Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[OyiL]

im still waiting fo the launching of the phuv.i actually have a plan to buy a car and i want to see first the phuv.sana ay favorable ang expectation ko...and hopefully this would be my first brand new car.

what's your expectations? design input yan.

[OyiL]

Hi to all

Perhaps it will be good at this point to sum up the forum's progress and development. This might get us back on track, and hopefully provide a clear direction to achieving this forum's objective.

If the forum's objective is merely to discuss or brainstorm, then it should remain open to all forms of opinion. Extreme opinions have a way of falling by the wayside, so editing them (and it remains the moderator's prerog) may or may not contribute to the forum's perceived fairness. The best move forward is to discuss & contribute toward the objective.

There's always a better way of doing things. Let's build on our strengths.

Regards to all

OK! here goes.

Ladder frame with rear 2-stage leaf springs and solid axle is somehow the standard.
RWD.
Automatic transmission???
...
...
...
overall dimensions(h x w x l)???
passenger capacity???

[hein]

DPROX's nationalistic spiels about not giving his designs to large car companies would be off-topic too. To be honest, I did find his ideas that large car companies would be interested in the CHOK somewhat.. laughable.

You bet Orly, I had a good LAUGH too! So did my fellow engineers in the office.

[hein]

:nono: And don't get any ideas of submitting Chok to your bigboy bosses. Chok is MY son, hopefully the first of many sons and daughters (yup, cars have gender, too). Chok is not for sale or ransom to foreign automakers. Conceived in 2003, designed, and assembled in the Philippines by Filipinos, for Filipinos, the way Filipinos do (:cheers2, given Filipino circumstances. Fully patented and trademark registered.

dprox, if your CHOK car is so good, why couldn't you bring it to production. Its been 4 years already.

[orly_andico]

Actually, I have a pretty good idea why the CHOK prototype never made it into production. Because almost all Filipino industries lack capital. That's all there is to it.

I think it's pretty clear that the PhUV being discussed in this thread will not be a "world beater." So there's no need to grind that point in. It will be.. adequate. But for many people that's good enough. Whether it will be good enough to survive the market.. is another issue entirely.

I must say, the Toyota Avanza has many, many of the qualities desirable in a PhUV. So did its predecessor, the Tamaraw FX.

I think the most realistic way to look at the PhUV is that.. it is a jeepney. Although without jeepney sheet metal. I saw a bunch of jeepneys in a showroom along EDSA near Balintawak last Holy Week. They had price billboards on them, 200K each. Of course with a surplus engine. Don't the Chinese have their own versions of the 4D56? I believe the 4D56 is already Euro-1 or Euro-2. That would be a great improvement over the jeepney.

[orly_andico]

Here's another idea..

In World War II, the British built a plane called the Wooden Wonder, this was the fastest prop-powered plane of WWII. And it was made from plywood.

Hermann Goering, the Reichsmarschall and head of the German Luftwaffe, was quoted thus:

"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy.

The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that?"

The infamous East German Trabant car had a body made of paper laminate.

So why not make the body panels out of wood or paper? that would allow for more creativity and more curvy shapes. Without the expense of fiberglass.

[niky]

How about Bamboo laminate? There's a company experimenting with a bamboo laminate with properties similar to carbon fiber, but lower costs.

Este, you could do it as: fiberglass without the glass... bamboo fibers nalang.

[architect]

How about Bamboo laminate? There's a company experimenting with a bamboo laminate with properties similar to carbon fiber, but lower costs.

Este, you could do it as: fiberglass without the glass... bamboo fibers nalang.

That is very interesting. I also have come across some bamboo-based architectural products (floor panels, doors, etc.).

Bamboo is abundant locally and grows very fast, hence the raw material should be inexpensive. But I personally don't know though how cost-effective the lamination process will be or if the resultant laminates will suffice in terms of durability and strength.

Definitely we should look into this. Will talk to a friend who owns a fiberglass company.

[architect]

Actually, I have a pretty good idea why the CHOK prototype never made it into production. Because almost all Filipino industries lack capital. That's all there is to it.

Actually there is more to it. A lot of Filipinos have the "we are not good enough" attitude. This has been clearly expressed over and over in this thread alone. Even with an unlimited capital, anyone with that kind of attitude will never succeed in venturing beyond his or her comfort zone, which typically is working for a big company. After all, as a follower (instead of being a trailblazer or a pioneer) you will never have to contend with brickbats, insults, jokes or arrows at your back thrown by those too timid to tread ahead of you and instead chose to rationalize their timidness via such thinking.

I think it's pretty clear that the PhUV being discussed in this thread will not be a "world beater." So there's no need to grind that point in. It will be.. adequate. But for many people that's good enough.

Thanks for reiterating this point. That is what we have been saying all along. As to why some people never get the point is beyond me.

Whether it will be good enough to survive the market.. is another issue entirely.

Yes, whether it will be good enough to survive in the market is another issue entirely but an important issue nevertheless that we need to and will be addressing. As it is, at this point, we are not even sure we will reach the prototype production phase. But that has not stopped us from planning things through all the way to distribution to after-market servicing. After all, the whole exercise is paving the road for future generations. If for some reason we fail to reach the end of our objectives, hopefully others will continue our efforts.

I must say, the Toyota Avanza has many, many of the qualities desirable in a PhUV. So did its predecessor, the Tamaraw FX.

So do a lot of models out there that have qualilities desirable in a PhUV. And we are trying to pick out the pertinent ones and add them into our own design. After all, the benefit of starting from scratch is that we don't have to contend with legacy or excess baggage (even in terms of corporate structure or the distribution value chain) although admittedly we do have to work within the limitations of current available technology.

I think the most realistic way to look at the PhUV is that.. it is a jeepney. Although without jeepney sheet metal. I saw a bunch of jeepneys in a showroom along EDSA near Balintawak last Holy Week. They had price billboards on them, 200K each. Of course with a surplus engine. Don't the Chinese have their own versions of the 4D56? I believe the 4D56 is already Euro-1 or Euro-2. That would be a great improvement over the jeepney.

The jeepney actually shares significant classical design lines with more luxurious models (Range Rover, FJ Cruiser, Wrangler, even the Hummer), having descended from the original Jeep. It is actually a testimony to the lack of any automotive design industry in the Philippines as to how the jeepney ended up with its current profile vis-a-vis other related models.

Yet Filipinos are considered to be world class in so many design/arts disciplines (furniture, computer graphics, animation, dance, singing, etc.). Thus it can be deemed an anomaly that we haven't yet made our mark in automotive design, whatever the circumstances may have been. It is this anomaly that our little project is trying to rectify.

[orly_andico]

Niky,

I stand corrected regarding the Trabant. The body panels are not made of paper, but of a resin called Duraplast, which is derived from cotton scrap.

So yes, bamboo would probably work fine. And yes, it grows very fast, fastest growing plant in the world (some varieties grow up to 1 meter per day). If cotton scrap will work, bamboo should work too -- and not even the "hard" bamboo, even the soft, low-growing varieties should be OK.

I must add -- Duraplast is much maligned but it turns out certain parts of the BMW X3 and X5 are made from Duraplast! so it's definitely an option.

Another thing about Duraplast which makes it desirable for cheap cars is that, it is moldable, unlike fiberglass which must be built up in layers.

[architect]

While Duraplast appears to be another viable option, I would prefer using bamboo laminates (assuming all things being equal) for the simple fact bamboo is indigenous to the Philippines. Unless of course if the raw materials used for producing Duraplast are also indigenous, then by all means, we should consider both.

[architect]

Interesting story re use of bamboo laminate.

http://starbulletin.com/96/04/03/business/story1.html

[orly_andico]

I would think bamboo fibers can be used in place of cotton scraps in Duraplast.

Those bamboo laminates being mentioned in the article look like they're manufactured ala carbon fiber -- by laying layer upon layer. The way Duraplast is described in the manufacture of the Trabant, it's just molded and pressed.

[hein]

I think the most REALISTIC way to look at the PhUV is that.. it is a jeepney. Although without jeepney sheet metal. I saw a bunch of jeepneys in a showroom along EDSA near Balintawak last Holy Week. They had price billboards on them, 200K each. Of course with a surplus engine.

That's what I have been saying since my first post. The PhUV will not be a breakthrough product. It will be an enhanced version of the previous AUV's made in the Philippines. With a lot of flat panels and generic off-the-shelf parts and an ISUZU engine.

I NEVER said that we shouldn't build this car. I just said not to expect too much from the first PhUV product. As Architect said above, we do have to work with the limitations of current available technology.

[romski123]

According to the articles I've read about the PhUV, 2 models will be launched. One from MVPMAP and one from FMC. Both will sport a chinese engine.

As for the Philippine Jeepney, I've read that very soon they will have a facelift as funds are being released by the government for their rehabilitation. DBP will be financing a re-engine and re-body program.

I just hope that with all these developments, the Philippine auto industry gets the boost it badly needs!

Cheers!

[varga]

from www.greencarcongress.com/
Mitsubishi Motors Develops Green Plastic: Bamboo-Fiber Reinforced Plant-Based Resin

[SIZE=2]17 February 2006[/SIZE]

Bamboo-fiber prototype
Mitsubishi Motors Corporation, with cooperation from the Aichi Industrial Technology Institute has developed an automotive interior material which uses a plant-based resin, polybutylene succinate (PBS), combined with bamboo fiber.

Parts made from the material will be used in the interior of a new-concept minicar, to be launched in Japan in fiscal 2007. Mitsubishi Motors has dubbed its independently developed plant-based resin technology, including this PBS-bamboo fiber resin, “Green Plastics.”
Mitsubishi Motors plans to substitute plant-based resins and quick-growing plant fibers for materials such as petroleum-based resins and wood hardboards used in car interiors. The use of these renewable plant-based resources, in principle, will add no CO2 to the atmosphere. Mitsubishi Motors began developing the materials in conjunction with the Aichi Industrial Technology Institute in 2004.

PBS, the main component of the material, is a plant-based resin composed mainly of succinic acid and 1,4-butanediol. The succinic acid for the material will be created through the fermentation of sugar extracted from sugar cane or corn.

The new material combines bamboo fiber with PBS in order to increase its rigidity. Bamboo grows to its full height in just a few years, compared with the tens of years required for traditional timber, and as such may be called a potentially sustainable resource. Bamboo is available and can be grown in a wide variety of areas including Japan, China, and Southeast Asia.

According to Mitsubishi’s tests, this PBS/bamboo-fiber prototype achieves an estimated 50% cut in lifecycle CO2 emissions over polypropylene, a widely used petroleum-based plastic. VOC (volatile organic compounds) levels are also reduced drastically over processed wood hardboards (roughly 85% in testing).

Other automakers, such as Mazda with its Ibuki concept, are also working with plant-based plastics for parts.

[varga]

from www.greencarcongress.com/


DaimlerChrysler: How Does a Global Corporation Tackle Sustainability?


DaimlerChrysler’s High-Fiber Diet. The amount of renewable raw materials used in DaimlerChrysler vehicles increases every year. The primary benefit, according to the DfE analysis, is the saving in energy needed—and thus greenhouse gases produced—to make a given part.

Many renewable parts projects have a social aspect as well. For example, the POEMA (Poverty and Environment in Amazonia) project in Brazil employs former subsistence farmers to produce Mercedes-Benz seat cushions out of normally discarded coconut fiber. Honda and Volkswagen have also approached POEMA for parts, and the POEMAtec factory now makes its prototype dies from resins that are sustainably harvested from the rainforest.

[SIZE=1]Workers in Brazil sort coconut husks to be used in seat cushion material for DaimlerChrysler products, as part of the POEMA (Poverty and Environment in Amazonia) program.[/SIZE]
DCX has reported that coconut fiber-based parts it uses cost about 5% less than the parts they have replaced. No great surprise there—coconut fibers have been used to make auto interior parts since the 1930s, and were phased out as petroleum-based products became cheaper.

On the island of Leyte in the Philippines, the Abaca Project has been producing natural abaca fibers to replace the use of fiberglass and plastic in A-Class models since 2004. Daimler Chrysler also helps to support the Abaca Processing Center at Leyte University to verify that the abaca fibers are being harvested sustainably. The charcoal filter that absorbs fuel evaporative emissions in the 2007 Mercedes S-Class is made from olive pits that have been processed into coke.

[varga]

excerpt from Special Report: Cars Made of Plants?
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fuelec...1/article.html

But Do They Perform?
Are automakers sacrificing anything to use biobased materials? As it turns out, biobased car parts typically work better than the parts they replace. For instance, Honda's engineering team found that the wood fiber-reinforced floor provided better dimensional stability than the other, more traditional materials being considered.

Likewise, Goodyear has found that its corn-infused tires have lower rolling resistance than traditional tires, so they provide better fuel economy. And DaimlerChrysler notes that plant fibers' ability to absorb large amounts of humidity makes them perfect for use in seat cushions, where they can increase occupant comfort.

According to BMW, it's possible to manufacture biobased composites that are as much as 40-percent lighter than equivalent injection-molded plastic parts. That's because natural fibers have high-tensile strength, durability and rigidity, plus they're easy to process and lighter in weight than glass fibers, all of which makes them excellent for reinforcing composites.

Using plant fibers in composites provides additional advantages in terms of product design flexibility, noise absorption, insulation, impact-resistance and even a reduced tendency for parts to splinter in a crash. Plus, weight reduction translates directly into better gas mileage.

[architect]

The use of indigenous plant materials such as coconuts and bamboo in the manufacture of car components (panels, flooring, seats, etc.) certainly is an attractive option since it is in line with the project's objectives. In addition, the use of natural material promotes environmental concern.

However, we need to know if there are any existing manufacturer producing such products at this time and if they are doing it at a cost-effective level relative to comparable products. Obviously it would not be economically feasible to set-up a manufacturing concern just to supply the PhUV project unless it can also cater to the market at large or the capital requirements for setting-up such is minimal.

*Varga,
Perhap you might have info re any local manufacturer who is already producing either bamboo or coconut-based components suitable for automotive application.

OT: Are you really that interested in the project as to be posting at 2 in the morning or did you just happen to have insomnia?

[varga]

hi architect

thanks for the post

i actually just arrived from batangas around the time of my posting. i'm still up, and 45 minutes away from an appointment. and, yes, i am quite a non-sleeper (i'm too old to be sleeping 6-8 hrs a day)

interest-wise . . . with realistic caution and a healthy dose of philosophical prudence, plus a sprinkling of faith.

i have been told of an engineer who's working plastics & abaca in albay (where else). i'll see what can learn about it . who knows if some car-crazy guy (or woman) from Tawi-Tawi has already built the ideal Filipino car prototype. geniuses usually work alone.

regards to all