Devilsown Alcohol Injection Event Results

[dvldoc]

very much satisfied of the devils own h20/meth injection system on my 2005 isuzu dmax,,,at first test run i use only pure distilled water then,
using 50/50 mixture of ethyl alcohol,,,many tnx dvldoc..
the plastic container am using is a 5 ltrs petrol tank of Stihl chain saw..

So what type of gains did you get and notice with the 50/50 mix on your vehicle. Hows your lowend and top end power.

[srbogoy]

set the kit pressure switch to 12 psi and can feel the power boost when the kit is working, that is at 80 km/h and straight up in seconds, also connected a toggle switch in cab where i can switch it off.

also compared the h20/meth kit with my Tunit, the tunit works on throttle half way pressed that is also at 80 km/h up, but i prefer using the h20/meth kit this time that is because of lower EGT's and clean combustion chamber from soot build-up.

[4JGtootsie]

Did a 50/50 mix on a 4JG2-TC with M3 nozzle and it went well no lag, no hesitation and no EGT problems.

[dvldoc]

set the kit pressure switch to 12 psi and can feel the power boost when the kit is working, that is at 80 km/h and straight up in seconds, also connected a toggle switch in cab where i can switch it off.

also compared the h20/meth kit with my Tunit, the tunit works on throttle half way pressed that is also at 80 km/h up, but i prefer using the h20/meth kit this time that is because of lower EGT's and clean combustion chamber from soot build-up.

You can use the systems together plus with the alcohol injection you can set it lower to get the power sooner. I checked out there site to bad they don't use real dyno results just estimation based off advertised factory power which is power at the crank and not how much a vehicle makes. You can take a factory rated power and take off around 17% for drive train loss and that is closer to the vehicles power.

But chipped vehicles along with alcohol injection can get up to 40% more power not that is a good thing for the drive trains there but works well on US vehicles.

Glad your happy with your results, The alcohol injection should be providing more power and a better power curve than the chip due to the cooling effect.

And now people know the product works just as advertised. This is about the best modification you can do to any turbo diesel period.

We will probably offer a dyno again at speedlab. This time a automatic. We like testing them with around 5 to 6psi activation so you see the potential over the full powerband.

PM if anyone is interested. Speedlab should have kits in about 2 weeks in stock I am really wanting to do a Fortuner or newer Starex or CRDI vehicle.

And now no waisting money on Biodiesel because it's gains are minor in comparison.

[userfriendly]

Just found this thread. Looks interesting. Some questions though.

1. Do I understand correctly that this works for both diesel and petrol engines? what about lpg powered cars?
2. This mixes with the fuel, correct? What happens to the water?
3. You claim lower intake and exhuast gas temps, does this mean a cooler running engine? Wont this make the engine run cooler than it was designed for?
4. What kind of fuel economy figures are we looking at?

Thanks.

[dvldoc]

Just found this thread. Looks interesting. Some questions though.

1. Do I understand correctly that this works for both diesel and petrol engines? what about lpg powered cars?
2. This mixes with the fuel, correct? What happens to the water?
3. You claim lower intake and exhuast gas temps, does this mean a cooler running engine? Wont this make the engine run cooler than it was designed for?
4. What kind of fuel economy figures are we looking at?

Thanks.

1. Yes it works on both diesel and petrol engines. There would be little gain in a LPG vehicle.

2. The mixture sprays into the air intake stream pulling the heat out of the air and surrounding metal surfaces. You can touch the intake and feel that it is ice cold.

3. The lower exhaust gas temps and intake temps is not a claim it is just a simple fact of alcohol injection it can be verified with a laser thermometer on the intake or EGT gauge Remember if you can't prove it don't buy it don't sell it. If you do your research you can find vehicles towing 15,000lbs loads seeing 250F EGT temps drop common in the states. This is why they use the alcohol/water injection.

Your engine operating temps will be normal it keeps the engine in the right range. Exhaust gas temps above 1250F cause damage to turbos and internal engine components. As you can see by the photo of the Stares's temp gauge it is in the normal range even after 6 dyno pulls. If you did this without the alcohol injection the temps would be elevated and the EGT temps would be high.

4. Fuel economy, that all depends on the driver. The only way to get better fuel economy is to have more power at less throttle. Anything that claims something different is a false claim. You can see up to 5-15% fuel savings depending on activation point, solution used, driving style and city or highway driving. There are alot of factors in fuel economy.

Say you drove to Baguio pulling a load and you had to have the throttle at 78% to maintain speed up the inclines and say you had alcohol injection and you only needed 55% throttle to do the same speed and your not using extra fuel like tuner chips. Then your fuel consumption is going to be lower. It will vary from vehicle to vehicle and person to person. Any company claiming blanket fuel savings without these factors you should steer clear of.

[userfriendly]

2. The mixture sprays into the air intake stream pulling the heat out of the air and surrounding metal surfaces. You can touch the intake and feel that it is ice cold.

Just to clarify, so the mixture enters the combustion chamber with the intake stroke, is compressed, combusted and exhausted just like petrol or diesel. Right?

[userfriendly]

Found the following in wiki. Any truth to it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_i..._%28engines%29

The drawback of the system is that injecting water quenches the flame in the combustion chambers somewhat, as there is no way to cool the engine parts without cooling the flame accidentally. This leads to unburned fuel out the exhaust and a characteristic trail of black smoke.

[dvldoc]

Found the following in wiki. Any truth to it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_i..._%28engines%29

Yeah maybe if you injected a non proportionally large amount of water directly into the combustion chambers.

Wiki info comes from regular folks just something to remember. Looks like they need to do a little research or real world testing before posting up something that is clearly wrong.

If you have unburnt fuel then your emissions are higher not lower as it's been proven.

You should go off of real studies and not wiki
Here's one from NASA for starters.
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/20...002-211978.pdf
http://www.cleanshipsconference.com/pdfs/Weisser.pdf
http://www.tc.gc.ca/TDC/publication/...200/14272e.pdf
http://www.energy.ca.gov/afvs/clean_diesel.html
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/projects/marine/g/9095.htm

It really does not matter which study you search for it's a proven fact back by science. And the conclusion is the same no matter the researcher.


Type in water injection emission reduction in google you'll find many US states and countries around the world have done studies at universities as well as independent studies and they all same the same thing.

Reduces emissions.

You have the emission test posted for you to look at and tell you there is a reduction as well. You can make your own conclusions from there.

Don't see any black smoke here.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wGcJ94wtQ0"]YouTube - STAREX DYNO ALCOHOL INJECTION[/ame]

Adding as little as 15% alcohol will give a diesel engine a 100% fuel burn they normally have 20 to 30% unburnt fuel , IE the black smoke. But even on pure water there is significant reductions in emissions.

I'll let the Kit owners tell you their own experiences with the vehicles reduction in black smoke.

[4JGtootsie]

Userfriendly,

I am an avid fan of turbo diesels. Where I do my apprenticeship I have seen compressors, impellers, shafts in diesel engines that some can only imagine. It is very true that the prime limiter of any turbo no matter how big or small is excessive temperature. There is no other cost effective way to cool a turbo once an intercooler/aftercooler has failed.

Injecting the water/methanol at the precise boost pressure is of prime importance to avoid quenching the flame and also preserving the mixture to last until the vehicles destination with the least ( or no) refill.

[raquino]

dvldoc,
pretty good gains on the starex, so an 18hp gain would make the tci tarex from 105 to 123hp if i'm not mistaken. this is with bypassing the intercooler. would the injection also be possible without bypassing the ic? you have said that pre-turbo injection was used in the starex. is this safe for the turbo blades or impeller? i have read from your site that preturbo injection is not ommonly used since it can damage the turbo. can you please enlighten us on this? i have a 2001 model starex and i would like to have a unit installed if my budget permits.

[4JGtootsie]

I did a resetting of the hobbs switch, increased it to 7psi or .48 bar. This will be advantageous in conserving the meth/water since its higher range where EGT really shoots. When activated acceleration becomes smoother.

Raquino,
You can put it anywhere, from the filter to the turbo you have vacuum. Turbo to IC to the intake ports you have pressure. Either way it will end up in the chamber. Where to spray it will be up to which part you want cooled the compressor wheel or the charge air in the chamber and eventually the exhaust gasses and temp.

Study your induction system, consider the lenght of tubes the WM will absorb heat before it reaches the c. chamber.

[raquino]

4JGtootsie
Raquino,
You can put it anywhere, from the filter to the turbo you have vacuum. Turbo to IC to the intake ports you have pressure. Either way it will end up in the chamber. Where to spray it will be up to which part you want cooled the compressor wheel or the charge air in the chamber and eventually the exhaust gasses and temp.

Study your induction system, consider the lenght of tubes the WM will absorb heat before it reaches the c. chamber.[/QUOTE]

ok, got your point sir. so i guess the best point is still after the ic or just before the intake. am i right? anyway i would also like to hear from dvldoc and the starex owner where they thought the nozzles were placed best. did they use two different points? it was also said that they placed it pre turbo since boost was lost when placed near the intake. what do you guys think suits best the starex?

[duskylim]

Dear Raquino:

At the March 22nd meet in Clark, I (fortunately) had a chance to ride one of the test vehicles (a Starex with turbo-intercooling) on which DevilDoc installed a kit.

Initially we weren't getting definitive results, because the guy had the habit (like clockwork) of shifting too early (about 2500 rpm) for the system to trigger. It's a good habit for saving gas but not one for testing.

At the minimum setting of 6 psi on the pressure switch, (DevilDoc believes the boost on the Starex is rather low) the system was just starting to give results when he would shift up and kill the boost, masking the results.

After several runs DevilDoc wired the system to manual trigger switch and we were really able to see how it performed.

I was in the backseat and had my eye on the tachometer all the time. You could feel when the water/meth system started to deliver as the engine note would change and the whole thing would just rev up more quickly.

If it were me, I would lose the Starex's InterCooler as it's benefits are doubtful (although the best measure would be to definitively test the thing by placing 2 thermometers in the system; 1st one before the intercooler; and the 2nd one after - the difference in temperatures would indicated a beneficial effect).

The best location for the nozzle for injection from the point of view of effect and performance would be BEFORE the turbochargers' compressor.

This would provide cooled air to the turbo, shifting the compression characteristics along a more isothermal line, which requires less work and is more efficient. The turbo would deliver more air mass even at the same speed!

The only issue with the nozzle placed BEFORE the turbo would be about damage to the turbo's impeller would be if the spray droplets were too large (coarse spray).

If you have seen damage to a steam turbine by wet steam (steam with condensed water droplets in it) you would know what I mean.

If the system can atomize the droplets sufficiently (and the induction pipe is long enough for sufficient vaporization), then they would follow the air flow and not damage the compressor.

Long term use would show if any damage is actually happening. There would be pitting (tiny little indentations) on impeller's blades - that's what happens in a turbine.

For best results, I would go with a system with a progressive controller. It allows you to control the amount of delivery to exactly suit the requirements of your engine - you could even start delivery off idle all the way to maximum RPM!

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

[dvldoc]

If your going to keep the top mount IC mount your nozzle after the intercooler because it will just heat the air back up. Or do what we did and do a dual nozzle set up.

The M1 nozzle produces around a 30 micron mist, People who were at the demo can tell you it is very fine. It will not harm your blades on the turbo. You air filter cannot filter out particles that small so it it getting hit with bigger pieces of dirt and sand all the time.

The pre-turbo injection give you huge torque gains at activation due to making the turbo more effiecient. Mounting the nozzle after the turbo will still give you good gains and your turbo will spool up faster just not as quick. But overall performance will be close. The pre turbo works so well because your turbos are how do you say. (FREAKING TINY)

Mix is also a big factor in how much power you want to make. In testing the system always start out low like 30% then work your way up.

The top mount should be scrapped on pretty much all these vehicles, It simple does not work in this climate. 15 minutes in traffic it is rendered useless. You also get a pressure loss through the intercooler, Bypassing it will give you some free boost. But it hurts nothing to leave it on.

You will get more than enough cooling with the alcohol injection. We could touch the intake manifold on the dyno and it was nice and cold on the starex.

Regardless of where you mount the nozzle you can feel the system come on, you will hear the engine pitch change immediatly and it will rev much faster than it ever did before. And on the highway you will have some great passing power to overtake buses and trucks.
At least you finally have product that does what it says for power, emissions and fuel savings.

The Mazda MPV install is almost done and he will have pics and results up soon. He sent some pics already, pretty clean install.

The Progressive kits give you wide control over the sytstem you can vary the flow of the pump over your set ranges and start at a much lower boost level but spray at a lower psi. We do have new controllers in the works so in 2 to 3 months they will look totaly different.

[4JGtootsie]

ok, got your point sir. so i guess the best point is still after the ic or just before the intake. am i right? anyway i would also like to hear from dvldoc and the starex owner where they thought the nozzles were placed best. did they use two different points? it was also said that they placed it pre turbo since boost was lost when placed near the intake. what do you guys think suits best the starex?[/QUOTE]

Studying the location of the IC with reference to the turbo, intake and exhaust manifold of a starex. The IC design is not a straight flow but a U turn, you may loose momentum.I think Doc thought of loosing the IC to make a straight flow. We did that starex in Clark and I saw the induction system. The intake and exhaust ports are in the same bank so a U turn is inevitable.

[dvldoc]

Starex with IC bypassed you waist about a meter of tubing with the IC and since it actually is not working as designed in the Philippine climate it's not a bad ideal to bypass it.

The 2001 Starex turbo was to slow to spool so it needed the pre-turbo nozzle it made a huge differnece in performance at 1500rpms even with pure water you can see by the dyno the pre-turbo nozzle gave the turbo a instant spool to almost max boost without having to wait to a higher rpm. Now injecting post turbo will give you a faster spool as well be you might see it a few hundred RPM's later and it won't be as fast. But you will still get the overall power in the top end.

I would put a DO1 nozzle pre-turbo in just about everything down there due to the size of the turbos but it's not needed. Hopefully Sir Charles will get on here (Starex owner) and let you know how much different the vehicle is now.

[dvldoc]

More notes on the starex, he PM'd me yesterday that he tried just the DO1 (63ml/minute) nozzle pre-turbo and still gets the big boost right at activation and is happy with the power it's making.

I gave him the fitting to allow him to run dual nozzle and to go back to a single nozzle for testing. 1 week of driving still no refill yet.

[shanejc]

we used two different points during the dyno, m1 on the pre-turbo & m2
right before the intake manifold. again thank you sir Mon "4jgtootsie" for the methanol you gave me during the clark demo, we have enough juice to satisfy the dyno runs w/ WMI.
Currently im using the m1 pre-turbo only, 30% methanol and activation range is around 1700-1800rpm. With this setting im able to cool down the system from time to time esp. on city driving which before, without wmi, you can feel the effect of the heat soaked engine from the way it drags during & after a stop and go traffic. With the wmi, as what Duskylim mentioned - this would provide cooled air to the turbo, delivering more air mass even at the same speed, thus, providing extra power throughout its activation.
im more into city driving that's why my wm consumption is that small for the past week but i already refilled with wm, maybe DOC got confused cause i told him that i haven't refilled yet which Im talking of my fuel consumption w/ the wmi system and i haven't monitored it yet until my next fuel refill.
i'l be posting from time to time both my wm and fuel consumption for comparison.

[raquino]

thank you for yhe replies regarding the starex thing. i was really concerned about the turbo getting corroded with the pre turbo nozzle but with all your explanations i'm quite convinced. faster spooling woul be really nice minimizing turbo lag. i guess the dual nozzle set-up would be nice with bypassing the turbo intercooler. this would be very helpful in city traffic. if and when i get enough savings i would like the 2 nozzle setup and have a progressive controller to ease things up instead of a manual control. maybe on hiways i will try everything plus the ic cmbined coz i believe the ic works in hiways compared to my older starex with only a turbo. trial and error perhaps. thanks for the inputs. keep on coming ii'm almost a hundred percent convinced.