Water as Fuel / HHO Technology [Merged Threads]

[artnesmith]

So is this the time I should go buy the popcorn? :popcorn:

Sounds like a good idea to me!

[ehnriko]

I'll have one myself. :popcorn:

[ehnriko]

Intermission time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-wN0nrW83k"]YouTube[/ame]

[Phoenix67]

.....
If you take a vehicle getting 30 MPG and increase mileage 10%, just as an example, in 25,000 miles this car saves 83 gallons of fuel. Not very impressive is it? But take a vehicle getting 10 MPG the 10% raises mileage to 10.1 MPG average. Doesn't sound like much does it? This equates to a savings of 250 gallons in 25,000 miles of driving...

I really love to believe this... but please show us a scientific proof that it will produce the 10% savings at least and I will be a full believer too.

[dvldoc]

There's been over 7 years of HHO postings and there is no proof yet so don't hold your breath, All you get is youtube videos and testimonials and fake or non-scientific testing.

Here's a good study, (A REAL ONE) done by Chrysler that will also show you how emissions are actually reduced from a certain something being injected.

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~rutla...00-01-2938.pdf

Now try a search for HHO and you will find not one legitimate research paper by any major corporation just a bunch of links to sites selling or promoting it. There is not so much as 1 university in the U.S that has wasted time with putting out a paper on this mess.

In fact there was a 1 million dollar challenge that was out for over 3 years for anyone to provide proof it had any real effects, Guess what nobody steppe up to claim the prize.

In fact you cannot find one local, federal, or state study let alone any college in the entire United states that has published a paper on HHO. That alone should make anyone think.

[ehnriko]

The scientific method is a way to ask and answer scientific questions by making observations and doing experiments. :cat:

The steps of the scientific method are to::fly:

1. Ask a Question {Does HHO enhancement work?}
2. Do Background Research (Google it}
3. Construct a Hypothesis (If I make one according to this ebook... and make good mmw and attach it to this vehicle will it work???}
4. Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment (Mileage Test after doing voltage drop tests, vacuum test, etc.}
5. Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion {plot a graph of runs and results with a baseline and compare to the enhanced runs}
6. Communicate Your Results {post it in youtube and discuss with other like minded or even skeptical - but constructive thinkers in cyberspace - this is now the modern and quick approach}

It is important for your experiment to be a fair test. A "fair test" occurs when you change only one factor (variable) and keep all other conditions the same.

What is a Scientist?... "A KEEN OBSERVER" - nothing to do with Naysaying..

LIKE WHAT THIS UNIVERSITY IN MADISSON civil and environmental engineering professor Marc Anderson’s section of InterEngineering 160.
.................................................. .................................................. ....



Here's the link: http://www.engr.wisc.edu/alumni/pers...reenmoped.html

Going green, one moped at a time


A VESPA SCOOTER is a scooter with a history—it’s credited as the affordable form of mass transportation that reignited Italy’s post-World War II economy. The scooter’s unique, timeless design makes it the “Rolls Royce” of scooters, an heirloom that can last 20 years in the care of a faithful owner.

Yet, even for a Vespa, there’s room for improvement, and 16 UW-Madison engineering students spent fall 2008 figuring out how to make the already environmentally friendly Vespa even more green.

While enrolled in civil and environmental engineering professor Marc Anderson’s section of InterEngineering 160, Introduction to Engineering, the students designed, built and tested a hydrogen-based system that ultimately reduced the amount of gasoline necessary to run a Vespa moped by 10 percent. The system is based on electrolysis, the process of splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen via an electrical charge.

“As freshmen, they’re just starting to get used to things, and I usually pick out projects that are difficult so they’ll learn a lot,” says Anderson, adding the project offered exposure to mechanical, environmental, electrochemical, construction, and materials science engineering.

The students experimented on a yellow 50-cc steel-body Vespa moped provided at a substantial discount by Jeff Dunn, the owner of Vespa Madison at Dunn’s Import in Middleton. While the bike already averages 90 miles to a gallon of gasoline, Dunn says even Vespa needs to do better environmentally, and he’s more than willing to help the students.

“I think what they’re doing is very exciting. I believe wholeheartedly that it’s good for Vespa,” he says.

The students divided their work into three components: the electrolysis device, the battery and the engine. For the electrolysis device, they designed rectangular electrodes to split the water using carbon plates coated with a nanoparticle thin film Anderson developed. They set the plates inside a container called an electrolyzer, which they positioned near the moped engine beneath the driver’s seat. The electrodes are powered by a charge from the moped’s alternator and separate the water into oxygen and hydrogen, funneling the hydrogen directly to the engine’s cylinder via a stainless steel tube.

Once in the engine, the hydrogen produces a more complete combustion, according to Anderson, which means the engine more efficiently uses the fuel.

The electrolyzer system could, in addition to reducing the amount of gasoline necessary, also reduce moped emissions. While the students did not have time to test emissions levels their system produced, Anderson anticipates the more complete combustion caused by hydrogen in the engine would make the moped run cleaner. From here, the electrolyzer system may benefit the UW-Madison vehicle teams, which frequently experiment with hybrid vehicle technologies. In fact, Mechanical Engineering Faculty Associate Glenn Bower, who oversees the vehicle teams, offered additional advice and support to the moped project.

Not all college freshmen delve into their majors via practical, hands-on projects in their first semester on campus, and the experience has been valuable for mechanical engineering freshman Steven Burbach. “The project was very cutting-edge—we weren’t building things that had already been done, and I really appreciate Professor Anderson’s willingness to trust us with this,” he says. “Engineering isn’t just sitting at a desk. It’s getting out there, tackling real-world problems.”
:smoke:

[ehnriko]

The science behind HHO is well documented. In 1974, Houseman and Cerini of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), California Institute of Technology (CIT), prepared a report for the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) entitled “On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine”.

Also in 1974 at JPL, CIT, Hoehn and Dowy produced a report for the 9th Inter society Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, entitled “Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline”. The Hoehn and Dowy research included on-board storage tanks to supply the hydrogen enhancement.

There now exists a long history of studies and papers documenting the beneficial affects of HFI. Since the early studies in 1974, there have been ongoing studies and testing of HHO principles and applications. You will find an oft-cited list of these on many HHO web sites. More notable among these is a 1995 study and paper from the University of Birmingham, UK, “Fractional addition of hydrogen to internal combustion engines by exhaust gas fuel reforming” where the process yielded benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions.

California Environmental Engineering (CEE) has tested this technology and found reduction on all exhaust emissions. They subsequently stated: “CEE feels that the result of this test verifies that this technology is a viable source for reducing emissions and fuel consumption on large diesel engines.”

The HHO process is effective with any fossil fuel (diesel, gasoline, propane, natural gas) or bio-fuel (bio diesel, ethanol) though it is most effective in diesel engines. Among other, subtler effects, the presence of the hydrogen alters the initial stages of the unfolding combustion dynamic, altering the kinetic chemical pathway that the combustion follows. The net effect is to alter the time at which heat energy is released relative to the power cycle. The end result is to increase the adiabatic efficiency of the engine. In layman’s terms, this means increased fuel efficiency, decreased emissions, improved horsepower and torque and decreased maintenance expenses.

:coffee::seesaw:

[Phoenix67]

sir ehnriko... amidst the lengthly post... no scientific test done was shown on HHO to prove that it can improve the fuel efficiency of an HHO-assisted combustion engine.

the water-alcohol-mist system have all these proof/s on the car performance improvement (as shown by dvldoc).... since the HHO project/research is also a more than a 2 decade work, it should have shown car performance improvement trial results similar to those test done by dvldoc by this time ...

maybe you should conduct a similar dyno test on your posted HHO units sir?!?

[jpdm]

The scientific method is a way to ask and answer scientific questions by making observations and doing experiments. :cat:

The steps of the scientific method are to::fly:

1. Ask a Question {Does HHO enhancement work?}
2. Do Background Research (Google it}
3. Construct a Hypothesis (If I make one according to this ebook... and make good mmw and attach it to this vehicle will it work???}
4. Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment (Mileage Test after doing voltage drop tests, vacuum test, etc.}
5. Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion {plot a graph of runs and results with a baseline and compare to the enhanced runs}
6. Communicate Your Results {post it in youtube and discuss with other like minded or even skeptical - but constructive thinkers in cyberspace - this is now the modern and quick approach}

It is important for your experiment to be a fair test. A "fair test" occurs when you change only one factor (variable) and keep all other conditions the same.

What is a Scientist?... "A KEEN OBSERVER" - nothing to do with Naysaying..

LIKE WHAT THIS UNIVERSITY IN MADISSON civil and environmental engineering professor Marc Anderson’s section of InterEngineering 160.
:smoke:

You forgot to mentioned ehnriko one of the most important part before you proceed with your experiment and to make it valid and accepted and can be done repeatedly to test again the validity of the results. Of course Im referring to the methodology that you will use.

[ehnriko]

sir ehnriko... amidst the lengthly post... no scientific test done was shown on HHO to prove that it can improve the fuel efficiency of an HHO-assisted combustion engine.

the water-alcohol-mist system have all these proof/s on the car performance improvement (as shown by dvldoc).... since the HHO project/research is also a more than a 2 decade work, it should have shown car performance improvement trial results similar to those test done by dvldoc by this time ...

maybe you should conduct a similar dyno test on your posted HHO units sir?!?

Oh you mean something like this?...

This one was done on a DIY kit which was still mock up... not really in a commercial form and the kit was even a resistive type cell. Old test actually. Maybe drawing about 7 to 15A from the alternator. At any rate - it was dyno tested. You can also find dyno results from other experimenters.

The real test I do is everyday driving. Comparing the drive feel of a normal fueled car against my hydrogen enhanced small car... there is a big difference. With less pedal pressure - I am cruising at 80 to 100... compared to an EFI 1600 car without enhancement... I can barely reach 60 being hard on the right pedal.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoyF1jcOWJY"]YouTube - The Fast & The Curious! Hydrogen Enhanced Car dyno tested[/ame]

[ghosthunter]

The real test I do is everyday driving. Comparing the drive feel of a normal fueled car against my hydrogen enhanced small car... there is a big difference. With less pedal pressure - I am cruising at 80 to 100... compared to an EFI 1600 car without enhancement... I can barely reach 60 being hard on the right pedal.

There is always the placebo effect. That is why there is the scientific method of testing that removes the human "feel" if something works or not.

If you are convinced that it works, it can be tested and measured on a dyno. A test to see if there is a significant difference in engine performance without/with/without the device in question when run on a dyno.

[ehnriko]

You forgot to mentioned ehnriko one of the most important part before you proceed with your experiment and to make it valid and accepted and can be done repeatedly to test again the validity of the results. Of course Im referring to the methodology that you will use.

something like this? (this is the first test I did - in the desert, using a calibrated fuel reserve)

Run 1 (BEFORE)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fg5MYRht4U"]YouTube - Hydrogen Enhanced Dio mileage test 1[/ame]

rUN 2(AFTER)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TwFMOIyYnw"]YouTube - HHO enhanced Dio mileage test 2[/ame]

In case you would like to seek reference on these test - it is also the most debated in CR4 engineering website. Where they try to debunk me.

At any rate - when I did this test - I wasn't expecting any improvement at all. I was merely curious and I video recorded it merely for my own experiment.

I would have kept it to myself - but it was necessary to put it in public in order to share this info in open source.

I hate repeating myself - if you need questions answered - just go to these threads... we are a bit late already to discuss or debate about my HHO Honda Dio mileage run videos.

Here's the thread from CR4 - started by the great HHO debunker Ken Fry... he placed the title on this thread - I have no knowledge about it... I was merely invited to refute the debunking. What the heck.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/22670#newcomments

I will be off this weekend to rest... so feel free to do research - there's no free lunch and some more info will not be free. You need to work for them yourself. If you are not showing the money - then at least - do your own google search - but try to ask the right question or type the right key words.

What is right?.... well - nothing is absolutely right... everything is relative.

Cheers and may everyone have a good weekend. :bike2:

[dvldoc]

Oh you mean something like this?...

This one was done on a DIY kit which was still mock up... not really in a commercial form and the kit was even a resistive type cell. Old test actually. Maybe drawing about 7 to 15A from the alternator. At any rate - it was dyno tested. You can also find dyno results from other experimenters.

The real test I do is everyday driving. Comparing the drive feel of a normal fueled car against my hydrogen enhanced small car... there is a big difference. With less pedal pressure - I am cruising at 80 to 100... compared to an EFI 1600 car without enhancement... I can barely reach 60 being hard on the right pedal.

YouTube - The Fast & The Curious! Hydrogen Enhanced Car dyno tested

Again with this lame youtube video, First of all, a 2.3 gain in HP is really almost no gain at all because it's the car just warming up and is in the normal range of back to back runs.

If it's not more than 5hp it's in the normal range of difference on a dyno.

Let me prove my fact with a dyno done on the exact same dyno machine you did your one.

Here's the results between run 1 and run to which were just baseline dyno test.

1500 rpms gain - 2.2hp
2000 rpms gain - 3.5hp
2500 rpms gain - 2.3hp
3000 rpms gain - 0.4hp
3500 rpms gain - 3hp gain

Still kicks the crap our of HHO and nothing was even done, You guys really need to learn how cars work if your going to put up these lame you tube videos.



Your other test on the scooter is no better than any other testimonial on the net. How does a 6 minute video proof fuel economy?

Anyway since you like playing with your scooter you should try something actually will give you a gain.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A24q08NVQVw"]YouTube - HomeMade Water Injection Kit For my TWO STROKE MOTOR[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGj_FwFOqGM"]YouTube - DIO 50CC WATER INJECTION EXPLAINED IN GREAT DETAIL #2[/ame]

Or on the wild side.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bonneville3.html

We do a lot of snow mobiles, turbo harleys, and busa's as well.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhS_pjtskdQ"]YouTube - 0 to 100 mph in 4 seconds...on a snowmobile.[/ame]

Your not going to get that with a bubbler.

[Phoenix67]

In the interest of science...

I guess dvldoc's test/s have/had better repeatability test and is more scientific.

I hope the HHO can follow the same method that dvldoc have been doing... in fact, it would be even better if it can be tested on the same engine/vehicle... along side with dvldoc's water-alcohol spray system (sorry I don't know a better way to call it)... wouldn't that be more interesting?!?

In the interest of mankind... if HHO will prove its worth... then more people would be benefiting from both technologies...

just my 2 cents worth.

[A121]

The scientific method is a way to ask and answer scientific questions by making observations and doing experiments. :cat:

The steps of the scientific method are to::fly:

1. Ask a Question {Does HHO enhancement work?}
2. Do Background Research (Google it}
3. Construct a Hypothesis (If I make one according to this ebook... and make good mmw and attach it to this vehicle will it work???}
4. Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment (Mileage Test after doing voltage drop tests, vacuum test, etc.}
5. Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion {plot a graph of runs and results with a baseline and compare to the enhanced runs}
6. Communicate Your Results {post it in youtube and discuss with other like minded or even skeptical - but constructive thinkers in cyberspace - this is now the modern and quick approach}

It is important for your experiment to be a fair test. A "fair test" occurs when you change only one factor (variable) and keep all other conditions the same.

What is a Scientist?... "A KEEN OBSERVER" - nothing to do with Naysaying..

1. Use scholar.google.com or attached a "site:.edu"- at least the papers you see are peer reviewed or are from some reliable source.

2. Another thing that you forgot is that the data from the experiment can be easily validated by your peers.

3. I believe that the internet is a good place to discuss BUT it would be much better if you publish a scientific journal and get your claims peer reviewed. The academic community is more than welcome to discuss your discoveries.

4. I also have seen a similar paper about using a scooter as a test bed for hydrogen fueled vehicle. (but I forgot the .edu link). The engine is much simpler (1 cylinder, 2 stroke), injecting hydrogen MIGHT be much simpler. Also, the requirement for the amount of hydrogen MIGHT be much less. This I am comparing to the engines that has more cylinders and are much more complicated.

5. I believe the paper on "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine" is not using electrolysis to produce hydrogen. This is the actual paper. I used scholar.google.com -> http://www.rotaryeng.net/scanabhy1230016.pdf

[vernieg]

Share ko lang ang experience namin when using HHO and water vapor.
When we add HHO from an electolysis setup and when we add water vapor sent through GEET, we have to retune the engine to take advantage of the supplemental fuel we added. Part of the retuning process is reduction of gasoline fuel. Reducing the gasoline fuel without the HHO and water vapor supplement, the engine won't perform well for gasoline input was already at its optimal amount with the corresponding air input.

Adding HHO and water vapor will alter the engine idle rpm (it will usually goes up), so we need to lower down the gasoline input to go back to the desired idle rpm. Ignition timing is also adjusted for the current combination of fuel (gasoline+HHO+water vapor through GEET). It is at this point we save some gasoline at idle setup. During acceleration, it is your foot that should back out more often since mas maganda na ang response ng makina after retuning with supplemental fuel. We even come to a point we need to replace the carburetor jets to smaller sizes. HHO and water vapor through GEET made this possible na hindi maghingalo ang makina even we reduce the jet sizes.

[niky]

The problem with such a system is that you can see similar results simply by injecting the water itself and performing the jetting and timing adjustments you listed, relying on the water injection to prevent overheating and detonation.

In fact, there's enough leeway in your average engine to go a step down in terms of fueling and to add a little advance for better economy. The water injection or vapor injection merely acts to prevent engine damage from this type of tuning.

[artnesmith]

As amateur hobbyists in this, we need to be careful of our own methods of evaluating our progress. I had a ammeter I felt was accurate, but found out later is was only accurate to 8 amps probably. Internal resistance past 8 amps made all figures suspect and gave me elevated efficiency numbers. Better to invest in a more quality shunt ammeter or a nice clamp on type to be sure of your figures so you don't wind up re-testing everything as I did. I've seen those auto sweep ammeters register low, but actual amps were close to 30. Very inaccurate! Also to be sure of proper volume of HHO measurements I would highly recommend going to a medical supply and buying one of those lung volume measuring devices hospitals use to test for breathing efficiency. I don't remember what they are called, but I'm sure they will know what you want if you tell them it's used in hospitals to test lung function in people with emphysema. Using one of these you can measure output more exactly. Of course, if you are below 1,000 feet elevation from sea level your figures will be different from high altitude. If you are thousands of feet above sea level, like in Denver, Colorado or Mexico City, your volumes of HHO may appear larger than most. If you post your figures it might help to mention altitude. My altitude is approximately 100-300 feet above sea level for example, but more likely closer to 100 feet. Also you will need to check volts as accurately as you can at the cell itself. Tesla and Edison were at odds with each other for years over the controversy between DC and AC current. Tesla knew DC (Direct Current) would lose too much power between the generating station and point of use. Only AC was capable of being used to keep from losing so much efficiency. Edison worried about the danger of AC (Alternating Current), but finally gave in to reality. In my use if you have 13.7 volts at the battery on a car running equipped with an alternator, then using 12 gauge wire 12 feet long you end up with approximately 11.3-11.5 volts at the source. Not good! Better to test these cells more directly connected much the way they would be if installed in the vehicle.

You need to evaluate progress using Faraday's Law which I believe was first established sometime prior to 1850. This takes the energy value or your hydrogen compared to the energy consumed in generating that power. For example, volts X amps = watts. How many watt hours do you take to generate on liter of HHO? How much gasoline or diesel does it take to make a watt? Also be advised that one third of the volume of gas we generate is oxygen and does not count in this formula. Sorry guys!

Here's what we are left with to save typing:
To figure watt hours per liter use this formula: Figure volts and amps. Volts X amps = watts
Then measure volume of HHO and time it took to make this HHO, say 400 milliliters in 30 seconds (.4 liter) for one example. Using more math figure out how long it would take in seconds to make one liter. In this example it would be 75 seconds to make a liter.
Take the watts X seconds/liter (in this case 75) divided by 3600 and you get Watt Hours per liter. Here is an example:
13.5 volts X 12 amps = 162 watts
162 watts X 75 = 12150 Now divide this by 3600 to get watt hours and you get 3.375 Watt Hours per liter. Anything less than 2.4 is overunity and never been accomplished or documented.

Percent efficiency would be this formula:
Amps X volts X test period in seconds - for our use test period will be 60 seconds. The above example would be .8 liter per minute or 60 seconds. So our formula would be:
7744 X 100 X [liters per minute HHO] divided by (amps X volts X 60) So the above example would be:
7744 X 100 X .8 divided by (12 X 13.5 X 60) = 63.74% efficient Faraday. Be advised 100% efficiency or above is overunity and never been documented. Best HHO cell documented, to the best of my knowledge, has been 85% and I believe that was on 24 volts if I'm not mistaken, unit built for heavy duty diesel use. Anything you add such as pumps or cooling fans will drop efficiency as they increase electrical consumption.

That's all for now. I want to apologize that I was unable to free the time to read any of the new post due to being short on time. I'll read it tonight or in the AM tomorrow time permitting.

[Phoenix67]

^^ bottomline... will a working HHO be run side-by-side vs alcohol-water mist system on a dyno to compare the performance?

[Phoenix67]

Oh you mean something like this?...

YouTube - The Fast & The Curious! Hydrogen Enhanced Car dyno tested

Can you please post a better image of the dyno test results? it is a bit blurred and unreadable for old eyes like mine.

i would like to compare it with dvldocs test results.