MVPMAP's PhUV feedback thread

**OyiL** · June 14th, 2007 09:59 AM

RP vehicle makers launch prototype with all-new parts
By Ronnel Domingo
Inquirer
Last updated 07:49am (Mla time) 06/13/2007

MANILA, Philippines -- A group of automotive parts makers is targeting fleet buyers in a bid to push its “national vehicle” project forward to commercial production following the launch of a prototype yesterday.
Eddie S. Jose, president of the Motor Vehicle Parts Manufacturers Association of the Philippines (MVPMAP), said his group would approach companies and even subdivisions in the first marketing salvo for what they dubbed the Philippine Utility Vehicle (PhUV).

“The PhUV needs positive feedback from (all fronts) to get it moving,” Jose said. “We need support from the government, financing institutions, assemblers and, of course, the buying public.”

Although the government had expressed support for the PhUV, Jose said the MVPMAP was talking with agencies, such as the Department of Trade and Industry, to muster the particular help the group needs.

“With increasing globalization and economic integration, especially in the region, incentives as packaged through the Investment Priorities Plan are no longer enough,” he said.

But he added that aside from government support for parts makers, assemblers and buyers, there was a host of other factors needed to bring the PhUV through.

“For one, low-cost retail financing must be available,” Jose said. “We are in talks with the Development Bank of the Philippines and the Landbank of the Philippines and their initial responses were positive.”
Jose said support from commercial banks were also needed to help entice institutional buyers as well as individuals to try the PhUV.

Price range
“We need to and we aim at maintaining a price range of P350,000 to P450,000 per unit,” Jose said. “We also target a modest sales volume of 30,000 units.”

He explained that both factors -- the price range and the volume -- were intended to counter the influx of used imported vehicles through the Subic Bay Freeport.

“That is how much a used import costs and our target sales volume is half the demand that these represent,” Jose said.

Also, he said the government could help promote the PhUV if a Supreme Court ruling that bans used imports coming in through Subic was strictly enforced.

“In turn, PhUV sales could help the local automotive industry reach its target of breaking the 100,000-unit mark, which is seen as the threshold that indicates sustained growth,” he added.

Jose also said the PhUV needed more support from local assemblers, especially those participating in the motor vehicle development program although two have enlisted in the effort, truck manufacturer Dreamco Automobile Co. and Francisco Motor Corp.

All-purpose 12-seater

Launched yesterday was a red 12-seat unit that looked like a cross between the Ford Fiera/Toyota Tamaraw type and the modern all-purpose vehicle/mini-van.

Dreamco president William Lee, whose firm supplied the drive train and other parts for the PhUV, said the vehicle was different from other locally designed and assembled vehicles in that the parts used were all brand-new and not “surplus” or second-hand.

Equipped with a 2.1-liter engine, 5-speed manual transmission and 15-inch wheels, the prototype is made up of 60 to 75 percent local content, according to Jose.

All nonlocal parts are sourced from China, including the engine which is original equipment manufacture and not refurbished, like those jeepney alternatives made in Cavite, Nueva Ecija and other parts of the country, he said.

kaya pala ganun yung shape. It is meant to look like an AUV and a mini-van.

**lolo pepe** · June 14th, 2007 10:21 AM

me ibubuga kaya ang engine nito (48.3 HP) paakyat sa Baguio carrying 12 people plus additional cargo?

**oldblue** · June 14th, 2007 10:33 AM

saka aircon?

**oldblue** · June 14th, 2007 10:33 AM

saka aircon?

**orly_andico** · June 14th, 2007 11:37 AM

FWIW (Tsikot PHUV prototype) an engine of this class (4-cylinder, 2.0L diesel, around 40-50hp) costs $1200 from China. I assume in bulk. Factor in shipping and importation costs. Still not bad..

**rsnald** · June 14th, 2007 12:08 PM

went there last night too to take a look, and like most of the tsikoteers who went there to have a look-see, medyo disappointing...but it's a start. here's my opinion... hiramin ko yung post mo weremanok, para di nako mag retype hehehe

Originally Posted by weremanok

1. don't place the door hinges outside the vehicle.
- agree, parang pintuan ng bahay yung itsura, nakalabas yung bisagra hehehe
2. remove the spare tire from the back of the vehicle. it looks like it's "trying hard"
- agree also, looks too big too

3. add some curves to the body to make it more appealing
- pwede nang pagtyagana yung straight and boxy lines. what I don't like is the rain channel on left and right sides of the roof. parang masagwa t yung pagkakagawa nung rain channels

4. the gear shifter definitely needs some work
- i didnt see the insides but based on the picture, para ngang surplus gear shift na kinuha mula sa sinaunang trak or bus

5. change the engine into an isuzu or a mitsubishi diesel
- nagulat ako dun sa engine despite being 2.1L and direct inject, sobrang baba ng horsepower rating (48HP??), mas malakas pa yata isuzu C240 or ever reliable 4BA1

6. coil springs up front
- di naman kelangan, siguro torsion bars na lang ok na rin.

7. bigger tires
- ok na yung tires imho

other comments - yung front grille, agree ako dun sa isang comment, parang chicken wire nga hehehe, talo pa nung ibang jeeney fabricators. sana ginawa na lang nilang molded plastic and painted over with the same body color.
kitang kita mo tuloy yung radiator sa loob na mukhang undersized din. the front leaf spring suspensions also look bad.

lastly, I wonder how it would look in black? :D

well, at least it can't possibly get worse than this right?

I surely hope not... otherwise...sayang yung collaborative efforts nila.

**AG4** · June 14th, 2007 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by pup2

It DOES look like an Anfra! They sloped the front more, improved the interior, and added some quasi-SUV features but the ANFRA influence is quite obvious.

Anfra looks way better than this thing.

1st thing I would have done, collaborate with an experienced manufacturer. Base it on one of their older models like the old Crosswind, Revo or Tamaraw FX for example.
Proton of Malaysia or Tata Motors of India didn't make their own cars or utility vehicles overnight, they had help from experienced manufacturers.
Tata had Mercedes while Proton had Mitsubishi.

TATA 407 (Mercedes influence can still be seen)...

TATA Sumo

TATA Safari

**niky** · June 14th, 2007 03:51 PM

I'm late to this party... I went over and viewed the vehicle yesterday morning before Market Market opened. Apologies to dprox and jedi, I was not able to make it the other night, and I was trying (in vain) to reach you guys.

Anyway, here's my long and exhaustive comments:

[size=4]Technical Analysis[/size]

Much of what we have been talking about in the PhUV thread is seen here, to some extent, and some isn't. Now, let's start with what is:

As expected, the MVPMAP is based on the good old ladder-frame design, as it's something our boys know how to do, and they're good at it.

As such, it's sure to be solid and dependable. The front axle construction and crude suspension design don't bode well for ride control, handling or ride comfort, but then, that's not the point of the PhUV, and most of us used to AUVs and Jeepneys will feel right at home.

I dislike the idea of front drums, but there's really no reason to doubt that they'll actually work.

The engine is another matter. Why are we buying Foton? Isn't there a supply of Korean or Japanese 4D56s, or maybe even cheap Isuzu engines we could get? It's also strange that they predict prices between 350k to 450k, where a Foton vehicle equipped with the same engine retails for around 450 - 550k. So the question is... how much is that engine?

[size=4]Design Analysis[/size]

The interior, as some have stated, is old fashioned, but adequate in some ways... but the preponderance of exposed screws is not encouraging. It would not significantly bring up the costs if those screws were to be repositioned out of sight, would it? The net-type headrests are a big no. They add to the generally outdated feel of the cabin. Switching to a more conventional plush type headrest would improve the cabin ambience a bit.

There are quite a number of things wrong here, and some right things. Sorry if I duplicate any previous comments.

A.1 - Hood and windshield. While it's true that repeating accurate curves (Jeepneys don't count, there is no need to ensure uniformity on open-fender designs) are difficult for local manufacturers, small curves between joints are entirely possible, and easy to roll and weld in. This should be done between the base of the windshied and the body, and the top of the windshield and the roof.

The accent lines don't give the hood shape. They merely accentuate its flatness. Remove. The end of the hood can be moved further back, or at least some curve could be added at the hinges to blend it in with the fenders.

The flat windshield is a good way to save costs (the Dacia Logan does the same thing), but more thought has to go into framing it. A windshield from an Adventure or a Tamaraw supplier would fit, wouldn't it?

A.2 Despite some foibles, I like the headlight design, as a lot of thought seems to have gone into it. This is what I mean about using off-the-shelf parts in creative ways. Unfortunately, the grille design isn't as inspired. The cutline between the grille and the headlight does not match the lines beside it, and the grille itself is filled with the cheapest grade of chicken wire available. A simpler grille with locally available circular screen or a finer mesh would have been even better.

The MVPMAP badge should never have been placed there. It is very simple to make a die for a reasonably good looking badge. It'll cost you a bit for the die, but the badges afterwards won't cost much money (stamped steel or plastic only). If they weren't willing to do it right, they shouldn't have put it at all.

A.3 Beautiful touch... but why? This isn't a sportscar, so it doesn't need the aero. The money that went into this would be better spent on a prettier badge.

A.4 The wheel wells make the square body less boring, so I say: let them stay. My beef is with the shape of the wheel wells themselves, as they flare out at the edges, which makes the wheels look smaller. Have them come straight down after the centerline of the hub, for a more cohesive look.

Also, lose the chrome hubcaps. The wheels behind those caps looked perfectly good... no reason to hide them with cheap crap from Concorde. (no offense to Concorde, I shop there often... hehehe)

A.5 Character line looks out of place, and the fender is a very awkward part. By redesigning the headlight housings (easy, since they're plastic or fiberglass), they could make easier to shape fenders.

A.6 Here's an example of false economy. By using external instead of internal hinges, they've created the problem of doors which cannot be placed flush against each other. Can you imagine how difficult it is to fit the doors like this? By using internal swing-hinges on the second door, you could allow for more variance in production models (pillars which don't line up exactly between the doors) which you could adjust to by simply adjusting the hinges.

And by having the B-pillar not show up on the outside, they can simplify its design, saving even more money.

And the windows are too deep. That's extra cost and materials that could go somewhere else... as others have shown, you can have straight windows that go into relatively flat doors close to the edges of the body. If you need more space for window channels, thicken the doors on the inside. Yes, even ANFRA can do that better.

A.7 The shutline of the rear door looks like an afterthought. It should more closely mate the rear fender guard, or they should just notch the fender guard to fit it... another example of adjusting to chassis variance.... You have the shutline first, then the fender guard is positioned by hand to match it.

A.8 While they do use the trick of putting black paint around the windows to give a floating roof, they don't line up the windows correctly. The third row window is an inch too high, the rear hatch a few inches too low. I hope to see this addressed in production models.

Another example of desigh tricks not used... they should put a curved corner at the front of the first window, and straight corners at the front of the third. It won't matter that the rest of the corners are square, as with creative use of a few round corners and black paint can make these three windows look continuous. That's the effect they wanted with the paint, but the poor alignment ruins it.

The rear end is horrible. Maybe a rear bumper with a stepboard, as well as a general realignment of the rear glass and rear lights (putting standard sized lights into a fiberglass enclosure... again, good trick employed by companies like TVR and Pagani) would help it. Leave the spare tire there... it covers up the blandness.

[size=4]Design Suggestions[/size]

So much for the criticism... here are some suggestions:

Here's a quick and simple fix... straighter fender guards, cohesive character line for the doors, better alignment between side indicator and character lines. If there's any pre-made automotive glass that can be finessed in for the windshield (Tamaraw, maybe?), things might be even better. It might cost more, yes, but it would bring in customers.

Also, a simpler grille, filled (hopefully) with better material.

I theorize suicide doors as another possible method of getting around the external hinge problem. If only the catches are on the B-pillar, then design will be simpler still.

Here's a further refinement, with a taller front fascia and a more level hood. This decreases the complexity of front fender and hood manufacture, and gives the vehicle a more butch appearance... important for the Filipino consumer. Making the vehicle look too much like an MPV will turn off those looking for a rugged work vehicle.

Still, it might even be more effective to take the top end of a Tamaraw and graft it on. It would solve a lot of design problems in one fell stroke.

------

Whew! Those are my thoughts. I'll admit, I'm both disappointed and impressed. Impressed at the amount of thought that went into some details, and disappointed that the vehicle seems to have been designed by a committee. They should just assign one person to do the design, and then the rest can argue over costing afterwards. By designing for cheapness instead of around it, they're hurting their chances at sales.

But truthfully, there is some interest in this project, as a few people on site were asking me about it. But if they can't hit that magical 300-350k price tag, and they hit 450-500k, it'll be all for naught. As I've said, Foton already sells vehicles in that price range... vehicles with properly stamped bodies and modern looks.