Electric Vios

[uls]

Yup, in a market economy its always the financial cost first.

Interesting tidbit: one of the world's top billionaires, Warren Buffet, who's known to be the most astute longterm investor, bought into BYD, China's biggest electric battery manufacturer. This billionaire knows where the smart investment is.

And I suspect that BYD is the Chinese manufacturer that recently met with our DOE on a possible investment in the country...

dude, that's 2008 news. I know Warren Buffett invested in BYD

he bought a 10% stake for $230,000,000

update kita on what's happening to BYD

BYD's growth has diminished significantly since then

its share price has fallen from a peak of $85 in October 2009 to $33 today

since the initial investment in 2008, Berkshire Hathaway has not increased its investment in BYD

BYD January 2011 car sales fell 15% compared to a year ago

BYD is now the weakest HK-listed China automaker

[tidus1203]

One problem with hydrogen is that, even though hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, free (not locked/bonded with other elements), elemental hydrogen is relatively rare on Earth. Most hydrogen being used commercially/industrially is via reforming of natural gas (which leads you back to fossil fuel dependency) or electrolysis of water - which requires electricity. So unless another method of mass-producing hydrogen is discovered (there has been some research on the use of algae to produce hydrogen), hydrogen will not be able to answer the energy requirements of our future transportation.

Yes unfortunately these are some obstacles in generating hydrogen en masse... For me though even if its more costly than battery based electric, the fact that its so similar to today's gas engines appeals to me a lot...

The automobile has given us mobility and the electrification of the automobile somehow made us go backwards cause we are now less mobile than before when were using petrol/diesel...

Regarding the iQ, malamang di yan pupunta dito. There is another small car which won't make our way which I like and that is the Ford Ka...

[uls]

Cause many people think oil companies will lose business when we all use electric while in fact oil companies are the leaders of research in alternative energy...

yun na nga eh

di nila naisip oil companies spend a lot of money on alt energy R&D

who will be the biggest alt energy companies in the future?

the oil companies

reminder lang po -- ang tawag sa business sector ng ExxonMobil, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Total SA is the ENERGY SECTOR

the oil companies are not going away

they're not gonna die when oil wells dry up

they'll evolve

those tiny alt energy dreamers think they can take over when the oil companies die?

the oil companies have something the dreamers don't have -- CAPITAL

[anonemus]

dude, that's 2008 news. I know Warren Buffett invested in BYD

he bought a 10% stake for $230,000,000

update kita on what's happening to BYD

BYD's growth has diminished significantly since then

its share price has fallen from a peak of $85 in October 2009 to $33 today

since the initial investment in 2008, Berkshire Hathaway has not increased its investment in BYD

BYD January 2011 car sales fell 15% compared to a year ago

BYD is now the weakest HK-listed China automaker

OT: When Warren invests, he doesn't look at stock prices, he considers a company's long term return. This is why Berkshire Hathaway's investment in a company isn't done very regularly. It doesn't matter in the short term if BYD's stocks plummet as this is short-term for B-H; para sa B-H, what they look out for is the performance 5-10 years down the road.

Last year, even Daimler AG has started to do a joint venture with BYD. Now this is another longterm investment...

http://chinaautoweb.com/2010/05/byd-...joint-venture/

But really, the point here is that from a purely business perspective (without the pro-environment ek-ek), electric car production is viable...

[tidus1203]

Regarding Berkshire Hathaway, yes they made successful investments over the years but they are not perfect take for example BH's investments in US Air, Dexter Shoes, General Re so they do make blunders as well... Who knows BYD can be one of those...

[anonemus]

yun na nga eh

di nila naisip oil companies spend a lot of money on alt energy R&D

who will be the biggest alt energy companies in the future?

the oil companies

reminder lang po -- ang tawag sa business sector ng ExxonMobil, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Total SA is the ENERGY SECTOR

the oil companies are not going away

they're not gonna die when oil wells dry up

they'll evolve

those tiny alt energy dreamers think they can take over when the oil companies die?

the oil companies have something the dreamers don't have -- CAPITAL

Oh for sure they will adapt. This is why they're pushing for hydrogen even though this is not necessarily what's good for the consumers as various retorts on hydrogen fuel on this thread have been posted.

As for CAPITAL, I'm curious 5-10 years from now whether San Miguel will have more stocks in Petron or power generation/distribution companies here in the country...

[uls]

Last year, even Daimler AG has started to do a joint venture with BYD. Now this is another longterm investment...

http://chinaautoweb.com/2010/05/byd-...joint-venture/

But really, the point here is that from a purely business perspective (without the pro-environment ek-ek), electric car production is viable...

and here is their product



says the rollout will be in 2013

also says the design is not final

it better be not final. it's damn ugly

[uls]

Regarding Berkshire Hathaway, yes they made successful investments over the years but they are not perfect take for example BH's investments in US Air, Dexter Shoes, General Re so they do make blunders as well... Who knows BYD can be one of those...

yep, Buffett may be good, but he still makes bad bets

[umi001]

Yes unfortunately these are some obstacles in generating hydrogen en masse... For me though even if its more costly than battery based electric, the fact that its so similar to today's gas engines appeals to me a lot...

The automobile has given us mobility and the electrification of the automobile somehow made us go backwards cause we are now less mobile than before when were using petrol/diesel...

Regarding the iQ, malamang di yan pupunta dito. There is another small car which won't make our way which I like and that is the Ford Ka...

Agree with you that long-term, hydrogen is a more plausible alternative, in that current technology and infrastructure, as well as driving habits, would be a lot easier to adapt to a hydrogen-based fuel-replacement vs. electric.

Sayang nga that the car companies aren't bringing in more of their small cars into the Philippines - you'd think that with gas prices being so high, the small roads and tight parking spaces, and of course the relatively lower buying capability income-wise, that these cars would be the first thing that would sell. We really are a wasteland compared to western countries - when I was working in the UK, you'd see Nissan Micras, Mitsubishi Colts, Smart ForTwos and ForFours, Renault Clios, Fiat 500s, Toyota Aygos, Ford Kas and other small cars all over the place.

[uls]

Oh for sure they will adapt. This is why they're pushing for hydrogen even though this is not necessarily what's good for the consumers as various retorts on hydrogen fuel on this thread have been posted.

As for CAPITAL, I'm curious 5-10 years from now whether San Miguel will have more stocks in Petron or power generation/distribution companies here in the country...

in less than 5 years, SMC will probably own most of Petron

[uls]

Sayang nga that the car companies aren't bringing in more of their small cars into the Philippines - you'd think that with gas prices being so high, the small roads and tight parking spaces, and of course the relatively lower buying capability income-wise, that these cars would be the first thing that would sell. We really are a wasteland compared to western countries - when I was working in the UK, you'd see Nissan Micras, Mitsubishi Colts, Smart ForTwos and ForFours, Renault Clios, Fiat 500s, Toyota Aygos, Ford Kas and other small cars all over the place.

glad you brought that up

the reason for the very limited variety of cars sold here is coz CAMPI limits our choices

not only will they not offer us more choices, CAMPI (thru govt lobbying) prevents independent car importers from making more choices available to us

kung ano sa tingin nila magiging mabenta, yan lang ibebenta nila

they will not assemble or bring in cars that won't sell

[ghosthunter]

Sayang nga that the car companies aren't bringing in more of their small cars into the Philippines - you'd think that with gas prices being so high, the small roads and tight parking spaces, and of course the relatively lower buying capability income-wise, that these cars would be the first thing that would sell. We really are a wasteland compared to western countries - when I was working in the UK, you'd see Nissan Micras, Mitsubishi Colts, Smart ForTwos and ForFours, Renault Clios, Fiat 500s, Toyota Aygos, Ford Kas and other small cars all over the place.

The answer is obvious. Our car market is simply too small. With such a small market, car companies can not support many car models.

In the UK, the car market is huge since it also includes the entire european market which is potentially millions of units.

[tidus1203]

I don't think we are ready to accept cars that small... And to add on ghosthunter's point small cars have low profit margins... In a small market like this, you need greater margins so the business can be sustained... In bigger markets where volume is greater, smaller margin cars could be viable as long as the volume is there...

[anonemus]

Regarding Berkshire Hathaway, yes they made successful investments over the years but they are not perfect take for example BH's investments in US Air, Dexter Shoes, General Re so they do make blunders as well... Who knows BYD can be one of those...

No company's perfect but HB's batting average is better than the Dow average since the 60s.

GM invested $17M into a battery tech company as well
http://smartenergynews.net/2011/02/0...es-17-million/

And the other manufacturers are scrambling to follow suit

and here is their product



says the rollout will be in 2013

also says the design is not final

it better be not final. it's damn ugly

Not only damn ugly but BUTT ugly! But really, BYD's crown jewel is their battery tech, not cars. (Sidenote: first the Japs dominated the market, then now the Koreans are coming in strong. In the future, the Chinese and Indians might follow suit if the others haven't learned the lesson. This is also one reason why VW, Ford, Daimler and others are partnering with Chinese companies...

in less than 5 years, SMC will probably own most of Petron

Most probably, but SMC has recognized that power, infra and mining are the future. They're about to float P2B bonds soon...

San Miguel Corp. will use proceeds from what could be the country’s biggest share sale to fund acquisitions aimed at deepening its exposure in high growth power and infrastructure sectors, its president said.

http://www.malaya.com.ph/feb16/busi8.html

[uls]

dude, RE electric car batteries, this discussion isnt new

i posted this on Jan. 09, 2010

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showt...=38959&page=32

electric car battery manufacturers:

A123Systems (US) --lithium ion

Altairnano (US) -- lithium titanate

Axeon (UK, EU) -- lithium ion

E-One Moli Energy (Taiwan) -- lithium-ion

Electrovaya (Canada) -- lithium-ion

EnerDel (US) -- lithium-ion

NEC

Panasonic EV Energy Co

Sanyo

Valence Technology (US) -- lithium ion

LG Chem

SB LiMotive (SK/Germany) -- lithium-ion

[uls]

Most probably, but SMC has recognized that power, infra and mining are the future. They're about to float P2B bonds soon...

because SMC people are rational

unlike conspiracy theorists who think oil companies are afraid of alt energy and are doing everything they can to stop the rise of alt energy

--

the world will depend on crude oil for energy for many many more years

oil companies will drill holes in the ground for many more years to come

[anonemus]

BYD's first plug-in hybrid car to be sold in the US is the F3DM. Parang 2007 Corolla.





http://www.plugincars.com/first-driv...id-106831.html

[uls]

^^^

you might be interested in this:

2011 greenest cars:

http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_greenest.htm

here's how they rate the vehicles:

http://www.greenercars.org/greenbook_method.htm

LEV, ULEV, SULEV, PZEV and stuff

http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_byclass.htm

[uls]

how a natural gas vehicle can be greener than electric?

they took into consideration the environmental impact of electricity production by power plants, battery manufacturing and disposal

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/gree...chevrolet.html

Greenest cars: natural gas Honda Civic GX, Nissan Leaf electric and, just barely, Chevrolet Volt
February 15, 2011 | 12:25 pm

For a list of the greenest 2011 model-year vehicles, there sure are a lot of traditional gasoline engines among the top 12 cars ranked by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.

The council's 14th annual ratings of the most eco-friendly cars on the market include internal combustion models such as the Smart Fortwo, the Ford Fiesta and the Hyundai Elantra.

The natural gas-powered Honda Civic GX topped the list for an eighth straight year, with a score of 54, followed by the new all-electric Nissan Leaf. Other vehicles considered to be the greenest of the crop included the hybrid Toyota Prius and the hybrid electric Chevrolet Volt, which squeaked into the last spot.

The electric version of the Smart Fortwo would have pulled in a score of 60, but with only 250 units of the 2011 model available in the U.S. (and then only on a trial basis), the car didn't meet sales requirements for the list.

"Vehicles running on electricity emit nothing from the tailpipe, but their 'upstream' emissions can be substantial, depending on where they're charged," said Therese Langer, the organization's director. "As U.S. power generation becomes cleaner, these vehicles' scores will rise."

The battery manufacturing and disposal processes -– which can be emissions-laden and toxic -– were also factored into the calculations and knocked electricity-dependent vehicles down a few rungs.

Diesel vehicles missed out entirely. Other talked-about cars, such as the electric Tesla Roadster, didn't make the cut.

[anonemus]

thanks for the links, sir uls!

Actually, various studies have shown that even when the upstream sources is 'polluted', its still 30-40% less polluting than fossil fuel cars + refineries...