Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[artnesmith]

Well, I don't know about your corner of the universe, but here we DO have shops with specialty tuning programs loaded into laptops that DO tuning for EFI cars utilizing hydrogen generators. Yes, they even tune cars with odd systems like HHO. The world I drive in does not only have turbo/supercharged/nitrous enhanced diesels running about. Here in the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS we see regularly propane, natural gas, bio fuel, alcohol (not the E85 - just to save whatever rude comment that was coming), hydrogen (liquefied) powered vehicles. We don't have nearly as many hydrogen powered vehicles as California which leads the country in that category having more hydrogen powered vehicles than the rest of the U.S. combined. Also, there are other experimental vehicles using liquefied hydrogen in small quantities to turn an injected water mist into steam in the combustion chamber. When I say these programs tune HHO, I mean to clear that up some. They actually have HHO specifications loaded in the program should one of those equipped vehicles show up. Dr. Spreadbury is the one in our group wanting to purchase one of these. He can provide information. I'll try and remember to ask him for this information next week when I see him again.

Yes, you are so smart to be part of such a great company that goes to the SEMA shows. My business is auto related and I've been one of the exhibitors at many car shows in the Houston area for years. But somehow I doubt you saw everything since I personally know there is a lot to see. But be advised, SEMA is one unique show and not totally representative of every auto related company out there. Some of us actually try to pick and choose our market and those SEMA shows don't do it for me. Too expensive for most cost conscious businesses. I leave that one to the guys looking for that specialty niche market which is custom show and go. The guys with the higher profit margin can have that show. The lubricants business is bare bones and competitive so I can't afford to dump tons of money for the meager profits I see. I do enjoy the show whenever time permits me to be a shopper.

I can't imagine why you get your panties in a bunch over some of us playing around with HHO? How does this wreck your life to the point where you act violated? Unlike you we plan to actually speak from experience and not conjecture having actual first hand knowledge. By the way, a relative working for ExxonMobil told me that ExxonMobil did evaluate these units. They do work, but are labor intensive, difficult to maintain and difficult to install. Once again your assertion that if they worked everyone would be out marketing them depends on the potential for profitability. This isn't a set of fancy stupid looking wheels worth more than most donor vehicles or some dopey gauze air filter performance bolt on system that leaves the motor oil full of sand, but easy to install provided you fork out the money. These are for thinkers and I'll be darned if I will let someone tell me I'm stupid when that person has no intention of actually testing that concept personally nor knows the first thing about anything removed from the main stream. Yes, I've read the information from the different state and federal government and consumer group evaluations of these units and saw the Myth Busters episode on this. All were incredibly poorly done with inferior research. Maybe one year ago I would have been too ignorant to pick up on that. Someone testing a Smacks or stainless plate unit sporting baking soda as the electrolyte will never get any respect from me no matter how much power and money they have. The idiots at Myth Busters took a torch to a running hydrogen unit and had a serious explosion. Lucky for the guys holding their contract they were not injured and went on to even more incredibly dumb maneuvers. I do enjoy the show however, but about 10% of the time I notice some details they miss or mistakes in fact they have made.

Nice looking diesel Trailblazer by the way. Is that for show or does it have a purpose aside from horsepower and competition? We've all seen those dyno readouts. Great horsepower numbers. How about mileage? That is the purpose most of us were discussing, right? Most of the turbo charged diesels here take horsepower readings from the rear wheels and many are filthy from hard work. I've seen rear wheel horsepower on some propane equipped, nitrous equipped and retuned diesels reach remarkable levels, in the 650 horsepower at the rear wheels range with computer retuning. The 4X4 pickups tend to have trouble with traction compared to dual wheel pickups at the drag strip to the point of even boiling the tires on all 4 wheels on take off, but can still turn quarter mile times in the 12 second range on an 8,000 pound vehicle. Yet that same pickup will be on the road hauling a load of cattle or bridge beams across Texas the very next day. Hard for a gasoline powered vehicle to be that versatile. I've been looking for a purchase of a diesel for use with HHO since the local guys with diesels equipped with HHO get much better mileage increases and don't need any major retune to accept HHO. My wife demands I sell one of my 12 cars first. She keeps me from running amuck with the bank account so I guess I'll comply. Of course, on the mileage readings on the diesels I'm going by the LED read out from the computer showing the mileage information while driving. I guess you'd say that information is also faulty? In a modern diesel pickup equipped with the LED mileage readout, the mileage numbers drop as you accelerate and increase as you go downhill. Turn on the HHO and the mileage goes up on a flat straight road. Everyone of the owners claim the mileage read out provided by the computer is right at the same as figures done computing gallons of fuel used in miles driven. These are very accurate, maybe more so than the pump despensing the gasoline?

I agree I see people on the Internet claiming 80 miles per gallon using HHO. I don't personally know anyone like this and doubt the validity of what I read most of the time. Also I see the methanol systems regularly here. Lots of late model Corvettes using them for horsepower enhancements. Clear to understand why this works. Not expensive either. Won't argue that point, but once again, all over the place and cheaper than installing nitrous oxide which can be destructive if done improperly. It didn't escape me that alcohol injection is your business. Could that be the reason for your hostility? I'm sure you and your coworkers/colleagues are having a good time responding to my posts in a colaborative effort.

The first thing anyone should do is make sure their car or truck is properly tuned, air filter is clean, tires properly inflated and select a synthetic motor oil that will give them increased mileage. In Europe that would be any lubricant labeled "synthetic" since the average European when polled defined "synthetic" as man made. However, in the U.S. the average consumer defines the word "synthetic" as meaning better. Since Group III petroleum is better, the loop hole to call petroleum "synthetic" exists here. Group III synthetics are basically the same as Group II petroleum lubricants except the sulfur is refined out. As of today only Mobil 1 is a true Group IV polyalfaolefin (PAO) of all the major oil companies. This is odd considering Mobil Oil developed the process for making Group III and still holds the patent on it. Yet they don't think it's as good as Group IV which is interesting. Aside from smaller lubricant companies like Amsoil and Redline, plus Mobil 1 of course, all other synthetics from major oil companies are not worth the money in my opinion being from petroleum based Group III if mileage and performance are important. Yes, this includes Castrol Syntec (not the European version) which first exploited this loophole. I don't know what oils are currently marketed in the Philippines, but I was shocked last time I was in Manila the oils tend to use the API specifications which are not as good as European ACEA specifications. Does any company market a synthetic motor oil of any kind in the Philippines? Just curious. This would help improve mileage and reduce pollution since these oils don't need to be drained as often.
This is a different article on mileage improvement techniques I adhere to:
http://reviews.ebay.com/Improving-fu...00000002355330

I don't agree with everything he says, but for the most part good information and should be the basis for fuel savings first before anything else controversial is applied including HHO.

There is a good article at E-Bay on the scam of mileage improvement devices, many sold on E-Bay:
http://reviews.ebay.com/Before-you-b...00000008457777

This is one point I bring up almost daily. Hard to justify spending 1,000 dollars to save 500 dollars. I have charts that allow anyone to evaluate the actual savings in gallons of fuel saved so they can see if the potential savings are worth the financial outlay. Here is a link to it in case it can help anyone understand savings of fuel in actual numbers:
http://www.bestfuelmileage.com/hydro...eage_chart.htm

Sorry for rambling on. I can type as fast as I can talk which makes me go overboard! Didn't have time to proof read so pardon any errors I may have made. Most of the information I posted in the links above are for others reading this information that may find it helpful. Have a great day everyone!

[artnesmith]

A glitch in the system gave a double post of the same information. Just deleted the extra post. Hope everyone has a great and prosperous day.

[dvldoc]

For one the trailblazer is gas not diesel,

Second We on this thread have ask for you guys to provide even on shread of evidence about your systems working, Have ask for a link to your site, a pic of your kits, dyno's, emissions, OBD-2 proof, hey lets see this supposed tuning place, Or better yet how about the shops name that tunes for HHO how hard is that to provide?

The reason I get on the HHO crowd is there all talk with no proof, what other product is on the market like this. 99% of all sites with HHO have nothing but a slew of lies, and false claims.

The reason I post the dynos is to prove a point which seems to esape you, even making a engine 50% to 60% more effieicnent you still will not impact fuel economy more than around 15%, To save 40% 30% in fuel economy on a modern vehicle is basically impossible because you cannot pull enough fuel throught the factory computer to run the car correctly. I could remove 30% of the fuel trims from our Trailblazer and hook up your claimed groups kits up including your and the engine would just go in limp home mode because it does not produce enough of anything to add to combustion.

Once again not addressed about the amount of hydrogen your producing per cylinder, per revolution, vs air and fuel in the combustion chamber during the time of ignition. That's the whole point correct to effect combustion!

There is a reason why all the major pushes of these kits has had cases filed against them because they are a scam.

[quote]a simple 2.0 liter engine running at 3000 rpm. That engine goes through 6000 liters of gaseous mixture a minute. And you are telling me that by adding 2 magic liters or 0.03333% of the mix that you will see drastic changes.? To put it simpler, these HHO generators don’t do what they claim they make about 1 liter of HHO per minute 2 liter max you only have a 12v electrical system on your car you can't change that fact.

If you have a 2 liter engine running at 3000 rpm that means you are chugging through 12,000 liters of air and fuel. How is 1/12,000 of that possibly going to change the results by 50-150%? It simply defies all logic. Hydrogen has great potential as a storage medium for energy but that is not what is going on with HHO. You would do better to use a tank of hydrogen with a regulator and PWM a solenoid based on load using a progressive controller to actually put a useable volume of hydrogen in the system.

This is my whole point! And my other point is when ask HHO guys always fall short on any proof or explanination how there tiny amount of hydrogen injected effects combustion.

The fact especially on OBD-2 cars is they system do not work flat out and the ECU is hard coded not to let you destroy your engine by removing large amounts of fuel, You can only trick so many sensors and the ones you guys spoof have only a small role in Injector pulse width modulation whichis what controls how much fuel is actually used based on load, rpm, MAF, MAP, TPS, O2's, IAT's, ect ect, and ect.



Like is ask on every single HHO thead on the internet, were's your proof it works? Can you even provide one pic of your set up, your friends, any test results, surely you guys are so proud of you earth saving devices you have taken a digital photo and done real testing. Please give the shops name that does tunning for HHO i'm sure everyone would like to know. Just to let you know our shop is in Oklahoma City so I will have it verified and actually call them. Now lets see you post that info.

Oh nevermind were talking about HHO your guys always tap dance around these simple request. Prove me wrong!

[artnesmith]

So it's another lean, mean gas slurping machine. Not impressed. A friend had an AMC 401 engine, extremely rare even here in the U.S., that cranked out 830 horsepower at the crankshaft at 8,500 RPM. Same engine after nitrous oxide crossed 1,000 horsepower. For this little city I live in, not special. I know of several big block Chevy's that pushed past the 1,000 horsepower limit at the crank. But this was a small block AMC engine. That is impressive by anyone's standards.

dvldoc, just because you say it's so, doesn't make it so (your words). Conversation between us are full of insults and you're posting biased and inaccurate information. You've never tried to disprove your argument through actual experimentation as I did. I built my first cell to prove to a retired physicist that this would not work. I proved the opposite. You give it a try and I'll pay attention to what you have to share. Dialog is over until you have something pleasant or constructive to add.

Now back to the purpose, hopefully, of this thread. I have a problem some of you guys experimenting with HHO may be able to help me with. I realize freezing is not a problem in the Philippines, but despite our moderate winters here in East Texas, it does freeze occasionally for hours at a time. Last year I was using sodium hydroxide, very weak, as the electrolyte. Despite the disadvantages of sodium hydroxide, it does have a natural antifreeze effect. I tested one liter at 0 degrees for 9 hours and it barely started to freeze. More than good enough for East Texas. However, I don't want to use sodium hydroxide any more for fear of corrosion to engine parts. I've been told to use small amounts of propylene glycol, like in RV potable water system antifreeze,mixed with my electrolyte. Being safe it should allow for freeze protection with little ill effects. But last year I had to drain the bubbler every night during temperatures below freezing. Adding propylene glycol to the bubbler will certainly send trace amounts to the intake and therefore wind up in the engine oil. This would cause the oil analysis lab to panic thinking there was some mechanical problem. Instead I was told to use the windshield washer fluid with ethanol used as a antifreeze. The up side to this is the ethanol would further increase mileage while filtering the HHO passing through it. So, I've been told this is harmless to the engine and could be used year round due to extra mileage benefits. Has anyone ever tried this? It seems to me this would be too volatile and need to be refilled/cleaned more often. Any advice would be most appreciated. I do plan to ask this of many other HHO guys to get feedback there also.

[dvldoc]

My info is not bias or incorrect, please state with numbers how anything I said is wrong.

As alway you guys tap dance around any questions ask of you why is that?? Why can you guys not come up with any proof??

Can you provide even this simple information?

Can you even provide one pic of your set up, your friends, any test results, surely you guys are so proud of you earth saving devices you have taken a digital photo and done real testing. Please give the shops name that does tunning for HHO i'm sure everyone would like to know. Just to let you know our shop is in Oklahoma City so I will have it verified and actually call them. Now lets see you post that info.

You claim you have shops that you know of that tune for HHO, laughable in itself that any legitimate tuner would waste his time with it, getting past that give the name of 1 single shop that does this in the whole state of Texas? We deal with a lot of tuners not just in the US but in countries all over the world and I cannot name 1 that even waste their time with it.

Once again provide some facts!

Please prove this wrong.

If you have a 2 liter engine running at 3000 rpm that means you are chugging through 12,000 liters of air and fuel. How is 1/12,000 of that possibly going to change the results by 50-150%? It simply defies all logic. Hydrogen has great potential as a storage medium for energy but that is not what is going on with HHO. You would do better to use a tank of hydrogen with a regulator and PWM a solenoid based on load using a progressive controller to actually put a useable volume of hydrogen in the system.

Prove this wrong with facts.

The fact especially on OBD-2 cars is they system do not work flat out and the ECU is hard coded not to let you destroy your engine by removing large amounts of fuel, You can only trick so many sensors and the ones you guys spoof have only a small role in Injector pulse width modulation whichis what controls how much fuel is actually used based on load, rpm, MAF, MAP, TPS, O2's, IAT's, ect ect, and ect.

Pleae explain how you can safely remove enough fuel to run the vehicle without a dangerous lean condition to yield even a 20% increase in mpg with 2 liters per minute comming from your bubbler? And not induce detionation.

How many of your club even have a AF/Ratio monitor or wideband set up to monitor that? All this stuff is easily logged and can posted. Can any HHO'er show with a flip of a switch the changes to the AF ratio with the system on vs off, with or without the MAF/MAP, O2 spoof, the answer is no. This can also easily be done on a dyno, a smart person would do this if they did not want to cause engine damage but yet none can be found doing this with the bubblers. Why is that?

Is everyone supposed to believe in all these years nobody has done the testing? When your average 18yr import tuner has these tools readily at hand.

See how easy it is, This is my beef with the scam nobody no matter how much you ask for it can provide a bit of proof besides a bunch of copy and paste junk from the net. But real testing forget about it.







These shops you claim to do this tuning would have this info, Have you ever logged Injector pulse width, or duty cycle to see how much fuel is actually being used? It's so simple yet not one HHO person can show a simple system system difference why because there is non on OBD-2 cars.

Here's the stuff you need to look at to do real fuel economy testing and if your product works. If you guys were so dead serious you would be doing this.



I have yet to find a HHO guy that even knows what a fuel map is.



If your going to have a argument you need to have some facts to back it up.

We'll all be waiting for the requested information. Just like on every HHO post out there.

I'm also a ASE Certified Master Mechanic, so I think I know a little bit about how cars actually work.

HHO was started out as one thing, and that's as a scam to make money water4gas was the first and then the rest just followed.

I guess the fact the Federal Trade Commision is seeking to ban all advertisment of these kits is just a conspiracy led by the oil companies not the fact that 1000's of consumers reported they did not work and could get no refunds. The fact two biggest companies of this being shut down by the FTC also means nothing to the die hards.

FTC puts regulations on endorsements, testimonials

http://ftc.gov/opa/2009/10/endortest.shtm

So basically once this fully kicks in 99% of these HHO sites will have to shut down or change there false claims of how the system works and fuel economy testiomonies.

We will see these site dropping of the map soon as they should have done years ago.

But of course HHO works like advertised and they can provide proof so maybe we won't LOL.

[artnesmith]

I did not read your entire post. Sorry, got better things to do. However, you are calling me a liar. I find this offensive. We no longer have anything to say to each other. My hobby is HHO and my notes are my own. Nothing I post gets anything less from you other than insults and and implications against my character. I post results at approximately 45-55 miles per hour, approximately 1,000 rpm light load. You come back implying I can't add and am an idiot posting flow results from 3,000 rpm or so. This will not go on. No matter what anyone posts, you jump in like the jerk that you are using the anonymity of the keyboard to be extremely offensive. Have you not noticed no one else responds? Drop it. I have.

[dvldoc]

I never called you a liar, but if proving proof of what you say is true is to hard for you then take it however you like. The only way my post can insult you is if the truth hurts. Even at 1000rpms 1 liter per minute to 2 liter per minutes of hydrogen gas production is nothing in the scheme of the internal combustion engine.

Like I stated no proof will ever be provided on these threads. When I post I refer to HHO as a whole not individuals except for the people who run the scam companies like water4gas and the one you so happly talked about as doing a project with Ford with the CEO's endorsement even though they were being sued by the federal trade commission and were involved in false advertisement and screwing there customers out of money. If it's not you you should not be insulted, If your refer them as a source of proof HHO works then that's a different story.

I'm far from anonymous, But the old Devil is done on this one, it seems my questions are to hard.

If you cannot handle someone telling you your wrong and asking you to provide proof of the claims of how your kits work then maybe the net is not the place for you. Anthing that is combustible that people are putting in their expensive engine should be challenged fully.

You provided no proof and were not able to explain how I am wrong and how your correct.

As stated before all HHO threads end the same, no proof. But who are any of use for wanting some simple facts. Really is asking for the name of the shop you claim that tunes for HHO in your state a out of line question? Or any real test done to show mpg gains, I think not.

[dvldoc]

[SIZE=3]

[SIZE=3]Dear dvldoc,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]You have received a new private message at Tsikot Philippines 2009 from artnesmith, entitled "WTF".[/SIZE]


[SIZE=3]This is the message that was sent:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]***************[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]What is your major malfunction? You just don't stop do you? You don't care about anything I provide, so shut up. Are you prodding me for a physical confrontation? Is that what you are up to?[/SIZE]

Your kidding right? [/SIZE]

[dvldoc]

Why do people with no post count always wind up on these HHO threads.

I'm sure you don't promote HHO on any blogs or anything right Arthur Nesmith


http://diyhho.blogspot.com/
http://www.performancempg.com/projec...gen/index.html
http://www.bestfuelmileage.com/hydrogen/

Try not to be so angry, smile


:evillaugh

[artnesmith]

I sure am a good looking guy aren't I? My wife didn't like the beard, so I don't sport a beard any more. She said I was more "pogi" without it. What's your point with that post other than to antagonize? That first link has nothing to do with me at all. I believe I gave permission to use some video or something there. The next link is my website, but the part for updates on my hydrogen projects on my car are out of date. No hydrogen cells for sale there either. The last one is for my local HHO club. Once again, nothing for sale. We communicate and post meeting dates there.

Back to the subject at hand, here is a link to a video from July 2008. This, if I remember correctly, is a homemade Smacks unit I installed on my VW Beetle. The generator on the Beetle has virtually no output at idle, like most generators, so this unit is drawing most of it's power from the battery. Once I decided to video this, I had trouble finding the camera, then no batteries. I finally installed batteries, then no memory card. Once I got everything together a considerable amount of time passed. I say, if I remember, 10 or 15 minutes run time, but my wife was timing it and said it was 35 minutes from when I removed the fuel line to the point where I reattached the fuel line. The motor never stops running, running on the HHO from the Smacks unit mounted under the back seat. Of course, it was barely running. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/user/HemilGre...18/UMp92dtzLsg

Here's a humorous side note. In my home town so many people have found this video and seen it. I do mention the engine is barely running and you can hear the engine speed up when I reconnect the fuel line at the end. Yet, so many people ask me, "Is it still running only on water?" Most people miss the important details don't they? I've learned a lot about making the same HHO at lower amps than what this primitive unit was capable of. But even this clunker was more productive than most of what is being sold on the Internet. We tried real hard to measure HHO output on one of those Mason Jar hydrogen units so many people buy off of the Internet cheaply (cheap compared to some). Even after sealing the lid to be sure nothing was leaking, there was not enough HHO to measure after 10 minutes run time. What's more, after 30 minutes run time the unit had not accumulated even .1 liter of gas. It was drawing 6 amps at the time using baking soda, horribly dangerous for an engine. Clearly these are best used without electrolyte and disconnected from any electrical supply because they are pretty much useless.

I want to apologize to everyone for the bitter and heated exchange of which I've been a participant. I hope it hasn't ruined this thread for everyone. Clearly I was trying to be a jerk in the presence of a master in that field. Hopefully we can get this thread back on the right track.

[dvldoc]

So does that mean your going to post up some proof, or the name of the shops that Tune for HHO. There's none in your town I could find. From what I read on your forum all that your group has accomplished it to build, rebuild and build again HHO units. No real testing on vehicles using any type of modern equipment.

Nothing wrong with testing, and building these unit IMO, but youtube videos do not contribute to anything about real testing or proof these systems work.

When you can produce 50 liters per minute then you will have something to post about.

[artnesmith]

[SIZE="4"]From a private message from our extremely nice and considerate friend dvldoc[/SIZE]

I guess you did not bother to notice I'm a paid sponsor or vendor on 90% of the forums I post on.

I don't waste my time on HHO forums but when you guys bring this junk to real car forums of course I step up.

You guys do nothing but test, build, and rebuild these unit and cannot prove they work.

Of course I am on automotive forums, and those graphics you speak of are dynos I have done, almost all of the ones I posted here have been done right in the Philippines.

You cannot come up with even 5 people that will say they got significant gains from HHO I can come up with a list of 1000's of customers around the world with gains on our systems. Hmm lets think here. Oh yeah I'm in this months issue of Eurotuner oh I wonder why? And have been in half the high performance magazines for articles around the US. But I don't know what I'm talking about.

Maybe you guys should stick to tinkering in your garages until you can prove your systems do what they say.

Oh by the way since you think I'm just some car guy I'm also a active duty U.S Navy Hospital Corpsman, Fleet Marine force type of almost 18 years, I actually just got from Iraq 5 months ago.

So smack talk all you like everone respects this Devil doc, henes the name of Devilsown Alcohol injection.

So you know who your arguing with. And second my company is only run by Me and my partner Chance with 2 female employees, so your observations suck when you say my staff. And yes were well past the half a million a year in sales that's why we are everywere duh.

I'll still pound you HHO guys when I'm in the Horn of Africa next year for another 1 year deployment on the war on terror.

Peace out HM1 (AW/FMF) Muhammad,

Let me commend you for your military service sir. I'm a former Navy guy myself. I don't believe you when you say you are such a small company considering the massive amount of posting promoting your product across more auto forums than I can count. I counted past 1,000 posts directly promoting your product, and that was only a small fraction of what Google brought up. "Just because you say it's so, doesn't mean it is." I doubt it.

I'm so sorry sir that you are more wealthy, smart, important and dangerous than the rest of us. Doesn't scare me at all. In fact, it infuriates me tremendously as I already have told you. Be advised, I've asked you to drop it and you refused. Posts like the ones you and I have been making are clearly against the rules of forums like this one. Don't expect me to continue to participate.

Back to the purpose of this forum. While I don't sell anything, others do. Most not so honest. However, there are two guys on the Internet that have helped me at no cost or sales to me and are very proficient at HHO technology. In fact, one guy just made a good breakthrough on dry cell technology judging by this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-zYs...=1256829301.86

This is Steve from http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/
His YouTube account http://www.youtube.com/user/delvis11

Another honest person is Zerofossilfuel http://alt-nrg.org/
His YouTube account http://www.youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel#p/u/

They do sell HHO items, but more important, just watching their videos you can see how HHO production has increased while amps have dropped over just the past one year. Anytime I have asked for help they've responded and been very helpful.

Take care everyone. Watch out for the "Big Bad Bear"

[dvldoc]

My friend I provide more tech advice for people in countries all over the world in a week I sell something that works as it's stated, and does exactly what it's supposed to do.

I knew you would post my PM and was hoping you would just prove my point once again you cannot provide any proof of HHO working. It's just a bunch of guys tinkering with electrolysis with no real substantial gains

And by the way most people know who I am already once again Duh, I'm have vendors in almost every country, Looking me up is like looking any major company so of course I am everywhere, The reason we are on forums is to get tech support to our customers and answer peoples questions about water injection no matter what brand they choose to go with The company has been around for over 5 years. And stands a testimant to my commitment to customer service since I answer all question even when I'm in a WAR ZONE!!

I see you left out what you sent me in your PM, MR GRUMPY BEAR LOL

And what point would that be? That you continue to insult and offend me to the point of extreme anger?

Let's get clear. I noticed you are a forum regular. I don't visit forums very often, maybe even month intervals. The charts/pictures and links you posted at our hydrogen thread are very common throughout forums, to the point I could not count them. You alone have posted on more random [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]auto[/color][/color] forums beyond counting. In fact, looks to be more than 100 and possibly hundreds of posts. More yet, individuals clearly linked to your company have posted thousands, yes thousands, of posts across random forums on the [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Internet[/color][/color]. You are selling your product. Great. I do not sell hydrogen cells and enjoy discussing these civilly with other like minded people. I do not like the way our exchange was going. I asked nicely for you to stop, yet at that point you posted back 3 more times. I re-read the post, very offensive. Yes, you are different from me, now let's agree to drop the rhetoric.

Hey man if you can't stand people asking you for evidence of what your talking about then you need to find something that is not a public forum. Anyone else reading this can see you got a anger management problem.

Thanks for posting my pic, Not like I have not been in the newspapers in the Philippines already

Take a chill pill. Oh what's the name of that shop again that tunes for HHO? And what program do they use? What city are they in? :screwloose: You can't give the shops name because it does not exist. Just like your claim of 45% better MPG on your car. Lets see your advance testing methods, Dear god you have been ask the same questions over and over and cannot give a answer, Your as bad as the guy that was doing that earlier in this thread, guess what still no proof from him either. Oh yes your claim you ran your car on just your bubble alone with the gas line cut, yeah you did that with 1 liter per minute of hydrogen right?

Why are HHO guys the only people that think youtube videos prove what they are saying? and links to places that sell these junk products.

How many people would by a product based solely on youtube video and bogus testimonials.

I can be proud I own a company that sells something that works and has real, actually customers with dyno proof, track times, emissions, ever form of data logging known. Were's yours?

Just like I stated, it's like a cult, you guys all do the same thing on every thread. yeah more youtube videos!!! When challeged to provide evidence you dance around the question.

When you guys can make 50 liters per minute then come back with that info until then all these HHO post are a total waste of time period.

I donated 100,000P to Ondoy victims that's how dangerous I am don't be scared of the devil lol I'm not so bad , Facts will always be a win win on this argument. I don't know were you read you were being threatened or someone was trying to scare you. If facts scare you then curl in the fetal position and start crying.

This is Steve from http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/

This website is designed to help the world become energy independent. Using water and 12 volts DC from your cars power supply to generate safe, clean burning hydrogen and oxygen while reducing your emissions to nearly zero.

Increase your gas mileage 20% to 60%. We encourage you to build your own or you can purchase one of our assembled kits.

Oh yeah your brainiac friend also has a tornado air device in his intake LMAO a item proven not to work and actually cause a lose in horse power. Yes he is a true tunner we should take hints from.



STRAIT UP LIES, SHOW THE EMISSION TEST TO PROVE THIS CLAIM!! Stop wasting bandwidth.

[artnesmith]

I don't know anyone that has a tornado device on his car. Other than pictures in catalogs or on shows like Horsepower TV, I've never even seen one. Looks to me you're posting things from sites that have little to do with me except for borrowing some of my videos or link to me.

Of course, we don't own or rent dyno time. Moot point. When you are playing around with something that displaces gasoline at moderate throttle and does not increase horsepower, dynos are a moot point. I never said there was a shop that tunes for HHO. I said there were several. Never had to use one myself, so that information will have to wait until I see my colleagues on Nov. 14.

You can bully this thread to submission, but we aren't intimidated by you at all. Your filibuster methods don't fool anyone. You have a vindictive attitude for some yet unknown reason. Your business is totally unrelated to anything we are doing. Accept that. As long as you continue this rhetoric, you are in violation of the terms of use for this forum. I won't continue to answer you any further. Learn to use a spell checker or proof read your posts. Also makes you look ignorant when you use a properly spelled word, but the wrong word for the definition ie "by" when you mean "buy" or "to" when you mean "too." After reading my posted private message compared to that remarkable piece of work you sent me, I feel absolutely amazed! You must not see what the rest of us see in your message. Nothing wrong with mine, more of the same as what was posted publicly between us, which to be honest I am somewhat ashamed that I allow you to draw me into this pointless insult contest. Your message is shameless and a clue to why you are acting this way. You have a bully personality and want to intimidate and control. I'd be willing to bet good money you won't ever drop this either and continue until the moderator intervenes.

For the rest of us that are reading this. What did you think of the video from Steve (delvis11 on YouTube)? Every time he does something and posts his efficiency numbers, when I duplicate his work it always comes out exactly like what he posts. Very honest and knowledgeable person. Only one year ago most of us were happy to see efficiency numbers at 40%. As we have improved our knowledge and with the discovery of the dry cell efficiencies of 60% are now not unusual. He just hit into the mid 70 percent range. Very exciting to see what we are learning to do. The cell that was running my 1600 CC VW engine for 35 minutes without the fuel line connected did not even have 40% efficiency by comparison.

[niky]

Of course, we don't own or rent dyno time. Moot point. When you are playing around with something that displaces gasoline at moderate throttle and does not increase horsepower, dynos are a moot point. I never said there was a shop that tunes for HHO. I said there were several. Never had to use one myself, so that information will have to wait until I see my colleagues on Nov. 14.

Moot point if you're talking Dynojets. Almost everyone else uses load-type dynos, which can measure fuel consumption at clamped engine loads at precise rpm points at part-throttle. This is how the EPA does their fuel consumption testing, by the way... so anyone interested in increasing fuel economy would know this.

And dyno time is cheap. I've personally done over two dozen pulls on my car and multiple tuning sessions, to boot... typically one hour's worth of testing, which is enough to try a dozen different settings on your electrolyzer or enrichment settings for hydrogen boost... is only $85 - $100.

You can bully this thread to submission, but we aren't intimidated by you at all. Your filibuster methods don't fool anyone. You have a vindictive attitude for some yet unknown reason. Your business is totally unrelated to anything we are doing. Accept that. As long as you continue this rhetoric, you are in violation of the terms of use for this forum.

Nowhere in the terms of use of this forum does it say that asking for proof is against forum rules.

In fact:

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/annou....php?f=18&a=19

4) You have the responsibility to ensure that all your posts contribute to the welfare and good of the community

Ensuring that members of the tsikot community have accurate facts about modifications that claim to increase fuel economy is for the welfare of the community.

I won't continue to answer you any further. Learn to use a spell checker or proof read your posts. Also makes you look ignorant when you use a properly spelled word, but the wrong word for the definition ie "by" when you mean "buy" or "to" when you mean "too." After reading my posted private message compared to that remarkable piece of work you sent me, I feel absolutely amazed! You must not see what the rest of us see in your message. Nothing wrong with mine, more of the same as what was posted publicly between us, which to be honest I am somewhat ashamed that I allow you to draw me into this pointless insult contest. Your message is shameless and a clue to why you are acting this way. You have a bully personality and want to intimidate and control. I'd be willing to bet good money you won't ever drop this either and continue until the moderator intervenes.

For the rest of us that are reading this. What did you think of the video from Steve (delvis11 on YouTube)? Every time he does something and posts his efficiency numbers, when I duplicate his work it always comes out exactly like what he posts. Very honest and knowledgeable person. Only one year ago most of us were happy to see efficiency numbers at 40%. As we have improved our knowledge and with the discovery of the dry cell efficiencies of 60% are now not unusual. He just hit into the mid 70 percent range. Very exciting to see what we are learning to do. The cell that was running my 1600 CC VW engine for 35 minutes without the fuel line connected did not even have 40% efficiency by comparison.

Let's see... At 40% efficiency, you're running a 1600 CC engine for 35 minutes?

Given that an engine of that size can drink 1 liter of gasoline in one hour... so... say... half a liter of gasoline for 35 minutes... and that you have 40% efficiency... do you have proof that you've consumed or electrolyzed 17 liters of water to produce enough hydrogen to run your engine?

Because it doesn't matter how many liters of hydrogen gas you produce... you have to produce enough hydrogen, in weight, to run the combustion process of the engine. On a strictly 1:1 basis, assuming you can scrub the oxygen out of your bubbles, leaving pure hydrogen, you need to electrolyze 7 liters of water to replace 1 liter of gasoline.

These HHO videos show a lot of bubbles... but I don't see any of these cars carrying water tanks several times the size of their gasoline tanks... and I don't see any videos with wholesale water-guzzling. :hysterical:

Measuring the hydrogen gas by liters is useless. A liter is a volume measurement, and gases change volume given atmospheric pressure, temperature, etcetera... propane increases in volume (a lot) by heat... for example.

I could, mind you, produce 1 million liters of hydrogen from 1 liter of water... at near vacuum pressures, yes... but it'll still be 1 million liters of hydrogen.

[ghosthunter]

So is this the time I should go buy the popcorn? :popcorn:

[Phoenix67]

*artnesmith... I do think HHO has it's own merits... but providing a scientific proof with the dyno (with a method that EPA use) would be a better proof to show the world that it work. The test method is cheap.

testimonies are for non-technical people.

*dvldoc... have proven his work and words in both testimonies and scientific ways (that conforms to the method used by EPA)

the challenge to HHO is simple... if it does really work, then a scientific proof should show it ... doesn't it?!?

not to agitate anyone... but it is just my two cents worth.

[niky]

*artnesmith: If you think we're being hard on you, we gave dvldoc the same treatment when he first came here. Healthy skepticism and a request for proof. He gave us the theory and the proof. In fact, he came to the Philippines in persom to show proof, did live demonstrations, dyno-runs and live installs with back-to-back performance testing and dyno-testing on customer cars... not specially prepared "demo" cars. And not just a single customer car with a wonky carburetor... or a knackered diesel injection pump, but numerous customer cars, both old-tech and modern.

If you've got a product that really works... why not spend on it... show that it works... and sell it? That's what he does.

[artnesmith]

Nowhere in the terms of use of this forum does it say that asking for proof is against forum rules. In fact:

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/annou....php?f=18&a=19 Ensuring that members of the tsikot community have accurate facts about modifications that claim to increase fuel economy is for the welfare of the community.

Maybe I wasn't clear, the part we, have been guilty of are these specific points:

2) You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

5) You will respect other people's right to personal privacy. You will not post any other person's identifying information

Your post didn't imply I was a moron or a scammer. However, pretty much every post by our rifle toting military medic was very insulting and pointed. I am also guilty as charged. Just simply wanted to get back to a more civilized discussion, since this is a thread about HHO. No one that I'm aware of is selling anything concerning HHO here, nor do we have any reason to dissuade anyone from buying anyone else's credible products. If you look on the Internet, not only do you see a lack of credible information on HHO, but many actually exaggerate to the point of lying. I don't do that. Granted, I haven't done the more elaborate tests either.

As a side note, one of our club members bought a very deficient HHO cell from the Internet for around 800 dollars. The seller in a phone conversation said it made 2.9 liters per minute at 15 amps. This is 180% of Faraday's Law. In other words, he would have no reason for using a gas tank since this was overunity and the more it ran the faster the engine would go. What are odds this was correct? I warned him, but he bought it anyway. No refunds so he's out 800 dollars. I do know the down side of these, but I don't participate in any retailing and just enjoy talking to like minded people.

Let's see... At 40% efficiency, you're running a 1600 CC engine for 35 minutes? Given that an engine of that size can drink 1 liter of gasoline in one hour... so... say... half a liter of gasoline for 35 minutes... and that you have 40% efficiency... do you have proof that you've consumed or electrolyzed 17 liters of water to produce enough hydrogen to run your engine?

Because it doesn't matter how many liters of hydrogen gas you produce... you have to produce enough hydrogen, in weight, to run the combustion process of the engine. On a strictly 1:1 basis, assuming you can scrub the oxygen out of your bubbles, leaving pure hydrogen, you need to electrolyze 7 liters of water to replace 1 liter of gasoline. These HHO videos show a lot of bubbles... but I don't see any of these cars carrying water tanks several times the size of their gasoline tanks... and I don't see any videos with wholesale water-guzzling. :hysterical:

Maybe if you read it again you'll notice I mention the electrical system has a generator so virtually no output at low RPM. The system was running off of the battery of course for the 35 minutes. Had the car been equipped with an alternator with high output at low RPM the amount of HHO necessary to idle the engine may have been insufficient to pull the extra load. I did this at a time when I was trying to discredit HHO technology, so I'm aware of the limitations. It would take about 8 liters of HHO per minute to idle a 5.0 liter V8. I believe that little 1600 CC VW engine would probably need a lot less. If you listen carefully, the engine was slowing down to the point had I not reattached the fuel line it probably would have stopped running. Just demonstrating production and the fact that the gas is combustible.

Measuring the hydrogen gas by liters is useless. A liter is a volume measurement, and gases change volume given atmospheric pressure, temperature, etcetera... propane increases in volume (a lot) by heat... for example. I could, mind you, produce 1 million liters of hydrogen from 1 liter of water... at near vacuum pressures, yes... but it'll still be 1 million liters of hydrogen.

Point well taken. However we are just measuring our progress at our sea level to determine whether we are improving or wasting time. If the club foots the bill for more elaborate testing, that's fine. We just spend over 1,000 dollars building a scam unit that most of us knew was a scam before we started. But we work as a democracy I guess so we built it anyway from the plans one of our members paid good money for off of the Internet. This money would have been better spent on more credible diagnositic tools. But since almost weekly we improve things, it would be costly to test that often. I brought up the subject of becoming commmercialized if that was our goal at one meeting. Members were horrified at the prospect of building and selling these. We just want to see what is possible and what isn't. I doubt you'll see any competing products from anyone in our club.

These units are extremely difficult to install and operate. I doubt anyone would recommend one over more main stream proven technologies. One guy came by my house that built and installed on on his car, and did not get any mileage improvement. He heard about me from others and came by to let me know these do not work. I showed him my mileage figures and he seemed unimpressed, probably felt I was exaggerating. So I switched on my unit to show him and I could tell he was amazed at the sudden burst of gas bubbles. He said, "Mine never worked like that!" I am certainly having a good time with this.

[artnesmith]

*artnesmith... I do think HHO has it's own merits... but providing a scientific proof with the dyno (with a method that EPA use) would be a better proof to show the world that it work. The test method is cheap.

testimonies are for non-technical people.

*dvldoc... have proven his work and words in both testimonies and scientific ways (that conforms to the method used by EPA)

the challenge to HHO is simple... if it does really work, then a scientific proof should show it ... doesn't it?!?

not to agitate anyone... but it is just my two cents worth.

You are right. Under different circumstances I would buy a unit such as Devilowns sells. Of course in light of recent exhanges probably be from a different company for sure. I think on my other cars with EFI, that would be a great option. Never once do you see me say anything about this technology that implies it's worse that HHO. On an EFI car adding HHO is a nightmare, one I dread whenever a club member begins such a project. None of my EFI cars are equipped with HHO.

If you take a vehicle getting 30 MPG and increase mileage 10%, just as an example, in 25,000 miles this car saves 83 gallons of fuel. Not very impressive is it? But take a vehicle getting 10 MPG the 10% raises mileage to 10.1 MPG average. Doesn't sound like much does it? This equates to a savings of 250 gallons in 25,000 miles of driving. Most of us HHO guys add these units to small cars with small displacement engines due to the difficulty in getting production numbers adequate for bigger cars. But it's the larger vehicles that can benefit from any effort to save fuel no matter what the technology. Yet, most of these vehicles like the Hummers, large SUVs or package delivery vehicles rarely try to save fuel. Hard to imagine isn't it?