New Montero Sport 4x4, Fortuner 3.0 4x4 or Sta. Fe 4x4.

[FBSS]

Honestly Sir FBSS, you wouldn't know the facts unless you own one isn't it? We know what we are saying because we own one. You can't judge a car just by test driving it once or twice. You have to own it to see its power and potential.

Madam, I'm definitely sure of what I'm saying. It's not just a simple test drive, we also swap cars to know the difference in performance. We are doing this frequently and it became part of our hobby already.


[/quote]Of course almost all top manufacturers of cars will say that they have sold more than what they were expecting...Why? It's because of competition in the market. [/quote]

I didn't get that info from a car manufacturer but from Commercial Vehicle and SUV sales from January to April 2008. Also try to find Cumulative Sales report for 2007...

[LadyRider]

Madam, I'm definitely sure of what I'm saying. It's not just a simple test drive, we also swap cars to know the difference in performance. We are doing this frequently and it became part of our hobby already.

I didn't get that info from a car manufacturer but from Commercial Vehicle and SUV sales from January to April 2008. Also try to find Cumulative Sales report for 2007...

The bottom line is.... We can't please everybody... And again, what may be best for you may not be for others and vise versa.

I just hope we get our money's worth with the cars or SUV's that we've been buying.

But so far I am very very satisfied with my Hyundai Sta. Fe and Veracruz... My VC is already 1 year old and my Sta. Fe is about 10 months old.

Maybe I graduated from owning Mitsubishi's, Toyota's and Honda's already that is why am not that impressed with their new cars and SUV's anymore.

Just my two cents.

[Gen. Miting]

if you are definitely sure of what you're saying, then maybe it's ok to assume also that you are swapping cars with a New Montero owner. with less than two weeks after its launching, your gathered data on the advantages of the Montero over the Santa Fe, Fortuner or any other diesel vehicles available is very impressive.

and to think, hindi pa sayo yan. nakikiswap ka lang unlike others here who have owned the other cars in question for months if not years na.

pasensya ka na, but I know BS when I read one. i have to agree with Ladyrider and Niky.

[FBSS]

if you are definitely sure of what you're saying, then maybe it's ok to assume also that you are swapping cars with a New Montero owner. with less than two weeks after its launching, your gathered data on the advantages of the Montero over the Santa Fe, Fortuner or any other diesel vehicles available is very impressive.

and to think, hindi pa sayo yan. nakikiswap ka lang unlike others here who have owned the other cars in question for months if not years na.

pasensya ka na, but I know BS when I read one. i have to agree with Ladyrider and Niky.

No problem pre. Everybody is entitled with their own opinions. I’m just sick and tired of these long arguments which are now going in circles. Like what I’ve said in my first message, I only did test drive the new Montero and my first impression was positive. Please try to back read my post before commenting. TY and good night. Time to sleep.

[FBSS]

The bottom line is.... We can't please everybody... And again, what may be best for you may not be for others and vise versa.

Yes, perhaps you're right...

[Horsepower]

bloody double post!

[Horsepower]

Niky, a salesman??!! hahaha. That has got to be the funniest accusation I've heard about Niky.

FBSS, if you must know, Niky is a US Citizen who owns a University and a bunch of other businesses here. He definitely doesn't need to work as an agent to sell vehicles - although he'll certainly do a good job given his technical expertise.

He's a fellow isko from UP Diliman, if I recall correctly. I think that pretty much answers your question if he can read properly.

For a newbie, you're far too condescending. It wouldn't surprise me to find you banned from this site in a few days.

It doesn't hurt to discuss things without namecalling and insults.

Remember, those who scream are often the one with invalid points.

[niky]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]MY ANSWER:
Nicky, so you’re correct that my experiences are my experiences then why react? Ehem! Etc... in your previous post. Why do I need to straighten my facts when I just mentioned that it was based on my experiences and opinions? Do you think it’s just okay to the person who will receive your message? Too much pride man... Too much pride. Always remember that there’s always someone greater than you. You’re not that good as what you’re thinking. There are plenty of loopholes in your messages but I will not bother pointing them out anymore since it’s out of the topic and just a waste of time.

Go ahead and point them out. My message is consistent. And it's this: McPherson struts versus Double wishbones have no direct affect on the ride of a vehicle. It's all in suspension tuning. Why don't you go down to autoindustriya.com and ask Kookie Ramirez and the racers... or some other person who's obviously more intelligent than me and they'll give you the same answer. Of course, most of us agree that double-wishbones are superior from a performance standpoint, but they do not hold any advantage in terms of suspension suppleness.

MY ANSWER:
Well sorry I don’t really know you... I don’t see any problem with that since you’re not a Hollywood Star, a celebrity or any other popular entities out there. So I’m sorry man you’re just a simple guy in the neighbourhood trying to prove things in his own way.

But let me guess, are you a Sales Agent who’s trying to put extra flavour in their products just to look, feel and taste good?

So, am I a simple guy or a sales agent? While I've been responsible for the sale of a number of vehicles to buyers who've asked advice, I haven't gotten a single red cent in terms of commission from anyone. All I get is free test-drive vehicles once or twice a month and a huge gasoline/diesel bill to show for those test-drives. I should start charging.

MY ANSWER:
Man, do you really know how to read? Or do you have an English tutor beside you while reading a message?... In my message, I didn’t write (My additional info on Fort and Eve) so I thought you will understand that instantly assuming you’re a person with high IQ.

You accused me of copy-pasting, so I'm showing you where you've copy-pasted yourself. I don't need an English tutor to babysit me. I can read english just fine, thank you. ;)

MY ANSWER:
[SIZE=2]Extra weight? I thought you already tried driving an Isuzu. i.e. like the crosswind, the more heavy the load is, the more stable is the ride. It’s exactly the opposite way around. [/SIZE]

Look at it this way. A Crosswind carrying a heavy load is more settled because the load is more evenly matched to the stiffness of the suspension. Unloaded, it's very bouncy. The new Starex, being bigger and heavier than before, likely uses very stiff springs to take the extra weight, and to take the weight of a full load of passengers. Thus, unladen, or with few passengers, it will feel very stiff over the bumps.

Newer cars are heavier... which means bad things for handling and stability. Manufacturers can adapt to this in different ways. Some use extra-stiff anti-roll bars to prevent body roll in corners. Others use stiffer dampers. Others use much stiffer springs to support the weight. Many do a combination of two or three of the above.

The Crosswind's a good case in point. Every generation, it gets heavier, more loaded with extras and comes with a new tagline for its suspension... I believe "flex-ride" is the current Isuzu buzzword. But, sadly, the newest Crosswinds don't ride anywhere near as well as the first one... which doesn't ride as well as the Highlander, which was lighter, with smaller wheels and tires. Couldn't take a heavy load worth crud, though... (we've broken a few wheelhub studs) ...which is why Isuzu upgraded to bigger wheel hubs... and bigger wheels... and stiffer springs...

[SIZE=2]Extra stiffness? So what’s the probable cause of being stiff? One more question, do you know what’s the use of this formula? Can you explain it to me?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][SIZE=5]Ss = K (8FDm/3.1416 (Dw3))[/SIZE] ???[/SIZE]

Nope. Not a clue. I never said I was an engineer ...but it's got Pi in it, so it's probably delicious.

Of course, you probably want an equation for spring stiffness and/or fluid dynamics in regards to the shock absorbers.

[SIZE=2]Bigger wheels and tires can affect bounciness? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]205/70 R 15 – For the old Starex[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]215/70 R 16 –For the new Starex[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Man with little difference as stated above, they are almost negligible which can’t affect bounciness. I will only agree you on the bounciness thing if we put size 20+ rims. Sorry man I strongly disagree with you on this one...[/SIZE]

205/70R15 versus 215/70R16. Okay, here, I will cheat a little and use a common online calculator http://miata.net/garage/tirecalc (because I haven't used my Excel tire-size calculator for so long and I'm too lazy to look for it)... the new Starex tires are nearly two inches taller than the old ones. That increase in diameter leads to a difference in weight (probably around 5 kgs or so). More weight leads to more wheel movement over bumps, which you need to compensate with stiffer shocks to prevent the wheels from bouncing like basketballs over ruts. Even just a one-inch difference produces noticeable effects in the way a vehicle rides. The tires are also part of the equation, but not knowing (or remembering), offhand, what tires are on the Starex, I can't say what effect they have.

[niky]

MY ANSWER:
If this is your evaluation/ opinion then I respect you on this. I will just leave this thing with our fellow Starex owners. I know there are many out there who can relate to this since there are too many Starex owners who are still enjoying their 3rd gen Starex rather than the 4th gen one. But I have to admit that Hyundai Vans are the best in the market today even if the new one is bouncy. (Sorry if out of the topic)

Granted. And I'll respect your opinion on the ride of the new Starex, which, it appears, others complain to be bouncy, also. Suspension comfort is quite subjective and can be affected by the speeds and type of roads one drives on. For high-speed long-distance use, a stiffer (but not too stiff) set-up is best... but I'll admit the old Starex is relatively comfortable in traffic. And despite the floaty ride, I think the old Starex was pretty good. In fact, I recommended it to my father for purchase. But I still don't like riding in the back on long trips... makes me queasy.

I still prefer a double wishbone suspension which is fitted in the old starex since it rides better compared to the new one with Macpherson suspension set up.

But again, the difference in ride is all due to the shock and spring tuning rather than the suspension type. The only suspension type inherently inferior in terms of ride comfort is the beam-axle or rigid axle configuration, since single-wheeled bumps always lead to a deflection of the opposite wheel. Something which doesn't happen with independent suspensions (double-wish/multi-link/McPherson/etcetera)... and even then, proper tuning can make it comfortable in 90% of the road situations you're bound to see.

Common Man is this the best you’ve got? I can only expect a mechanic to answer like this? Sorry man but I can’t help but to comment in this way. Your comments have no basis actually. For me they are all based on assumptions.

Any man with an understanding of Diesel Engines can find good and bad arguments for any type of engine. The greatest assurance of success lies not in the type of an engine, but in the details of design, materials, and workmanship. An engine should therefore be as conservatively rated in speed and Mean Effective Pressure as the purchaser afford to use. Crowding a high horsepower rating into a given engine lowers the cost per horsepower and shortens the life of the engine. Every step in the direction of simple design, if proved successful, is an advantage for the purchaser.

If you still don’t believe this, then I suggest that you go back and study the Power Plant Engineering in order for you to understand what I mean and also to have additional knowledge regarding Diesel Engines.

But then, I'm not a mechanic, I'm a hack and a tuner... and I'm certainly no Power Plant Engineer, and a car isn't a power plant. A shipboard diesel motor or a stationary powerplant motor can be run at a steady, fixed speed. There are no restrictions in terms of absolute displacement and no need to design for flexibility. You design for long-cycle operation at constant loads, and you tend to overbuild things so they stay in one piece.

Yes, the simpler the motor, the better... but that's on the assumption that any CRDi/D4D/DiD/TDCi motor is simple. And they're not. All CRDis have high pressure fuel systems and complex electronic controls, and are meant to work over a larger rev range than a large, stationary motor.

Generally, for durability, yes, a big, unstressed motor would be great, but if we all went around driving 6 liter pre-combustion turbodiesels (such as found in US pickups), we'd all be getting dismal fuel economy. That's why the trend is (whether we like it or not) towards smaller and smaller engine displacements.

And the assumption that one CRDi is more durable than another because it's bigger and under-stressed due to the lower specific power ignores the line in your quote that says: "The greatest assurance of success lies not in the type of an engine, but in the details of design, materials, and workmanship." Which means that it's important that an engine is built properly. Otherwise, why would the fuel efficient Isuzu 4JX1 have so many problems? It's not as highly-stressed as some motors.

A motor that's designed to survive high revolutions and power outputs can last longer at low revolutions than an engine not designed so.... it will often be better balanced, with a stronger valvetrain and with stronger bearings and a better lubrication system. Obviously, if you have to rev it to make power and you rev it all the time, it will wear out quicker, but that's up to the end user and the style of use. Typically, though, high-revving engines don't make much low-end torque, but since we're only talking about turbodiesels here, the turbocharger itself can provide the torque that a smaller engine is lacking.

And direct injection technology helps you build more powerful motors with less stress on the motor itself. It promotes better combustion, cooler running and allows you to increase the turbo boost safely. It allows you to theoretically make more power at the same reliability as before.

But that's theoretically... and yes, it opens up a whole new kettle of problems, thanks mostly to the fact that the high pressure rail and injectors require high quality fuel, and our local fuel is crud. Too big a risk of water contamination, too many impurities. But this is a problem with the fuel system per se, and not with the engine itself or the engine's size. All direct injection diesels are vulnerable to this.

The only way to assure simplicity in design on a brand-new motor? Buy a Crosswind. OHV, timing gears (no chain or belt to snap), pre-combustion injection... the fact that it makes almost no power (we've just dyno'd mine... 48 horsepower at the wheels... whee!) and smokes a lot are the price you pay for the durability and relative economy... (8-10 mixed... 12 highway... AT). Everything else is complicated.

Well I guess it’s time to end this argument since it’s going nowhere. I’ll just continue enjoying Tsikot. Continue reading and learning new things about new rides etc...

For me Tsikot is great and very useful so I hope that only premium info should be fed in Threads in order to give our fellow Tsikoters an accurate data on every new and old vehicles in the market. But I would also like suggest to test drive the vehicle yourselves in order to know and feel the ride first hand...

To the thread starter, sorry if I populate this Thread but I guess it worth to justify what you experienced and believed in. Cheers to you man! Montero Sport is darn beautiful! hehehe
[/FONT][/COLOR]

I'll agree on that.

[motegi]

Cool down everybody. Let's get back to the original topic. Peace to all.