Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[niky]

*sigh*

No matter how efficient you make a process, there is no beating entrophy. Simply this:

You take 100 energy units of sunlight/minerals/water
That makes, say 40 energy units of plant matter
Which, when it dies, decomposes and becomes 5 energy units of oil (over millions of years, with God knows how much energy spent in pressurizing and decomposing the plant matter)

To dig up and refine that 5 energy units of oil, costs us 1-2 energy units (this gets higher as oil becomes harder to find, or if we have to process oil shale to get oil).

Thus, 5 units of oil, for all that power used. BUT, we humans only spent ONE unit to extract it. Thus, we get 5 for 1. Economical.

Now take water.

5 units of energy to electrolyze water
5 units of energy needed to compress it so it can be transported
3 units of energy produced from burning that water

Much more efficient, probably, but we spent 10 units of energy to get a measly 3 units, thus 3 for 10? It doesn't add up.

It would be a different story if the energy were solar or hydroelectric... but to claim that it could be cost-effective if powered by the car is misleading.

The only way hydrogen can become economical is as a method of storing and transporting energy from solar-electric plants... but it's a toss up whether hydrogen fuel-cells or a different kind of battery are more space and weight efficient at storing energy... traditional compressed hydrogen has a low energy/volume density, and fuel-cells cost a hell of a lot of money (but then, so do new-tech batteries).

(and no, the calculations aren't accurate, but that's the way things really are.)

[niky]

Just read the precis... looked up the Klein website... they're claiming to have "invented" or "discovered" a new form of hydrogen-oxygen molecule... 1st grade chemistry folks... only two molecules... water, peroxide. No other combos. This is one of the oldest scams in the book... almost as old as the "Khaos" thingy...

[rsnald]

hanggat di nadidiskubre and cold fusion... or makaimbento ng makina na gagamit ng deuterium water (at makagawa ng murang process para mag generate ng deuterium water) ... panaginip lang ang paggamit ng tubig na fuel sa sasakyan... give it another half century or so... baka sakali maimbento din yan

[yebo]

there is an electrolysis process that produces more H2 than standard electrolysis. instead of a steady flow of electric current through 2 electrodes the flow is alternating between zero and a maximum, at a certain frequency (around 23kHz), plus the addition of heat (absorbed from the atmosphere). in some systems the unit has a circuit that alternates the system from the on cycle and off cycle to allow the water electrolyte solution to absorb heat from the atmosphere.

if standard electrolysis produces 1 unit of H2 per unit X of electric power, this electrolysis can produce, from what i read, up to 23+ units of H2 per same X units of electric power. hanapin ko ulit yung website then post ko dito.

but my previous post remains the same!
H2O = water
HOH = hydrogen peroxide
HHO = scam

[Chip]

baka yung next scam nito ay

OHH = new alternative fuel
:D

[CoDer]

Just as I expected. Hehehee...

I can't say the technology is viable the same way I can't say that it is a scam. Too early to judge the technology.

I can't even have the guts to explain it by just reading some chemistry books.

Let's wait and see people. stick with your opinion, don't explain it.

[theveed]

Do a research on Brown Gas...

This is not new news, and it doesn't work in practical applications.

It takes energy from the car's battery, uses it to convert water to H2 and O2, and burns that in the engine. It's just a much less efficient version of an electric car.

However, if you generate hydrogen and mix a small amount of it with the car's gasoline in the engine, the hydrogen can make the gas burn much hotter, which results in a more efficient propulsion system. Basically, on every stroke of the engine, there is a small amount of unburned gasoline. Adding hydrogen burns what would otherwise not be burned.

At the end of the day, it is NOT a water powered vehicle.

Let's wait and see people. stick with your opinion, don't explain it.

3 words... and a smiley

Freedom

Of

Speech

:D

[CoDer]

3 words... and a smiley

Freedom

Of

Speech

:D

Hehehehe... you got me there.

[theveed]

I think we're arguing about different issues here... This guy didn't claim to have invented a water powered machine... But some sort of an additive process to help gasoline producing a hybrid automobile.

From a chemistry forum...

Two items:

1) I haven't thoroughly read all the articles, but if this guy invented a non-electrolysis catalyst that produces H2 and 02 from water, he might have something.

2) The water would need to be very clean- no minerals, no disolved solids. That's not exactly dirt cheap, and would add to the cost.

I think what they did was apply his h2/o2 burning torch machine to an automobile, and it uses electrolysis.

First law of thermodynamics: You can't create energy. You can only move and store it.

Second Law: (in practical, simplified terms): You will always have energy losses.

You can't win, you can't break even.

So there's no way that the buring of the H2/O2 mixture can produce enough energy to move the car (massive mechanical energy loss), return to its original state of 'water fuel' AND produce enough electricity (via an alternator) to power the next round of electrolysis.

IF he did that, he deserves the next 400 Nobel Prizes.

Also, the "inventor" didn't claim he discovered a new power source... He just found a more efficient electrolosis method...

So in essense, it's the same "invention" as these:

www.waterfuelconverters.com
www.savefuel.ca
www.hydrogen-boost.com

Just more efficient.

[theveed]

Oh, this is from his website

http://hytechapps.com/applications/HHOS.htm

The Hybrid Hydrogen Oxygen System ("HHOS") can generate sufficient Aquygen™ Gas to enrich a vehicle's traditional fuel supply (gasoline or diesel) so that a net power increase in engine horsepower ("HP") occurs. In the prototype vehicle, it has been estimated that the heavy-duty alternator requires approximately 4 HP of the stock engine's base power load. It has been estimated that the increased energy release of the combustion process utilizing the Aquygen™ Gas enrichment resulted in a net 17 HP gain.

The HHOS is evolutionary, not revolutionary, as it utilizes the existing refueling infrastructure (gas and diesel stations) and can be the transitional between fossil fueled vehicles of today and the fuel cell vehicles of the future.

One question I do have is how pure does the water have to be?