E10 Ethanol, bad for your engine & economy? [MERGED]

**ghosthunter** · September 14th, 2009 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by impulzz

so sir GH,

petron is selling

xtra unleaded as e10

xcs and balze as pure?

plan on switching to xcs kasi my vitara has less milage per liter on e10 and the engine response is slower, pansin lalo na when overtaking and on inclines

hirap kasi paniwalaan mga gasboy, paiba iba ang sagot sa bawat gas station.

In the very least, XCS is unleaded gasoline without ethanol. I am not sure about Blaze.

**p_borj** · September 14th, 2009 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by ghosthunter

Petron
-against E10 because of potential engine damage especially on older cars
-selling E10 and non-E10 gasolines

Shell
-says E10 is fine
-selling E10 gasolines only

From how I see it, Shell has a problem if the public believes regarding the E10 problem with engines. Less customers would gas up at Shell stations since all they have at the pumps are E10 mixed gasolines.

+1 to Ghosthunter. Eh ano ngayon kung masama talaga sa engine ang E10, ang mahalaga sa Shell eh makabenta sila. Alangan namang sabihin nila na masama ang E10 sa sasakyan natin edi walang tumangkilik sa kanila.

Ang Petron XCS at Caltex Gold po ba eh may E10 na rin? Pumangit na tunog ng makina ng Advie ko dahil sa E10 unleaded na yan, nabawasan FC ko drastically, humina ang hatak, naging barubal ang takbo at bukod sa lahat, hindi ko alam ang ginagawa nito sa engine parts ko.

**ghosthunter** · September 14th, 2009 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by p_borj

Ang Petron XCS at Caltex Gold po ba eh may E10 na rin? Pumangit na tunog ng makina ng Advie ko dahil sa E10 unleaded na yan, nabawasan FC ko drastically, humina ang hatak, naging barubal ang takbo at bukod sa lahat, hindi ko alam ang ginagawa nito sa engine parts ko.

From what I know, Petron XCS is without ethanol (for now). Not sure about Caltex.

The reason why I need gasoline without E10 is that E10 gasoline seems to "spoil" if kept in the gas tank of my car for a few weeks if not used. Since my car is using Auto-LPG, the gasoline system is hardly used (once every one or two weeks just to "circulate").

It used to be I can keep gasoline (bought from Shell) in my tank for months until I slowly use it up. Lately, I had a 1/3 tank of gasoline (from Shell) go bad on me resulting in rough running engine and no/low power when I press down on the accelerator pedal.

**mreyes** · September 14th, 2009 10:12 AM

caltex gold or petron xcs na lang ako...

more concrete infos for us guys...sa USA naman galing so di ko alam kung pareho e10 nila sa e10 natin...

http://www.southmissouriannews.com/story/1565311.html

Corn was thought to be the golden crop that would fuel the nation and help decrease the United States' dependence on foreign oil. However, there are those who believe the nation swapped one problem for another.

Ethanol is believed to be the source of many headaches for people with some automobile, boat and small engine problems.

Most gas stations now have gas mixed with about 10 percent ethanol or E10. However, there are various ways moisture can build up in the fuel since alcohol, which is a product of the ethanol making process, attracts water and can dilute gasoline. It is also possible for more than the legal limit of 10 percent ethanol to be put into the mix.

According to several Web sites, including www.fuel-testers.com, both drivers and mechanics have reported engine problems due to phase separation and water contamination of gasoline, the ability of the fuel to attract, absorb and hold moisture in the fuel tank, an increased occurrence of lean or water diluted fuel, vapor lock or fuel starvation, a drop in octane levels, decreased fuel efficiency and mpg, parts and engine wear and a decreased shelf life of gasoline.

When combined with ethanol, gas only stays stable for about three months. This time table means a person would have to drain the fuel from the gas tank before storing the vehicle, such as a boat or car, for a long period of time to ensure the vehicle will run smoothly later and rust doesn't occur inside the tank.

Problems associated with ethanol are damage to internal engine parts including metal, rubber and plastic parts. Metal can be corroded over time and flexible fuel lines can develop cracks and punctures. Mechanics have also reported carburetor damage and increased clogging.

In boats, ethanol can damage some fiberglass fuel tanks. Check the owner's manuel to see if ethanol is safe to run in the tank of a vehicle.

Some driving issues motorists have faced when using ethanol include lack of power or energy in the engine, hard starting and operating problems and slow acceleration and stalling, especially at low speeds.

Older vehicles, mostly those built before 1980 and classic cars, cannot run on E10, neither can expensive vehicles like BMWs or Porsches. It is recommended that these vehicles use a gasoline with at least an octane level of 91 or 93.

Newer vehicle engines, however, have been adapted by auto makers to be more suitable for E10. Most auto makers, now, say in their vehicles' manuels that E10 is safe to use.

Though there has been some harsh criticism on E10 fuel, there are some good things about it. Ethanol is a solvent and a cleanser for the engine. It will wash away any dirt and grime that has built up over the years. However, this fact can also be a bad thing. While E10 will clean the engine, the gunk has to go somewhere, so it ends up clogging filters and other parts of the engine.

Some recommendations on how to reduce engine problems when using E10 include testing the gas before pumping it into the vehicle. These testing kits can be bought online and can tell the consumer how much water has accumulated in the gasoline.

Drivers who are worried about what they are pumping into their vehicles can also use a higher octane fuel (above 90). Because ethanol can potentially have water contamination it can reduce the octane level by about three points.

Motorists can also avoid using fuel additives and fuel system treatments because many of these have alcohol in them that can attract even more moisture into the vehicle's engine.

Another recommendation is saving up money to invest in an E85 flex-fuel vehicle. These vehicles look exactly like their natural gas vehicle counterparts with a similar price tag, as well.

These vehicles have had their engines modified so alcohol will not easily corrode the engines' parts. Flex-fuel vehicles can use a mixture of 85 percent ethanol to 15 percent gas. They can also run on natural gas and E10 -- really, any mixture of ethanol and gas -- without harming the engine.

As for small engines, such as lawn mower engines, weed eaters, chainsaws, blower vacs and other small engine appliances, it's recommended to use natural gas rather than E10. However, the Renewable Fuels Association (RFA), the national trade association for the U.S. ethanol industry, says small engines can effectively use E10. "Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance. Small engine manufacturers have long permitted the use of ethanol fuels," according to the RFA.

and another one...

http://www.kval.com/news/local/19301694.html

EUGENE, Ore. - It was supposed to help cut carbon emissions. But just a few months into a new Oregon law requiring all gas stations to sell E10 gasoline, mechanics are saying the green-mixture may leave motorists in the red.

"The fuel sours quicker which means it goes bad," said East Amazon Automotive Repair General Manager Dave Biancalana.

Biancalana said ethanol acts as a solvent and cleans the engine.

"What we're seeing is rough running conditions because the computers are having to adapt to a different fuel mixture which can also cause the service engine lights to come on a little more frequently," said Biancalana.

One of the problems you might find with your car is with the fuel filter. They should last you 30,000 miles. But Biancalana said with E10, that number could be cut in half.

And the older your car is, the worse off it may be.

"Carborated cars are really not going to like ethanol," said Biancalana. "They're not designed for it."

Biancalana said all those costs will add up.

"$300-500 depending on what you see and what is being affected," said Biancalana.

It doesn't end there. Not only are mechanics worried it will hurt your car, but it may also reduce your gas mileage by two to five percent.

Biancalana isn't the only one worried. We called several other mechanics who all say they are very concerned about the effects of ethanol on cars. They told us while it's a good idea, it's going to cause problems.

And this might just be the tip of the iceberg. It's still new which means the worst may be yet to come.

"The true test will be once it's been out there for six to nine months," said Biancalana.

We heard what the mechanics have to say. To be fair, we called ethanol-maker Sequential Bio Fuels to see what they had to say about the claims.

Co-founder Tyson Keever told us E10 will run a little rough at first. But once the system get used to it, the engine will actually run cleaner. As for the claim that E10 reduces gas mileage, Keever said that's probably true.

But, he adds ethanol is a higher octane fuel, so it will give you more power.

**p_borj** · September 14th, 2009 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by ghosthunter

From what I know, Petron XCS is without ethanol (for now). Not sure about Caltex.

The reason why I need gasoline without E10 is that E10 gasoline seems to "spoil" if kept in the gas tank of my car for a few weeks if not used. Since my car is using Auto-LPG, the gasoline system is hardly used (once every one or two weeks just to "circulate").

It used to be I can keep gasoline (bought from Shell) in my tank for months until I slowly use it up. Lately, I had a 1/3 tank of gasoline (from Shell) go bad on me resulting in rough running engine and no/low power when I press down on the accelerator pedal.

Well then, Petron XCS muna ako ty. Asar talaga ako sa E10 na ito. Sa ngayon kahit papaano mura pa ang presyo ng gasolina, paano na yan kung magmahal pa lalo tapos E10 blended. Pangit na nga FC mo, ubos pa pera pang-gas sigh. Ibang-iba yung pure gasoline talaga ang pinakarga mo. Too bad, pati yung pinapakargahan kong Flying V dati, ginawa na ring E10 ang pure unleaded gasoline nila sigh.

Hindi na rin ako papakarga sa kanila.

**ghosthunter** · September 14th, 2009 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by p_borj

Well then, Petron XCS muna ako ty. Asar talaga ako sa E10 na ito. Sa ngayon kahit papaano mura pa ang presyo ng gasolina, paano na yan kung magmahal pa lalo tapos E10 blended. Pangit na nga FC mo, ubos pa pera pang-gas sigh. Ibang-iba yung pure gasoline talaga ang pinakarga mo. Too bad, pati yung pinapakargahan kong Flying V dati, ginawa na ring E10 ang pure unleaded gasoline nila sigh.

Hindi na rin ako papakarga sa kanila.

Think of it as an "incentive" to switch to Auto-LPG

Much cheaper than gasoline and gets as much (or near to as much) FC as gasoline.

**Wh1stl3r** · September 14th, 2009 10:04 PM

If it was intended to phase out cars with carburetors, it should at least still perform well on efi engines. I've so far not confirmed any claims made by E10 fuels. The claim "more power" is dubious at best. I have to rev the engine a lot more to get the same acceleration from what I used to get on regular unleaded.

Try Caltex Gold. E10 or not, it works well.

**bennisiozo** · September 15th, 2009 12:31 PM

this is the site for Philippine Daily Inquirer regarding their Sept 8 2009 issue regarding ETHANOL. http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

click the calendar and select sept 8. then on right side click page A4.

for other infos that would explain further for ETHANOL check out this site so you would know is ethanol really has either PLUSES or MINUSES. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

for the summary, well ethanol is primarily extracted (and process) from sugar cane. it is a colorless waterless (liquid) alcohol with a chemical equation C2H5-OH. usually use for fuel for burners in chemistry laboratory and the well know spirited alcoholic beverages.

when use as fuel or burned, it attracts 3 compound of oxygen2, it produces 2 compound of cabon dioxide and 3 compound of water. C2H5-OH + (3)O2 = (2) CO2 + (3) H2O. simple chemical reaction (chem 101).

ethanol is highly volatile, meaning when expose to air or a minimal amount of heat, it evaporates quickly.

these explain why the E10 gasoline sold today said petron can damage engines. petron said it is highly corrosive and harfull to fuel pumps, carburetors, fuel lines injectors and everything in the fuel system. though gasoline stations recommend it to fuel injected engines only and other car manufacturer also claim that some of their vehicles are E10 ready already.

if you would notice and analyze clearly Ethanol itself is not the harmful substance in the E10. even if you would submerge a methal or the fuel pump for example in a pure ethanol. nothing would happen.

its ethanol's property. it is volatile!E10 inside the fuel tank evaporates, water vapor is form, so when you park your vehicle and the whole night pass, the next morning when you travel the water vapor on the tank mixed with the fuel. so the fuel is contaminated that causes the reaction and form the corrosive compounds that harms fuel system components.

also during combustion, water is form when ethanol is burned. meaning, again after a whole night has passed, the next morning. water vapor accumulates in the combustion chamber and exhaust port and in exhaust valves. though this factors quickly eliminated when the engine runs and heat up.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
E10 fuel is 90 percent gasoline blended with 10 percent ethanol. I'm sure everybody knows that. and it is given a purple coloring to distinguish it from unleaded gasoline which is green, premium is red or dark red, regular gasoline light red, orange. V power (shell) and Blaze (petron) is unleaded and colored blue. if all this kind of gasoline is blended with ethanol, they should be colored purple also!!! but they are not.

also, base on the data on this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol, E10 has a maximum of 93-94 percent of OCTANE rating with lower energy you can squish compare to pure gasoline. so if V-power has and blaze has ethanol blended to it, it would not have an 95 and 96 percent octane rating (respectively).

on the other hand, compare to gasoline fuel when burned. E10 produces less harmful compounds and substances in the air. a pure ethanol would yields many of the products of incomplete combustion produced by gasoline.

since E10 produces less power than pure gasoline, carburetors needs to be re-jetted, so it permits larger volume of fuel to mix with the air entering combustion chamber. this is not a problem with EFI engines since, various sensors monitors exhaust gas, intake air, injector pulse and others to compensate the fuel mixture for combustion. meaning it needs more E10 fuel two produce the power that pure gasoline can.

E10 is only cheap because of its price, but for the fuel consumption better check your chem 101 and math

**bennisiozo** · September 15th, 2009 12:32 PM

base on this sites, shell V power fuels usually has a RON of 95 and above octane rating. it did not state that to get a higher rating of octane they mixed a 10% ethanol. like the 97 octane rating that is sold today by shell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_V-Power.

http://www.shell.com/static/ph-en/do..._holthusen.pdf

site for caltex fuels info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol...he_Philippines

**bennisiozo** · September 15th, 2009 01:01 PM

for the reason why does E10 is only recommended for EFI engines are:

first,its not applicable to all EFI engines especially if EFI engines does not have oxygen sensors. oxygen sensors monitors the exhaust gas oxygen content (if it burns th fuel efficiently) send signal to the ECU to compensate the injection of fuel to match with the intake air to have a right air-fuel mixture. so if the O2 sensor sends ECU that it needs to give more gasoline mixture to injector. the injector pulse is longer, meaning more gasoline to inject and shorter pulse for lesser gasoline to inject.

secondly, E10 fuel gives lesser power on same volume of pure gasoline if compare (just look at the tables on the links i gave earlier). example an air-fuel mixture of gasoline is 14:1, 14 volume of air to a volume of gasoline. it gives lets say 1 power. for an E10 you would need 14:1.5 ration just to have a 1 power. this is because you squish lesser energy on E10 fuel compared to pure gasoline.

third, so thats why it is not recommended for carburetor engines. because caburetor engines doesn't have engine management to monitor air fuel mixture and exhaust gas emission. it is not recommended, though it can be use ofcourse. but you would sacrifice engine power and performance. E10 or the ethanol it self would not cause the rust formation nor melt rubber or corrode aluminums and gaskets. but the property of ethanol that atracts moisture (its water) that mixes with the fuel. this forms the chemical reaction that causes the complians, and you know it.

and lastly, to think if it is really fuel efficient? no! since you would need more fuel to give the right air fuel mixture and to give the enough power. this means more fuel consumption. it is only cheap because E10 fuel cost less that pure gasoline. check the sites again ok.

one thing good about E10... it really emits low exhaust gas emission. it would also be good if ethanol is locally supplied. but still, we import E10 gasoline.