Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[architect]

Guys,

There will always be counterpoints and negative posts in a public forum such as this. While some may be frivolous and absurd, others may contain valid arguments. In debating these, regardless of the rationale (or the lack of it) let us try not to make it personal.

After all, the best rebuttal we can present is to succeed and produce an affordable, reliable prototype. So let us just keep our focus on our objective.

In the interim, if someone posts a valid counterpoint, then we do need to address the issue. If we fail to do so adequately, it would imply that our approach is indeed flawed.

*orly_andico
Your posts provide good insight. While you posted discouraging comments, you supported these with facts. More importantly, you provided some rather interesting alternative. Personally I am a believer of disruptive technology that bypasses established value chains or redefines the paradigm. Hopefully you can participate more as I think the group can benefit from your insights.

For now, let me address your concern re the aesthetic design - Pinoys are considered world-class in various design disciplines - from furniture to sculpture to computer graphics, just to cite a few. Inasmuch as there are a lot of very experienced designers in the core group, I would not be that concerned.

[Tigerbug]

.. kaya walang asenso.. tayo ay lahi ng mga OFW, DH, etc.. ang magsilbi para sa ibang bansa..

Parang di na ako proud maging ofw, feel ko parang pulubi o taong grasa na
lang masakit sya magsalita… Pero parang may “tama” rin sya doon sa
sinasabi nyang “taste” ng mga Pinoy pagdating sa sasakyan, alam nyo ba na
earlier sa ibang threads sinasabinan na fugly ang Tucson, New sportage pati
matrix tsaka yung mga European compact vans di talaga matangap-tangap
ng taste ng pinoy at iisa lang ang pumapasok sa isipan – funerarya pero sa
first world countries nagkalat ang mga ito. Mahirap din kasi pag limited ang
actual na nakikitang modelo ng sasakyan katulad sa atin kaya di mo din
masisisi.

Sa nakikita ko lang ang very admired ng mga pinoy ay mga pick up, vans lalo
na starex pero sobra mahal naman sa atin at kabaliktaran uli ito sa first world
countries na mas mura ito sa sedan at suv at ang main purpose nito ay
mostly for business use.

So in my opinion, pag jeep concept uli i-produce natin baka di rin ito
mag- click like what Orly said, kaya we have no other choice but to devise
a concept similar to starex or Toyota noah profile but I suggest an swb
version about the length of avanza pero mas malapad sya at syempre all
new look not copied. I know mas mahirap gawin ito kesa sa ladder framed
jeep figure.

[dprox]

So now I want to be completely off-tangent.
Put four hub motors on it (one per wheel). The Chinese make these in huge quantities for electric bikes. Put a generator and gasoline engine (a 10,000 peso Honda GX180 might work..) on it. And a golf cart battery for the times when you need lots of current e.g. off a traffic light.
This is a series hybrid, just like Ferdinand von Porsche's Elefant tank of World War II.
You can forget about a differential or propshaft. No transmission since motors have huge torque. Right there you have something disruptive. It allows you to throw the whole ladder frame rolling chassis constraint out the window.
I have no idea if this is practical though.

Hi Orly.

The idea IS very practical! In fact, it's brilliant and has actually been done. It's called the Articulated Wheel System (AWS). "Each wheel had its own electric drive, a DC series wound 0.25 hp motor capable of 10,000 rpm, attached to the wheel via an 80:1 harmonic drive, and a mechanical brake unit." That was 1971, Apollo 15, on the moon, 1/6 G -- the LRV, aka "Moon Buggy". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_rover)

I might have seen it in applied on earth, in a docu, perhaps Discovery Channel's "Future Cars", and maybe in connection with drive-by-wire propulsion systems. GM put out something like it in 2002, in its Hy-wire Concept Car, except that it took the form of independent control, rather than propulsion. Anyway, that's vgood out-of-the-box thinking.

It was actually a Filipino "surplus" mechanical engineer Eduardo San Juan (aka 'The Space Junkman') who invented the AWS, and ended up working as NASA's primary designer for the Lunar Rover.

His AWS prototype lorded it over the competition and was considered brilliant. "Each wheel appendage was mounted not underneath the vehicle, but was placed outside the body of the vehicle and each was motorized. Wheels could work independently of the others. It was designed to negotiate crater ingress and egress. The other vehicles did not make it into or out of the test crater." This is a MUST READ for all naysayers and crabby kababayans out there: http://inventors.about.com/od/filipi...rdoSanJuan.htm

Just like your seemingly OT 3wheeler concept, how can we not welcome your suggestion? However, for us to start from scratch on this is like reinventing AWS, requiring heavy funding. NASA started with a budget of $19M and had a 100% cost overrun.

Then again, maybe we can invite Ed San Juan to the PhUV team. Calling hitomi and Mapuans! Kaya niyo pa bang kontakin si Ed San Juan? Buhay pa yun! We'd like to invite him to tsikot! -- ie, kung papayag si "Uncle Dubya". Suntok tayo sa buwan - why not? :hysterical:

With or without San Juan, we could invent our own prototypes -- with a bit of R&D funding, why not? However, as I mentioned to hein, the best in the case of PhUV, is the enemy of the good. That may be the ideal, but not the practical starting point. The consensus here, I think, is that we commence conservatively, and go bold later.

Nobody said hein was wrong. The case against him was not so much about competence (aptitude) as condescension (attitude). Like, here's a bunch of tsikoteers getting their feet muddy just starting to do a good thing, and then, out of the blue, a newbie fence-sitter flaunting golden two-shoes (imported from Italy) barges in, disparaging us for having muddy feet and taunting us to junk the project altogether. Turns out he's working for some bigboy car mfr. Tsk tsk.

BTW, architect had already started the 3wheeler thread. Please feel free to dive in whenever ~ http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36533

You're OK.
dprox

[OyiL]

Orly,

you made me realize how powerful this forum is. One 3D render can cause a somehow fixed perception of the PhUV design. Just to let you know, we are looking at other alternatives.

PHP 350K....It does look affordable for many OFWs. But I know that buyers will also have to consider the purpose of their purchase. The PhUV have defined its own target market. A lot of people are interested, as can be seen in this thread. Heck, jedi wants one.

For the first PhUV, the ladder frame was considered as it has the benefits required for it. It is simple, sturdy and makes customization easy; whether turning a passenger wagon into a pickup truck or putting a custom body on it for special purposes. Body-on-frame construction is more practical for yearly model changes (since only the shell has to change). It also gives the vehicle the capability of towing. You cant do that on the Alto or a similarly-designed vehicle. Ladder frames should not be associated with inferiority, but capability. The only drawback is weight.

Your hybrid car suggestion is good. And who knows, it might creep into the project plan. And when it does.....would you care to be in the team so that it goes right? Its alright for you to voice out your thoughts, that's what we asked for anyway.

Salamat po! bow.

[eyshmechanic]

makasingit lang po!
i think the project is not yet in the stage of deciding if to continue or not. there is nothing to loose but everything to gain at this point. gumagana ang creativity of everybody so let it be.

if the concept would be finalized then of course the budget will come in then maybe that's time we will know what to do next.

so at this point of time let us all learn. unfortunately wala akong mai-contribute he he ngayon lang ako nagkaka-idea just reading this forums.

[dprox]

... so at this point of time let us all learn. unfortunately wala akong mai-contribute he he ngayon lang ako nagkaka-idea just reading this forums.

Tumpak, eyshmechanic! That is what this forum is all about. A place to learn from each other, to fill each others' gaps and to stimulate creativity. So what if no actual vehicle hits the road? This forum would have served as a place of encouragement and friendship among kindred spirits who have a common passion for auto design.
Some among us are actually crazy enough to want to take this thread to the next level. And why not? Let us not put that idea down. To take potshots at visionaries is the work of sorry emotional >*<&#%$#ses in need of professional help.
The Irish playright George Bernard Shaw wrote:
"Some people see things as they are and say why?
I dream things that never were and say, why not?"

[drey]

Hi Guys! Please contribute more practical ideas...

* DPROX,
Regarding sa AWS, I was reading about it yesterday. I hope this big guy still have passion in his country. I hope he will find out about this site and thread. Please do help fellow Mapuans.

Anyway, I am sketching an electric system right now, my thesis paper is about EV's and I have more ideas, mga classmates ko nga pala is starting to feel that im wierd, hehehe.


*Guys,

Lets do our best in opening the possibilities! My teacher once quoted kanina, "Since your passion is about cars, do not treat them as objects. Your work with cars must be filled with passion and dreams... Without passion, there is no spark and without cars your passion is useless." We all have the passion, that's why we are here on this thread.

* Tigerbug,
Dont feel that way, I am actually finding OFW's as heroes and I wrote an article about future OFW's meron nga lang disadvantage at the ending when you leave the country. But when you come back to the Philippines, always see to it that it is never too late to help the country.

* eyshmechanic,
I started with no contribution at all except about the safety features (read the past posts). I let my passion grow and now I am filled with ideas. Tell you what, Ive been reading a lot from 1pm-12pm about Cars, Cars & Cars... I still have my ideas since I was 8, I was shocked when some of them came out in production. Anyway, I still have more! Just continue dreaming, you will never know until you find that there's a solution.

[orly_andico]

Architect, DPROX,

I did some fact-checking last night after my post. Here's some information which I got.

1) www.goldenmotor.com makes electric bike hub motors, $95 each in small quantities. These are rated at 22 N-m maximum torque, 216 rpm, 700W power dissipation, 70% mechanical efficiency and weigh only 6 kg. So at maximum power, each hub motor puts out 0.66 hp at the wheels.

2) If you get four of these and put them on the 4 wheels, you can get an aggregate maximum torque of 88 N-m and power output of 2.63 hp. This sounds horrifically low but 88 N-m is nothing to sneeze at; niky's Lynx RS puts out 180 N-m (a bit over twice) but at 4000 rpm! with this scheme you get 88 N-m all the time. The stall torque I am sure is much, much higher although goldenmotor gives no figures.

3) From my old notes, I found that to propel a 2500-lb car at 45 mph (72 km/h) requires 7.2 kW of motive power. We only have 2.8 kW available from our four hub motors, so we either reduce the total weight (including cargo and passengers) to 970 lb (440 kg) or settle for a lower top speed.

More tellingly, the hub motor only runs at 216 rpm. If we put 22" motorcycle tires on it, we can only get a top speed of 22 km/h which is pretty pathetic. So hub motors won't cut it for a PhUV, but for a small 4-passenger town car, it might work.

22 km/h is still pathetic.

Here's another approach I thought of. You can get this motor:

www.enigmaindustries.com PMG 080 motor - $465, weight 7.5 lb

specs at 24V
Peak Power 3.95hp
Stall Current 505 A
Stall torque 2320 ozf-in (12.08 ft-lb)

This thing turns at 3600 rpm. If we put it on a conventional rear rigid-axle differential with a 4.8:1 final drive ratio, our stall torque becomes 58 ft-lb or 79 N-m. Again, nothing amazing but since you get that torque at zero RPM, it is drive-able.

Turning at 3600 rpm with a 4.8:1 final drive ratio means the road wheels turn at 750 rpm. Driving 13" tires gives a top speed of 47 km/h which is much more reasonable. Gross vehicle weight would be about 500 kg.

You would need a gasoline engine and generator of about 5kW rating to drive the above motor. You would also need a golf cart battery to handle the peak current surges. The Motolite GC8-165 weighs 65 lb. One would probably suffice. Unfortunately a Honda 2.5 kW generator already costs 35K pesos (retail). This can get a lot cheaper by going Chinese. Use a Honda GX180 engine (10K pesos) but a Chinese generator, so at least your engine is ultra-reliable.

But you see my point: if you're worried about the engine and drivetrain already costing >100K because you need a new engine, there are other ways to approach the problem. And a hybrid would be far more environmentally friendly.

[OyiL]

Orly,

Got questions, dont know how to calculate some stuff.

How much current would it draw from the power sources when starting from stop with a load at full capacity? We need to know this to determine the output we need from the batteries(I assume that current will be drawn from the batteries more during this operation) The golf cart batteries you mantioned are 8V 165Ah - which means if I have a power drain of 165A contnuously, it will take 1 hour to drain all stored energy. We need to know to be able to choose the right generator to use for charging the batteries at the right rate. pag kinulang, mauubusan tayo. Friction on moving parts will also reduce the usable power. kung meron sana dito mag-develop ng high-torque, hi max rpm, low current, cheap hub motor ganda sana.

[mike01]

well actually wala akong kotse.. di naman ako yung may ayaw sa gawang pinoy..gusto ko nga.. ang tinutukoy ko yung ibang pinoy.. na pag naka local ka na kotse e sigurado pagtatawanan ka

ganun ugali ng mga pinoy..kaya nga nagkalat ang mga sasakyan na nasa kanan ang manibela e.. kase madaming bumibili nun.. pati mga made in china na motorsiklo nagkalat din..pero pag nalaman na gawang pinoy e di bibilhin yun..

gusto ko ngang bilhin yung norkis legacy e..pero base sa mga nababasa ko parang wala silang tiwala dun..

[dprox]

well actually wala akong kotse.. di naman ako yung may ayaw sa gawang pinoy..gusto ko nga.. ang tinutukoy ko yung ibang pinoy.. na pag naka local ka na kotse e sigurado pagtatawanan ka
ganun ugali ng mga pinoy..kaya nga nagkalat ang mga sasakyan na nasa kanan ang manibela e.. kase madaming bumibili nun.. pati mga made in china na motorsiklo nagkalat din..pero pag nalaman na gawang pinoy e di bibilhin yun..
gusto ko ngang bilhin yung norkis legacy e..pero base sa mga nababasa ko parang wala silang tiwala dun..

Alam mo mike01, simple lang ang mga layunin ko sa buhay, to live before God, happily with my family, to work productively and contribute to society, to love a woman, raise kids, run a tight home, and by golly, to build a car.

If you haven't raised kids, you don't understand how to understand. (1) You can't expect toddlers to run the marathon against seasoned athletes. But in time and with the proper training, they can and will. (2) You don't raise them by :hit: battering them with discouraging words; kung parati mo silang pinu-putdown, they will end up with inferiority complexes, :blue: kaya dapat i-balance ang criticism at encouragement.

Norkis, Pasahero, and other native automakers are no longer toddlers, but nagbibinata pa lang sila compared to the bigboys. Kailangan pa rin ng suporta, kahit sa salita lang. At most, if we're going to criticize fledgeling filipino enterprises, let it be in the form of correction and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Lucky for bigboys, there were no bullies when they were starting out almost a century ago. Struggling native Filipino auto SMEs are less fortunate, but just you wait and see.

Pag naubos na yung mga kano, hapon at europeans dahil sa ageing populations nila, Filipinos will be taking over. And it will begin to happen in your lifetime.

[OyiL]

mike,

if you're planning to buy a car, yung manufactured in the philippines ha.

[LexTer]

nako sir mike. depende yan. tulad ko po. may buying office po kami dito sa antipolo. namimili kami ng gawang pinoy at binebenta namin sa europe. kung gawang pinoy at maganda why not. like marikina shoes, handicrafts natin, local ic's, at kung ano-ano pa. dapat lang maayos ang produkto. ako bumibili ako ng local shirts. basta maganda at kumportable isuot (ang gap sa baguio ginagawa, bench at penshoppe maganda din). bumibili din ako ng sapatos ng marikina. mas gusto ko yun kesa sa china made.

about sa china made na motor. kaya sya click kasi mura. at kaya ng pinoy. pero napansin mo ba na yung mahihilig talaga sa motor di rin kumuha non? kung meron man. mangilan-ngilan lang siguro. ngayon kung nasubukan na ng mga kakilala mo at palpak! aba e bat bibili ka pa.

now sir mike. about your "legacy". maraming nag comment kasi talaga namang maraming di bumilib. galing na nga mismo sa nagmayari talaga negative pa e. (ilan na din ang na drive ko nyan. medyo mahina talaga. di dahil sa makina. i had a charade before. 997cc lang po sya pero napakalakas humatak at napakatulin) and ito yung mga taong sanay na sa sasakyan. if you like it so much ok lang naman bilhin mo. pero humingi ka ng feedbacks e di sumagot kami. meron po akong maliit na shop dito sa antipolo. halos lahat ng klase ng sasakyan nakapag ayos na kami. marami na din ako namanehong sasakyan dito even sa ibang lugar. natural kung medyo sablay. sasabihin ng customers na di maganda yung brand na yun. pag ok naman e puring-puri nila.

i am sure pag ok tong PhUV na ito. patok to. atleast ito e kung baga e dumaan ng drawing board. di ito basta sinipat lang at nung mukhang pantay e sisigaw na "sige pare! spot mo na!".

at di ako or kami nahihiyang sumakay sa local or gawang pinoy. or should i say karamihan dito. even anak ko na nakagisnan na ang mga sasakyan e naisakay ko na ng jeep. service nya nga sa school e tamaraw na gawang pampanga. meron ba ditong taga pilipinas na di nakaranas sumakay ng jeep? pagnakasakay nga ako ng jeep at may nadaanang kakilala pakaway-kaway pa ako. hehehe. ayoko naman sumakay ng taxi (japan made cars) lagi at mahal. so praktikal pa din ang pinoy. ika nga ni lumen dapat wais.

by the way guys. nabasa ko pala sa inquirer tong forum na to. andun din yung SN ng iba. hehehe.

[hein]

Nobody said hein was wrong. The case against him was not so much about competence (aptitude) as condescension (attitude). Like, here's a bunch of tsikoteers getting their feet muddy just starting to do a good thing, and then, out of the blue, a newbie fence-sitter flaunting golden two-shoes (imported from Italy) barges in, disparaging us for having muddy feet and taunting us to junk the project altogether. Turns out he's working for some bigboy car mfr. Tsk tsk.

dprox, your IMAGINATION is running on overdrive. I never taunted the tsikoteers to junk the PhUV project (why don't you back-read a little?). I just wanted to inject a little REALITY CHECKING into this thread. It was just that some of your posters do not totally comprehend the complexities of automobile manufacturing.

Many of your suggested designs of oyil, for instance, are impractical costwise and beyond the coachbuilding capabilities of the local manufacturers. Therefore, they will remain as such- concept drawings.

Automobile manufacturing is a numbers game. And in my job, you learn to read and apply the math. It is easy to concoct great ideas such as a world-beating PhUV. It is in the IMPLEMENTATION where you will meet the greatest challenges. Getting your feet MUDDY? I assure you dprox, you haven't even left the starting line.

[OyiL]

HA!! SUCCESS!! there you go, that's what i call "in-the-bag".

this forum is definitely powerful!!

*hein
you can help with the reality checks. and you know what, you can also help the group source for parts....hmm maybe more. wadd'ya say to that?

[orly_andico]

Orly,

Got questions, dont know how to calculate some stuff.

How much current would it draw from the power sources when starting from stop with a load at full capacity? We need to know this to determine the output we need from the batteries(I assume that current will be drawn from the batteries more during this operation) The golf cart batteries you mantioned are 8V 165Ah - which means if I have a power drain of 165A contnuously, it will take 1 hour to drain all stored energy.

You're right, I forgot that part. The batteries are only 8V so you would need three of them to get 24V. That's over 180 pounds right there.

The full-current draw is the "stall current" or "locked rotor current," which for the Perm motor is 505 Amperes!!! luckily, this current will only be drawn for a few seconds at a time. Your regular starter motor draws over 100 Amperes while cranking your engine.

Unluckily, the stall torque of 79 N-m after gear-down through a differential is not that great. This thing will never start from a standstill with 20 people onboard like our local jeepneys. So I think to make a truly useful PhUV, you have to stick with the ladder-frame construction, 4JB1 engine, leaf springs on all corners.. jeepney technology.

Just please don't make it look like a jeepney.

The Avanza and Hi-Ace Grandia show that even a slab-sided vehicle can be made visually different.

Electric drive would be most useful for a small car, something the size of a Chery QQ or Chevy Spark.

[OyiL]

i agree orly..but theres more....

small electric cars can only be used in the city...you will need an airconditioning system or waiting in a traffic jam surrounded by big vehicles with hot engines wont be comfortable. that's additional weight. to offset that, we have to use light materials --- expensive.

baka may solution, there should be electric car lanes - walang traffic jam. that needs legislation. sino kaya dapat iboto natin ngayon?

[drey]

i agree orly..but theres more....

small electric cars can only be used in the city...you will need an airconditioning system or waiting in a traffic jam surrounded by big vehicles with hot engines wont be comfortable. that's additional weight. to offset that, we have to use light materials --- expensive.

baka may solution, there should be electric car lanes - walang traffic jam. that needs legislation. sino kaya dapat iboto natin ngayon?

hmmm.... the other day, me and safeorigin was talking about metals. We debated aluminum against steel. I guess aluminum has the advantage... Magkano nga ba talaga aluminum?

[OyiL]

hmmm.... the other day, me and safeorigin was talking about metals. We debated aluminum against steel. I guess aluminum has the advantage... Magkano nga ba talaga aluminum?

aluminum hollow tubes lang a alam ko kasi i made a lot of those antenna designs nung college.

di ba pwedeng plastik na lang? dami kasi nagkalat na plastik sa kalsada. if somebody can find a cheap process to turn all those into something usable for an elctric car. yayaman na yung mga nasa landfill. kung may magsasabatas ng electric car lane at kung may bibili ng electric car - ngek! chicken-and-egg situation.

now back to aluminum....sorry drey, dehins ko mala(<-alam)

[mike01]

siguro kesa siraan natin ng siraan yung norkis legacy why not just try to improve it?

kase based sa mga post dito tuwing may filipino vehicle na babanggitin sinisiraan na kesyo 'mabagal', 'underpowered', etc..

yan ang hirap kase sa mga pinoy imbes na magtulungan nagsisiraan pa.. e di tulungan nyo yung norkis kung ano maganda magagawa nila sa existing cars nila di ba? wag na tayo mag crab mentality..

maganda nya isama nyo yung mga engineers ng norkis at yung mga fabricator ng mga owner jeeps, hummer jeeps copy, at aircon jeepneys sa meeting at plano nyo.. para may think tank, wag yung kanya kanyang banat at siraan..