Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[OyiL]

PhUV 3D model concept 2 view 1

[OyiL]

PhUV 3D model 2 view 2
.....i took it back...suspense

[drey]

wow... nice 3D model you got there...

[architect]

*drey,

you got pm

[hein]

FMC ang assembler ng Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, Fiat dati. to standards set by each brand. bad ba yun? if yuo just "saw" their products, e di visual test lang yung basehan mo..standard mo pa ang ginamit mo

Assembler is way different from manufacturer. "Screw-driver" operations nga ang nickname ng mga ito.

Its takes a way, way, LOT more to design and make a car entirely from the ground up.

At 350T, the PhUV will look like a 1st gen AUV (e.g. old box-type Revo) that we see running around today. It will have generic headlights/grill and off-the-shelf dashboard and interiors. The body will have mostly flat surfaces. The vehicle will be powered by an Isuzu diesel engine. Don't expect a breakthrough product.

[dprox]

REMINDER TO EVERYONE: This "PhUV Prototype" thread was started to allow Filipino auto design aficionados to opensource-design the Philippine Utility Vehicle -- not to debate its worthiness.

To hein: Please respect the purpose of this thread. Surely without intending to, you have sparked a controversy that is irrelevant to the topic, and the debate has pushed you to criticize negatively. I urge you to either contribute to the effort OR start another thread to debate your pet issues. In case you are based overseas, may I also suggest that you visit the Philippines this summer and get some first hand knowledge of the native auto industry.

To safeorigin, niky, OyiL, and contributors to this PhUV thread: Please do not get derailed by irrelevant debates. Time is precious, so let's focus on design inputs. It's still OK to editorialize, ramble and rant from time to time, as long as our comments push the project, rather than retard it.

To prospective contributors: Please be reminded of securing copyrights to the drawings you post. Any original ideas or original designs you post are your intellectual property, but pirates lurk the web, so PM us the terms by which we should keep them in circulation.

(Industrial) Peace lang. :harp1:

[hein]

Surely without intending to, you have sparked a controversy that is irrelevant to the topic, and the debate has pushed you to criticize negatively. I urge you to either contribute to the effort OR start another thread to debate your pet issues. In case you are based overseas, may I also suggest that you visit the Philippines this summer and get some first hand knowledge of the native auto industry.

I am based here in Ayutthaya, Thailand and I work as a Cost Control Engineer at one of the major car manufacturers.

My posts here are certainly relevant to the topic. The cost targets of an automobile has a definite effect on the final outcome of the vehicle, including its esthetic design. As in the case of the PhUV, P350,000 has been determined as the price ceiling.

It seems that many of your posters like Oyil have contributed high-tech renderings of the PhUV without regard to the manufacturing capabilities of the local automotive companies and the costs involved with some of the components that need to be custom made for the PhUV. The truth is with cars, BEAUTY comes at a price.



To cite an example, the headlight assembly of the 2007 HONDA Civic above costs $187.12/unit. That is for an expected production run of 4,000,000 Civics x 2 = 8,000,000 headlights. To custom-manufacture the headlight assembly for the PhUV, which would have a rather small production run of about 50,000 headlights, would push the cost at least $450/unit x 2 or about P42,000. Therefore, the PhUV will have to use headlights lifted from other vehicles to save cost.

This would hold true for all the other component parts like the grill, taillights, windshields, dashboard, etc. (This is a big reason why ultra-low volume carmakers like Aston Martin and Lamborghini are so damn expensive.)

In the end, the PhUV will have to use mostly off-the-shelf parts and would not look different from the past AUV projects that have been undertaken.

Creating a world-class automobile is simply impossible given the economic constraints of the PhUV. No amount of nationalistic chest-thumping can change that. Neither Toyota nor GM can make a decent car at P350,000. And that is the situation the Philippine car project is in.

I only speak the TRUTH. And sometimes it can hurt.

[OyiL]

I am based here in Ayutthaya, Thailand and I work as a Cost Control Engineer at one of the major car manufacturers.

My posts here are certainly relevant to the topic. The cost targets of an automobile has a definite effect on the final outcome of the vehicle, including its esthetic design. As in the case of the PhUV, P350,000 has been determined as the price ceiling.

It seems that many of your posters like Oyil have contributed high-tech renderings of the PhUV without regard to the manufacturing capabilities of the local automotive companies and the costs involved with some of the components that need to be custom made for the PhUV. The truth is with cars, BEAUTY comes at a price.

To cite an example, the headlight assembly of the 2007 HONDA Civic above costs $187.12/unit. That is for an expected production run of 4,000,000 Civics x 2 = 8,000,000 headlights. To custom-manufacture the headlight assembly for the PhUV, which would have a rather small production run of about 50,000 headlights, would push the cost at least $450/unit x 2 or about P42,000. Therefore, the PhUV will have to use headlights lifted from other vehicles to save cost.

This would hold true for all the other component parts like the grill, taillights, windshields, dashboard, etc. (This is a big reason why ultra-low volume carmakers like Aston Martin and Lamborghini are so damn expensive.)

In the end, the PhUV will have to use mostly off-the-shelf parts and would not look different from the past AUV projects that have been undertaken.

Creating a world-class automobile is simply impossible given the economic constraints of the PhUV. No amount of nationalistic chest-thumping can change that. Neither Toyota nor GM can make a decent car at P350,000. And that is the situation the Philippine car project is in.

I only speak the TRUTH. And sometimes it can hurt.

you are right about the cost.
But who's expecting a sports car? are you? Our PhUV is not meant to compete with the big boys in terms of style. its supposed to be a utility vehicle. not for export.

yes the renders are hight tech(<-- thank you. just realized the big boys noticed, ha! that's one of the high tech parts of the tsikot-PhUV project).."some" of the sketches are dreams(--> have you thought of that?)...but we are aware of what can be done and what our local people is capable of.

since you are in the auto industry, it would be much better if you can help this project. rather than put it down, comment on the design and advise on where you think changes should be made.

you are working for a big boy and it seems that you are intersted. how did you get to know about this thread?

[wildthing]

This is OT.

I'd call the situation another CRAB MENTALITY of another pinoy working for a big boy company - I hope I am wrong Mr/Ms Hein.

Kasi if your intentions was to "HELP", you could have contributed more helpful info...Being a COST CONTROL ENGINEER of a auto company, you could easily point us to the right contact persons who supplies OEM parts to make this project a successful and a realistic dream. Unless of course you are just another "MAKAPILI" working for the big boys...then I would understand better your sentiments.

Hein hope you read ALL the post on this thread so you would have learned about the nature of this discussion.

You barely have less than 20 post on the Tsikot board (which have been around MORE than 4 years na in the net)...obviously you are a newbie and instead of making friends parang kabaligtaran yata.

[OyiL]

*dprox

i just noticed that you are a moderator now. ???????? na-promote ka din?

[dprox]

*dprox
i just noticed that you are a moderator now. ???????? na-promote ka din?

Yup. Kasalanan yun ni architect Sinabit lang ako sa EB
One of the spinoffs nung discussions with papa tsikot and jedi.
It's not really a promotion. Trabaho ito. Punishment.
Anyway, maisulong kahit konti ang larangan ng auto design sa Pinas. Kung di ko makaya, ikaw naman ha? Pamato lang ako. As far as I'm concerned RoundTable pa rin tayo -- walang kabisera.

[drey]

I get your point hein... But did you know that Filipinos natural ingenuity comes with beauty as well? Dont worry, even if im 17, I can think of the things needed to be done in a more resourceful way. Like the headlamps, ive been thinking about that as well especially the cost of production.

Maybe your boss is just afraid that Filipino Products like Jeepneys last more than the cars your manufacturer can produce. See, were not building sports car here, we have an aim and we have our goal. Instead of putting us down, you should try help us out.

If we fail on this dream to reality, my spirit will always be uplifted because of the knowledge ive acquired from the people who share the same hobby as mine. We should always be positive and may I suggest that "walang magsasabi ng bahala na". Lets put force and the best in every thing our hands can hold into.

*Hein - I hope that you would care to contribute, even if you stand against it, why not contribute some knowledge about cost - cutting and building cars. You might even cite some suggestions how to cut cost even if you think 350K wont be enough, its nice to know that you tried helping your pinoy brothers.

[donbuggy]

"Don't be afraid of opposition. Remember that a kite rises against - not with - the wind."

Back to the drawing board. In page 1 of this thread, OyiL wrote about interchangeablity of panels. Here is a drawing that applies that principle.

[OyiL]

"Don't be afraid of opposition. Remember that a kite rises against - not with - the wind."

Back to the drawing board. In page 1 of this thread, OyiL wrote about interchangeablity of panels. Here is a drawing that applies that principle.

i like that.

[dprox]

I am based here in Ayutthaya, Thailand and I work as a Cost Control Engineer at one of the major car manufacturers.
...
It seems that many of your posters like Oyil have contributed high-tech renderings of the PhUV without regard to the manufacturing capabilities of the local automotive companies and the costs involved with some of the components that need to be custom made for the PhUV. The truth is with cars, BEAUTY comes at a price.
To cite an example, the headlight assembly of the 2007 HONDA Civic ...
This would hold true for all the other component parts like the grill, taillights, windshields, dashboard, etc. (This is a big reason why ultra-low volume carmakers like Aston Martin and Lamborghini are so damn expensive.)
...
Creating a world-class automobile is simply impossible given the economic constraints of the PhUV. No amount of nationalistic chest-thumping can change that. Neither Toyota nor GM can make a decent car at P350,000. And that is the situation the Philippine car project is in.
I only speak the TRUTH. And sometimes it can hurt.

We are already aware and agree with everything you are saying. You have correctly noted the discrepancy between target retail and conventional production costs. But this thread allows the posting of drawings only because it's a standing policy to encourage tsikoteers to post creative design work -- constructive contributions, not negative criticisms.

I don't doubt your good faith and competence, but a clear expanation has emerged as to how your line of thinking is askew with this thread.

The reason you are basically pessimistic about PhUV is because you are looking at COST PROBLEMS common to conventional fabrication and marketing approaches.
The reason we are optimistic is because we are looking for DESIGN SOLUTIONS using unconventional approaches.

You can't avoid prejudging the outcome of the PhUV, since you are
* coming from a mainstream "major" auto company (aka here as "bigboys"),
* employing posh state-of-the-art design tools,
* utilizing high-cap automotive assembly line production systems, and
* supported by costly marketing and corporate structures,
the sum total of which we already know to be prohibitive.
In contrast, what our maverick group is exploring here are unconventional design and production paradigms which can squeeze more value per peso and still serve the PhUV purpose.

Kaya ang dating ng "truth" where you are coming from, parang industrial "slur" from where we stand. You're raising apples, while we're focused on coconuts.

BTW, Honda cars are probably the best engineered (with a precisely calculated obsolescence of five years) and are among the most exquisite in style. But those are not PhUVs.

Go and learn the wisdom of the words, "The best is the enemy of the good". And don't forget that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Some prefer the simple loveliness of a barrio lass to the sophisticated magnificence of an urban socialite. And lastly, "Inexpensive need not be cheap".

Aside from bringing yourself up to speed with the forums, our friendly challenge to you is to come down from your perch, study the Pinoy indigenous auto industry and take it as a given. Then perhaps you can begin to appreciate what this thread is about. You might even put your skills to good use and tell us something we don't already know -- and be relevant.

On second thought, don't! Because if you want to hang on to your current job, you'd be better off not helping us muna, lest you be reprimanded by your boss for industrial espionage. :shhh: When you don't have any conflicts of interest anymore, you will be most welcome to open a more detailed discussion on engineering economics and car mfg costs in the newly opened Tsikot forum on Auto Design and Research. BUT if the only way you aim to help is by parading ***y foreign cars while aborting Filipino greasy-hands entrepreneurship, then any one of us in this thread will gladly design a kite for you.

Please understand that Tsikot is pregnant with a Filipino "auto design baby", and in case you haven't noticed, I'm trying my best to save you from looking like a eugenic abortionist. OFWs are supposed to be heroes, not villains - aren't they?
Industrial Peace! :harp1:

[safeorigin]

"butandingMK2". refined ver. of the headlamps and side "fin" mirrors
note: "concept only".

anyways, your welcome to join in. the further you debate with us with costs only makes me draw cost effective designs. such as:


this one. it took me 3 days of brainstorming this concept. the idea is, less curves= less labor+less materials; thus, cheaper price. and come to think of it, it kinda looks like a lambo gallardo but only smaller and weighs between 750-800 kilos and equipped with 1.3 petrol rotary engine.

note: i'm still making concepts and not actual models.

and if our group has enough cash and equipment im also planning for a direct injection, intercooled twin turbo flat4 diesel equipped with twin "fork" valves. this is again a product of a pinoy afficionado's dream.


note: again, it's a concept. sorry, if the image is too large.

[niky]

We don't really need to spend a ton of money on switchgear and lights. The Pagani Zonda and the Morgan Aero are good examples of this... wherein they use lights from mass market vehicles to good effect. Many British "sports cars" use switchgear from mass-market vehicles to keep costs down, too.

It's a given that we will use lots of "borrowed" parts in this vehicle. All of the switchgear and instrumentation will probably come from the same manufacturer as makes the engine... preferably an Isuzu 4JA1 or 4JB1, or even a Mitsubishi 4D56.

As for lights, I'm imagining faired in round glass-lensed lights, in a common size... I think these fixtures will cost much less than the lighter and newer plastic ones, as well as proving more durable. They'll look cool, too, if we sink them into the body-work.

[safeorigin]

hmmm...

rounded headlamps...

what if we asked coca-cola bottlers to lend one of their plastic recycling plants to manufacture our lamp lenses? wierd huh?

it's an insane idea if you may.

hmmm...

what if we asked aluminum recycling plants to give us their refined products to manufacture aluminum alloy parts and chassis.

it's insane but another cost effective solution.

OR... what if we asked the government to support our program and give the jobless some jobs so we can have our workforce and push recycling plants to give us our reagents and massproduce PhVehicles?

[sigh] i'm only 16, and i dunno what i'm talking about.

[wildthing]

the gov't is the last group that would help us here...

we can try the ACEF loan instead kung ang programang ito ay formal na - and complete with financial documentations....ACEF loan is a non-collateral loan.

[architect]

AFAIK ACEF is for agricultural projects. Has it been revised to include exceptions or are there loopholes such as falling into the "marketing infrastructure" or "farm to market roads" categories?

Would appreciate a clarification. Thanks.