using the product as a replacement fuel; and as reports put, this has been giving the country a lot of cost savings, especially at this time when global oil prices are on steady surge.

Its foray into ethanol production started way back the 70’s; as an upshot of the first oil shock which sent import-dependent market literally begging for supply. Reports have it that from the 1970s to the late ‘90s, ethanol yields per acre in Brazil had risen from 242 to 593 gallons.

With the importation mode being embraced by the new oil players, the other side of the argument being set forth is on whether or not estimated cost reductions would be realized; since freight alone may already eat up a significant chunk of the costs. It was further stressed that this may become a self-defeating strategy if one has to take it from goals of cornering in the much-needed foreign exchange savings and bids for the country’s energy independence.

A study earlier commissioned by the United States Agency for International Development — Sustainable Energy Development Program (USAID — SEDP) for the Philippine government entitled Techno-Economic Assessment of Ethanol as Alternative Transportation Fuel; indicated that the cost of ethanol production using molasses as feedstock is estimated at P16 to 24 per liter for feedstock costs of P2 to 3 per kilogram.

The study also set forth that sugarcane and corn were found to be economically suitable for fuel ethanol production. Project blueprints already set out by government and private sector, however, give preference to sugarcane, via the use of molasses as feedstock in ethanol production.

[RafRaf]

I guess the question is who will be saving... who ends up with the extra money? Is it the consumers or the oilers or the government?

And I guess ethanol for gasolune isn't what biodiesel is for diesel.

[wac3]

guys recently, seaoil announced that all their gasoline products will be mixed with ethanol starting september 1 yata. what is ethanol and how does it affect the mixture in gasoline? i think the government will impose the law that all gasoline products here must have ethanol by year 2006 yata eh.

[mbt]

in a nutshell, ethanol is an alcohol derived from plant bases and may be used as a fuel for internal combustion engines. it has a higher octane rating than petroleum-based gasoline, produces less harmful emissions and is reportedly cheaper per barrel. mixed in small concentrations (10%) with petroleum-based gas, no modifications are necessary to current engines and fuel systems, and there's no reduction in performance and fuel economy (there may even be improvements).

read more here:
http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21674

[sirkosero]

would that mean that prices of gas may be lower or atleast remain the same when september comes? diba parang mandatory na gumamit ng ethanol ang mga gas station?

[mbt]

depends. probably walang change, and probably tataas pa kung tuloy tuloy yung pagtaas ng crude prices worldwide. medyo immature pa yung infrastructure para sa paggawa ng ethanol dito (and CNG for that matter, which is heavily subsidized by the government at the moment)

[falken]

Sa palagay ko, mag import dapat ang gobyerno sa umpisa, habang hinihintay ang pagtayo ng mga planta ng Ethanol, kahit imported ang Ethanol, malaki pa rin ang matitipid natin.

[Karding]

would that mean that prices of gas may be lower or atleast remain the same when september comes? diba parang mandatory na gumamit ng ethanol ang mga gas station?

NO.

Sa palagay ko, mag import dapat ang gobyerno sa umpisa, habang hinihintay ang pagtayo ng mga planta ng Ethanol, kahit imported ang Ethanol, malaki pa rin ang matitipid natin.

AFAIK, Ethanol has been mixed with gas starting in 1996 in the US of A to replace the MTBE. But yet, the price is still the same.


sabi ko naman senyo eh, kahit tubeg pa ang ihalo sa gas the same pa din ang price na yan.

And like what mbt said, SEARCH. This topic has been talked about before.

[fr3d3rick]

Seaoil launches RP’s first ethanol-blended gasoline
By Rocel C. Felix
The Philippine Star 08/29/2005

The Philippines’ first environment-friendly ethanol-blended gasoline – E10 or Ethanol 10 will be launched today by Seaoil, one of the smaller oil companies backing the National Fuel Ethanol Program that seeks to reduce the country’s dependence on expensive imported oil.

The program kick off will be headed by no less than President Arroyo who will pump the first E10 gas pump dispenser at the Seaoil station along EDSA in Quezon City.

Dubbed "fuel for change", E10 is one of several alternative fuel oils the government is promoting to encourage new investments in renewable energy sources such as wind, coco-biodiesel and natural gas in the wake of a looming oil prices triggered by the relentless surge in crude oil prices in the world market.

Aside from Seaoil, the other companies putting up E10 gas pump dispensers in their stations are Eastern Petroleum Corp. and USA 88. At least 400 stations will be selling E10 this year and will be gradually expanding in the coming years.

Independent oil companies, unlike the bigger oil players such as Petron Corp. and Pilipinas Shell Petroleum Corp. that have oil refineries, are finding it more difficult to cope with spiraling oil prices and as a result, are more receptive to finding alternative fuels. Earlier this month, Flying V announced plans to expand its distribution of its new product, a diesel pre-blended coco methyl ester (CME) under the brand name Envirotek Bio-Diesel Premium.

The Department of Energy (DOE) said motorists will be able to generate savings from mileage efficiency amounting nearly P16 billion from the use of bio-diesel. On the other hand, using a one percent ethanol blend in gasoline will generate savings of $2.9 million and $7.9 million by 2008 with a 10-percent ethanol blend.

E10 is a blend of 10-percent ethanol and 90-percent gasoline. Eventually, stakeholders in the ethanol industry believe that the concentration of ethanol will be increased and it will be the "gasoline of choice" in the next few years.

Ethanol is an alternative energy resource produced from crops such as corn, grain sorghum, wheat, sugarcane and other agricultural feedstocks. It is an environment-friendly fuel because it is biodegradable and decreases greenhouse gas by 19 percent, carbon monoxide by 30 percent and toxic emissions by 22 percent. It has lower potential to damage the ozone layer. Ethanol is also found to further improve the engine performance of cars as it boosts the octane rating of gasoline and promotes better combustion.

Ethanol-blended fuels have been accepted since the 1980s. To date, leading car manufacturers worldwide have given their approval to the use of 10-percent blend to their engines, recognizing the positive benefits of ethanol.

To accelerate the implementation of the National Fuel Ethanol Program, the House of Representatives and the Senate are hammering out a consolidated bill that it hopes to enact into law before the end of the year.

Bukidnon Representative Miguel Zubiri who is chief sponsor of a bill in Congress that proposes various fiscal incentives and perks under the national ethanol program has vowed to push the passage of the bill in the Lower House by September.

Aside from spurring new investments in ethanol plants, Zubiri said mandating the use of ethanol for the transport and power sectors will also help sustain the local sugar industry.

He said sugar hectarage in the country can increase three-fold up to 900,000 hectares once the National Fuel Ethanol Act mandating the use of ethanol blend in gasoline is enacted into law.

Zubiri said that feasibility studies show that using a five percent ethanol blend will require expanding sugar hectarage by 300,000 hectares from the current 380,000 hectares. A 10-percent ethanol blend will further require raising the hectarage by another 300,000 hectares in four years.

"This is a very upbeat program, it is promising for the sugar industry which will now have a new market for its product, especially if the transport sector raises its demand for ethanol," said Zubiri.

http://philstar.com/philstar/NEWS200508290703.htm

[j_avonni]

So, ito pala yung nasa TV kagabi. The President with Cong. Zubiri, a Sea Oil Exec and the Energy Sec. Ang narinig ko a parang cheaper by P0.60 per liter and gas/ethanol.

[francisco monto]

Are ALL SeaOil stations selling ethanol? O ilan-ilan pa lang?

[1D4LV]

ilan ilan pa lang *francisco, pero they are targeting that their entire outlets in the Philippines will sell ethanol-based products by the end of the year.