MVPMAP's PhUV feedback thread

[dprox]

maybe we should start on a mini-car like the chinese, instead of auv

The Tsikot design forum is considering that project, after we finish what we started in the Tsikot PhUV Design thread.
BTW, oldblue, if you want, you and foifoi05 can start conceptualizing it. Mag PMan kayo, then let us know what you come up with.

[jundogg]

WOW, the PhUV has been unleashed!

nice to read your pos and neg comments about the uv.
parang tubig at langis na di talaga mapapaghalo.
it's good kasi in case they will still improve it, they got a list of action items.

akin lang:
- primarily, they intended to target certain markets lang naman like OFWs and etc. and if im not mistaken, for public transpo use. in short, alternative or pamalit sa mga jeepneys. it doesn't mean na it will be the "super-transpo" na dapat mong makita sa Top Gear or Hi-Class Auto Shows.
- try not to compare it to Hummer, Porsche, Ferrari, and other top-grade automobiles. it's for a certain purpose lang naman kasi. They didn't built it to match up top of the line SUVs or AUVs. Pinoy tayo eh, that's what we have!
try to compare un kalesa natin sa kalesa sa european countries, diba laking pagkakaiba rin?
- nasanay lang tayong puro absorb ng imported cars. Kaya imported narin tayo mag-isip about sa design. What they came up is only from locally manufactured/produced parts. kung maganda local resources, madanda rin kakalabasan. Who knows, other countries MIGHT be impressed with phuv. remember: your trash could be other person's wealth! im not saying it's a trash ha.analogy lang. dami kasing may ayaw sa phuv eh.
- you are a customer. kung ayaw mo eh di wag mo bilhin. walang pumipilit sayo. (kahit ako di bibili, wala naman akong ganun kalaking pera eh.) one "not-so-good-looking" or average person cannot please all people that he's handsome or gorgeous. kanya kanyang taste yan. sa isang pobreng jeepney driver, he might think na na-pimp my ride na un jeep nya! magiging masaya na sya compared sa bulok at kalampaging jeep nya. hope you guys are getting my point.

to wrap up, there's a lot of room for improvement. di pa huli ang lahat. through our comments, im sure that they will re-define what a real PhUV should be. good luck sa PhUV!

[hein]

I would suggest Hein and everyone else to look for other anomalies that hasn't been noticed yet.

Sure. This is the rear view mirror that MVPMAP makes for the Toyota Innova JUV. High quality glare and shatter-resistant glass encased in ABS polymer with night adjust. Well made and elegant.



When it comes to the Filipino car, take a look....



Pathetic low-quality rearview mirror with exposed screws (of different colors). No night adjusment is included so the pinoy driver will be blinded at night. Poor guy.

How come kung Japanese ang customer ang ganda ng gawa, pag Pinoy bulok ang binibigay.

[oldblue]

me conceptualize a mini-car hehehe

why not start from a golf car. it's boxy like the Phuv. enclose it, put a small engine in it (like those on suzuki multicabs) and those cute little tires and put a limit on the speedometer with standard amenities like aircon, stereo, comfortable seats and a compartment big enough to place children's school bags.

market the car exclusively for sprouting urban communities where land is gold but everything is accessbile within 10-20 km radius. and use the slogan, " park 2 PHmini cars in one 1 parking slot" . this urban middle class has the money to spend on 250k plasma TV's. what more in a 250-300K, easy to use, easy to park, easy to maintain, light on the pocket mini-urban car.



someday it might replace the motorcycles if priced competitively.

so 1 impt thing to do is to run a survey on the million of motorcycles users in small towns and communities. arouse their desire that the car is used exclusively in urban high-rise communities.
meet some of their demands, and you've got yourself a 2nd ready-market.

The Phuv has good intentions but the problem is you can't squeeze all those benefits (multi-seater, large body, utility) in a 350k car.

who knows, the car might be exportable too coz we all know naman how cities of the future will look like. take a look at Shanghai for example.

[dprox]

me conceptualize a mini-car hehehe
...

Wow, oldblue, ang aga mo naman magdeliver. 2:53 am.
And that long post is a glaring departure from your usual one-liners.
Looks like we'll have to start that new thread soon.
You make a lot of sense. Spin doctor nga.
Antay ngayon tayo for volunteers (style and engineering enthusiasts) who will comprise your design team.

[architect]

It's a given that the design will not be up to foreign standards...

Hi niky, quick question - Am just curious. Why do you say that "it is a given the design will not be up to foreign standards?"

[drivebyshooter]

Since I posted photos of the PhUV, several people have left comments on the vehicle. Quite a number have posed some questions. I hope the following literature will address most of the questions asked.


On that note, I might as well put in my two cents worth. The PhUV, you see, is a prototype - I’ve described at as a proof of concept. It proves that we can produce a vehicle locally, and proves that we can produce it for under half a million pesos.


Yes, some of the parts looked cheap. No, the vehicle was not completely or cleanly finished. Yes, it could have benefited from quite a deal of detailing. Keep in mind thought that the vehicle presented was, like I mentioned, a prototype. It was proof that we can do this.


As the vehicle moves closer to mass production, more improvements will start coming. We can start mass-producing curved panels, fine-tune the design, and clean up those little flaws that everybody picks on.


Having said all that, I’ll shut up and leave you to read the literature on the PhUV. That, though, is posted here.

[niky]

It is given that certain things will not be possible for the PhUV team to mass produce and still meet the price target. I suppose instead of foreign standards, I should have said "big industry standards".

These things include complex curved steel body panels, curved glass, unibody construction (while there are cheap unibody vehicles, the cost of the machinery to make them is staggering), high quality molded interior panels and roofing (I was expecting the vinyl roofing, but hoping they'd have made an attempt at stitching it in, or even using plastic fasteners instead of screws... plastic fasterners aren't expensive), and bespoke headlamps and tail-lamps.

Which is why I suggested, before, that we take a look at the British and American kit car industry. Look at it as a way of producing complex shapes or mass-market looking vehicles which use cheap and abundant parts from other vehicles in unusual ways... this cuts down on cost, and gives each vehicle a unique identity.

People complain that it's a good start... (it's an okay start) and that with the limited budget, you can't expect it to be up to western standards... which is why I suggest everyone look at kit-car and body-kit builders, to see what one design-oriented person can build on a very limited budget and with creative parts sourcing. Kumbaga, an apples to apples comparison.

That's the background I approach this project from... as an avid fan of kit-car magazines and culture, I accept the necessity of some of what they did with the PhUV, but I can see other, just as cheap ways, to do the rest.

[jpdm]

MVPMAP et al.

Alam ko kasali na kayo dito sa forum na ito.

MVPMAP, I hope you will take all the criticism at heart and work for the improvement of the vehicle.

Our country is dying economically because our local industries our dying (pls. check NSCB, NEDA, DTI for the data). PHUV, do not falter, improve and you will be the salvation of our dying auto industry.

The industrialization and economic development of our country hinge on a dynamic engineering and technology industry. Call centers, assembly industry, spa and cell phone texting will not bring us to NIC status. The auto industry is one of the key in increasing our productive capacity and stature in world economic competitiveness.

It should be noted, the liberalization of the Philippine market massacred emassed local businesses by foreign juggernaut--by foreign companies.
In the local auto industry, not a single local (local brand that is)company earns. Toyota, Honda, Ford, Mitsubishi and Isuzu reign supreme.

More bad news, These foreign companies just import CBU (if they are CKDs---less that 40%local content). Local entrepreneurs, managers, engineers, production workers--do they really earn? A big NO.

They export autos and auto parts daw at kumikita local industry? Talaga? No way! Kaya nga humihingi na ng saklolo ang MVPMAP e!

Banatan tayo ng Banatan sa forum na ito, palagay ko tatawa-tawa lang ang foreign principals ng mga foreign car manufacturers dito na ang pangalan ay CAMPI. Kasi, they don't need to advertise or defend there market here, they can have it for free.

Di nyo ba napapansin, mga Tsikoteers, tahimik ang CAMPI--Chamber of Automotive Manufacturers of the Philippines--kasi mga top honcho nyan either Hapon, Amerikano, Koreano. They are happy because, by directly and indirectly endorsing foreign marque by badmouthing the PHUV as trash and junk, inadvertedly, they are assured of their dominance of the Philippine market (Mazda of Japan, niloko mo ang kalahi kong Francisco Motors-Anfra... sana di ka bumenta.....).

Economic diplomacy and brinkmanship is employed by most country (in behalf of their local business groups---for national interests) to gain a foothold of another country's market mainly because of economic reason (recently,binenta na naman natin sarili natin sa Korea dahil sa incompetence ng mga government officials natin). With the way things are going now in this thread, foreign auto companies do not need anymore to lobby and their government to back them up --because they have local agents-pro bono-already.

Common guys, before dismissing again this idea as an ad nauseum nationalistic posturing--its nationalism that drives these foreign companies to global heights (the G7 earns trillions of dollars from the remitted profits of their TNCs and MNCs-symbols of their global economic power. i.e. GM/Ford/Coca-cola,USA: Toyota/Sony/NEC, Japan: Total France: Shell, Unilever, UK: BASF/ Bayer/Daimler-Benz/BMW, Germany. di ba pamilyar sa atin?dominated nila Philippine market) !

Sabi ng taga MVPMAP, they are begging CAMPI to use more local materials, ayaw ng CAMPI kasi (to hell they care about the local labor, local industries and development of the local auto industry) di kikita mga boss nila sa Japan, Korea, US.

MVPMAP, work hard, I know you can do it. Produce a better model with good workmanship. introduce improvements suggested by Tsikoteers, alam ko, baka kahit hanep mamintas yung iba---pag inayos nyo PHUV nyo at i-integrate ang suggested design nila--baka-ma-engano nyo silang bumili. Taga nyo sa bato may bibili nyan, ayusin nyo lang. may kilala na akong pipila, grupo yun, yung target market nyo.

DREAMCO, ayusin nyo naman PHUV. Ayokong mag-isip masama pero, di kaya below par yun PHUV dahil ayaw nyong makipagcompete PHUV sa Foton ng Chinese principals nyo?

Francisco Motors-Anfra, Asan na PHUV model nyo? Sana naman mas maganda, kasi mas bihasa kayo kaysa DREAMCO.

NORKIS OF CEBU-our best bet so far! Improve your Legacy first and Multicab.Kasi lalong bebenta yan. Enter into a joint venture with Daihatsu (rebarging) and develop your own kei car and mini-trucks. May niche na naman kayo e.

AMC-ALANA, gawa kayo version ng PHUV, ayos kasi Hummer nyo.

Local AUv assemblers, mag-merge naman kayo! di puro kanya-kanya.

MVPMAP, humingi kayo discount sa engines at transmission gawa ng FOrd Mitsubishi at Toyota dito para naman may pakinabang tayong mga Pinoy sa mga yan. Puro na lang sila ang kumakabig.

Paalala lang, MVPMAP, DREAMCO, FMC-Anfra at iba pang gustong magsimula ng PHUV,mahirap na bansa man tayo, we Filipinos have already a good idea of what is a quality product (tulad ng auto).

Remember, globalization, ICT and the OFW phenomenon have increased the sophistication of Filipinos--kahit driver o operator ng PUV/FX yan, kasi once upon a time nag-abroad yan. Take note, I still believe that those who criticize the PHUV are nationalistic, MVPMAP et al, I think you can easily turn them into PHUV admirers as long as you do not sacrifice the quality of your product.

There is a WAR out there. AND IT IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. MVPMAP, DREAMCO, FRANCISCO MOTORS-ANFRA, AMD MOTORS, MD JUAN, SARAO, NORKIS-LEGACY, CAVITE-PAMPANGA-ILOILO-CEBU ASSEMBLERS--YOU ARE AGAINST FOREIGN GIANTS WITH THE TECHNOLOGY, CLOUT AND RESOURCES---compete using the BUSINESS MODEL OF FOREIGN GIANT-BUSTERS---JOLLIBEE ( FASTFOOD), SAN MIGUEL (BEER-LIQUOR, ICE CREAM, FOOD), HORTALEZA-SPLASH (BEAUTY PRODUCTS),LIWAYWAY-OISHI (CEREALS), URC (JACK AND JILL, C2 PHENOMENON) AND CONCEPCION INDUSTRIES (CONDURA)---AFFORDABILITY, CATERS TO LOCAL TASTE/NEED AND BEST OF ALL WORLD-CLASS QUALITY.

The GLOBAL AUTO INDUSTRY IS VERY COMPETITIVE. THERE ARE A THOUSAND OF MODELS from hundreds of auto companies OUT THERE. YOU CRIMP (with design, innovation) at not so competitive price,You die. You come up with autos with superb quality at less price, You WIN. Look what the japanese and now the Koreans have done to North America, European, Asian market. They broke it open.

Remember what SUn TZU said ( from his treatise, Art of War):

If you know the enemy and know your self, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

I rest my case. time to work.

[architect]

It is given that certain things will not be possible for the PhUV team to mass produce and still meet the price target. I suppose instead of foreign standards, I should have said "big industry standards".

Thanks for the clarification. I was just a bit bemused when I read the part where you said it is a given the design will not be…because if the discussion is purely re design, I would argue strongly Filipino (automotive) designers can and are at par with the rest of the world. Of course, the realization of great designs is another matter. And in the real world, as you clarified, limitations do exist that will certainly preclude specific design aspects or features.

Which is why I suggested, before, that we take a look at the British and American kit car industry. Look at it as a way of producing complex shapes or mass-market looking vehicles which use cheap and abundant parts from other vehicles in unusual ways... this cuts down on cost, and gives each vehicle a unique identity.

That's the background I approach this project from... as an avid fan of kit-car magazines and culture, I accept the necessity of some of what they did with the PhUV, but I can see other, just as cheap ways, to do the rest.

When I was still living in the States, I used to subscribe to two kit car general magazines – not sure about their names now, but I think one is Kit Car and the other one is Petersen’s Kit Car. Once in a while I would also buy off the stand specific magazines, such as those on Shelby’s Cobra. There is a wealth of information in those publications, a lot of which are applicable to the PhUV project.

[niky]

Yup. In fact, there's tons of stuff available online, too.

[hein]

Take a look at the ARIEL ATOM. Look at how well it is put together, down to the tiniest details. This is a tiny car project from the UK that is manufactiured in an improvised country barn. The total number of employees: 8.

The quality and performance of this homemade project was so impressive (it out-accelerates a million dolllar FERRARI ENZO) that the super car collector JAY LENO had one specially shipped to California.

The MVPMAP has THOUSANDS of employees. The PHUV was supposed to be launched first week of April and was delayed for two months. Was it so hard for someone to do a QUALITY CHECK?

I was in the vehicle for about 20 MINUTES taking pics and I was able to spot a good number of design, material and workmanship flaws. Pati si GMA nakita yung mga kalawang.

That is what's sorely lacking with the MVPMAP. This is a project that was supposed to showcase the best we can do. Show us a little diligence in quality control before we even shell out a penny for your PHUV.

[ogpro]

Recycle, yes... but use items without stripping the rust? No.

Yes, it was a rush job, but it should have been possible to work a little more on the finishing. Remember, this is a presentation to the public. It's a good thing the vehicle was behind ropes on the second day, because the rust and finish on the interior would not have impressed them.

The point of the prototype is to convince the government and the public that the PhUV is a viable purchase option and has the potential for commercial success. It's a given that the design will not be up to foreign standards, but we should expect workmanship to be top-notch.

They should reset the timetable to make time for a final development prototype. If they still plan to go full-steam before the end of this year, they'll need to produce a newer prototype to generate more positive buzz and to ensure sales.

Besides a full-bodied AUV-alternative, the MVPMAP should also plan for a cargo version, or a side-bench type vehicle.

-----

Criticism is not a bad thing. It helps to to discuss these problems, and to figure out those that can be fixed, and those that can't. Even if you think a problem can't be fixed within the budget, maybe an outsider's viewpoint could help show a different way of tackling it.

Keep it coming people.

I have a theory on this. I have a feeling this mvpmap did to this proto what is done to a lot of philippine projects. They underbudgeted it.

The development guys did the best they can with what little they were given to work with. Tinipid kasi. Yan ang problema, they didn't believe in the project enough to give it the budget it deserved. I've seen this happen a lot. None of the makers wanted to spend the money for it. They should have pooled their resources properly and at least pay for a good design team with the smarts to know what the public will want and what details will affect public perception. A design team who is creative enough to source the right parts for good pricing, and one who can MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. Seems they didn't do that. I know our Tsikot team is much more resourceful.

[chua_riwap]

[
I was in the vehicle for about 20 MINUTES taking pics and I was able to spot a good number of design, material and workmanship flaws. Pati si GMA nakita yung mga kalawang.

That is what's sorely lacking with the MVPMAP. This is a project that was supposed to showcase the best we can do. Show us a little diligence in quality control before we even shell out a penny for your PHUV.

Oo nga naman......kahit pa prototype yan. Kumbaga yung naka-display, dapat "showroom quality" yung unit. Napaka-evident yung rust sa shift stick. Sana naman, pinasadahan man lang ng konting itim na pintura yung stick, para maitago yung kalawang. Bumisita pa naman si GMA. He-he!

[dprox]

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[dprox]

Take a look at the ARIEL ATOM. Look at how well it is put together, down to the tiniest details. This is a tiny car project from the UK that is manufactiured in an improvised country barn. The total number of employees: 8.
The quality and performance of this homemade project was so impressive (it out-accelerates a million dolllar FERRARI ENZO) that the super car collector JAY LENO had one specially shipped to California.
The MVPMAP has THOUSANDS of employees. The PHUV was supposed to be launched first week of April and was delayed for two months. Was it so hard for someone to do a QUALITY CHECK?
I was in the vehicle for about 20 MINUTES taking pics and I was able to spot a good number of design, material and workmanship flaws. Pati si GMA nakita yung mga kalawang.
That is what's sorely lacking with the MVPMAP. This is a project that was supposed to showcase the best we can do. Show us a little diligence in quality control before we even shell out a penny for your PHUV.

Surprise! Now I agree totally with hein!
And let me add that maybe parts suppliers should leave it to competent fabricators to do the build. The parts are never bigger than the whole.
Further to that, aside from having due competence, fabrication team members should be cross-trained in each other's line of specialization.
Lastly, give them appropriate equipment naman!

[orly_andico]

Surprise! Now I agree totally with hein!
And let me add that maybe parts suppliers should leave it to competent fabricators to do the build. The parts are never bigger than the whole.
Further to that, aside from having due competence, fabrication team members should be cross-trained in each other's line of specialization.
Lastly, give them appropriate equipment naman!

BUT... the Ariel Atom is a "cost no object" design. Sure it uses off-the-shelf parts, but it requires a lot of man-hours from highly-motivated, highly-paid engineers and craftsmen to make every one.

[dprox]

BUT... the Ariel Atom is a "cost no object" design. Sure it uses off-the-shelf parts, but it requires a lot of man-hours from highly-motivated, highly-paid engineers and craftsmen to make every one.

Korek ka dyan, orly. But my understanding of hein's post was limited to prototyping, not mass production.

A vehicle that is formally "launched" is usually a concept vehicle. Now concept vehicles, no matter how magnificent are test specimens floated to examine or provoke public interest. Launched concept vehicles are an attempt to define the public expectation. If ever it sees production, the quality of each unit should not be less than what was presented at launch.
Be it a concept vehicle, it has to have a modicum of due process and craftsmanship. IMHO, the implied minimum standard set by the MVPMAP in their launched PhUV is too low for the announced price.

Ogpro was right in saying it was underbudgeted. I suspect MVPMAP firms who have committments to bigboy carmakers gave little or no support. It's really a question of loyalty and gumption.
* Parts firms loyal to bigboys who could take the influx of CBUs couldn't care less about making their own car.
* Parts firms bound to suffer, but had no gumption are either dying or dead.
* Parts firms bound to suffer, but have the urge to survive - these are the ones who, for pragmatic reasons have decided to jumpstart their own carmaking program.
* Firms who are stable, but have joined the carmaking bandwagon are the risk-takers and the true patriots who did it for love of country.

This is just my viewpoint as an outsider looking in. MVPMAP is no monolith.

[jpdm]

I took this from Philippine Tribune. Its horrible. I hope we can still rally people to support the up and coming Tsikot PHUV, an improved MVPMAP PHUV and even the newly-improved CHOK. These are the hope of reviving our dying motor industry. The lack of government support resulted to this:

Bike maker Norkis closes due to flood of imports 06/18/2007
The entry of cheap motorbikes has forced one of the local pioneers to cease operations after the Cebu City-based Norkis Trading Co. (NTC) filed a notice to stop production and assembly operations of Yamaha motorcycles before the Department of Labor and Employment (DoLE).
NTC managing head for human resources management and development Charito Calumpang informed DoLE 7 Director Elias Cayanong that about 364 permanent executives and rank-and-file employees were offered early retirement packages.

More army of unemployed in our country. Di pa kasama dito yung indirectly unemployed. More economic crimes in the area?

[drey]

tapos kung naka ban na lahat... meron pa din makakalusot...

grrr... Our government ang dapat mahiya sa tinatanggap nilang kababalaghan.

Tapos magrarason na magugutom ang pamilya... Hoy! may mamamatay na pamilya noh! Wag nyo kaya isipin rin ang sarili mong pamilya... Dapat walang damay ang iba. WHat is it for a man to inherit everything yet loses his soul...

Naks... safeorigin, preacher mode nanaman ako... hehehe