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  1. Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8,837
    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by creepy


    It's a question of sovereignty. If a Filipino (or a Kenyan or Bolivian or

    sovereignty? meron ba talaga nakakaintindi sa tin kung ano ibig sabihin nito?


    we have politicians, executives, businessmen who are working their butts off to achieve the American Dream - live in America with lots and lots of retirement fund so as not to work again for the rest of their lives.

    we have movie houses where majority of cinemas have hollywood movies and where select local movies, mosty made by giant networks ABS or GMA are shown.

    we have a military who pockets their yearly budget to feed their families than buy what is needed to protect our sovereignty.

    even rice is cheaper to get from China than from our local farmers.

    nowadays, if we have politicos who claim they are nationalists or they love their country so much, they're just considered grandstanding.

    tingin ko ang mga true-blooded nationalists na lang ngayon, eh yun mga tao
    na nagtatrabaho sa BSP saka sa National Security. but even they wont go that low na maki-ride on sa scrap VFA coz of rape case controversy.

  2. Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    787
    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    Kapatid, may VFA ba sa US ang alleged Filipino rapist? Kung wala, eh di why give up the Filipino? Kung meron, eh di ibigay ang hilig ng Pinas. Depende din naman sa nilalaman ng VFA mismo.

    Pantay pantay na papaano? Gaya ng sabi ni coder, hindi ba binasa ng mga politician sa pinas ang VFA??? It clearly states that US can demand custody while the case is in progress.

    Pantay pantay, eh di basahin muna ang VFA bago pirmahan. Tapos ngayon tatawag ng FOUL ibang Pinoy dahil gusto ng US sila may custody sa mga USMC. Eh kung pinagisipan muna kse bago pinirmahan, eh di wala sanang nagrereklamo ng inequality.

    Straight-Six, tama ka...kadalasan mga USMC ang sumisira sa pangalan ng US Military.
    You are confusing what is legal with what is moral/right. U.S. power makes its actions "legal" but it does not make these same actions right.

    Unless the U.S. government (and the near-sighted people living there who don't give a d**n about offending weaker countries) realizes this, you cannot blame people for becoming angry.

    Please take a deep breath and think carefully about what you write -- and ask yourself if what the U.S. is doing is something you (as a human being first and U.S. citizen second) would be proud of.
    Last edited by creepy; January 27th, 2006 at 04:36 PM.

  3. Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,218
    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CoDer
    I just can't help it but wonder why the media has been so one sided on this case. Na scrap na rin ba ang balanced journalism dito sa pilipinas?
    One possibility for the bias might be due to the fact that not a single US serviceman stood in a Philippine court to face his accuser/s. Before the bases were handed over, there were numerous allegations of rape and murder that never saw the light of day in court, as the accused were automatically reassigned to other posts outside the Philippines. I remember a case where a USAF guard shot a pinoy scavenging in a dumpsite. The guard claimed that he thought the scavenger was a wild boar (baboy-damo). The guard was immediately reassigned to Japan. Perceived injustices like this one is just part of the reasons why people protested on the streets during the VFA negotiations. The agreement was still ratified by the then-Senate, so we have to thank our politicians for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    ...kadalasan mga USMC ang sumisira sa pangalan ng US Military.
    It could be the result of the training they got, being gung-ho and all that. But then again, my cousin and bro-in-law were ex-Seals ... I've never seen them act like cowboys, so maybe not.

    Good luck na lang sa Pilipinas over the custody battle. Even the Italians weren't succesful when they demanded custody of the Marine jet crew who killed 20 skiers, even if they're hosts to a US base at Aviano.
    Last edited by StraightSix; January 27th, 2006 at 07:27 PM.

  4. Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    10,820
    #14
    vfa has already been ratified by the Philippine senate BUT has not yet been ratified by the US senate.

    so what needs to be scrapped when there is no treaty to speak of? the treaty is only binding if both governments ratify it. since the US has not yet ratified the vfa then they can in fact say "aahhh, what treaty?" so can the philippine government if it wants to.

  5. Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    13,415
    #15
    Well, akin ok lang tanggalin ang VFA, wag lang hihingi ng tulong sa US pag sinugod/bully ng ibang nations like China

  6. Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,218
    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by yebo
    vfa has already been ratified by the Philippine senate BUT has not yet been ratified by the US senate.
    Thanks, yebo. You're right - there is no binding treaty.

    Article IX: Duration and Termination
    This agreement shall enter into force on the date on which the parties have notified each other in writing through the diplomatic channel that they have completed their constitutional requirements for entry into force. This agreement shall remain in force until the expiration of 180 days from the date on which either party gives the other party notice in writing that it desires to terminate the agreement.

    theveed, regarding US response to an attack on the Phil. from an external enemy, isn't that covered by the RP-US Mutual Defense Treaty? Bullying is not covered, I think

  7. Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    4,801
    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by creepy
    You are confusing what is legal with what is moral/right. U.S. power makes its actions "legal" but it does not make these same actions right.
    I thought we are talking about LEGAL issues here creepy?

    If the same actions isnt right? then why the heck those Pinoy politicians signed and agreed to it. Dont tell me the US forced them to. [?]

    The last time I checked, US practices utilitarianism as opposed to deontologist.

    See, those politicians are now opposed to VFA are just looking for a scapegoat for the mistake they made. What else is new!!!

    Please take a deep breath and think carefully about what you write -- and ask yourself if what the U.S. is doing is something you (as a human being first and U.S. citizen second) would be proud of.
    Didnt have to take a deep breath... but YES, the US makes me prouder than the Philippine Government as a US Military personnel, as a citizen, and as a human being. (in that particular order)

    Its about time we have an interesting discussion again in tsikot as opposed to threads started early this week :evillaugh

    StraightSix, Marines yata ang talagang may bad rep kahit anong bansa. I know Phil Marines in Basilan/Mindanao are dubbed as rapist as well. (1980s)

    Some servicemembers couldnt stand the military (not because of morals but because they're tired of having asked what to do) and will do anything just to get out. Those Marines could be on the same situation.

    I remember in 1997 when the first Anthrax vaccine was admistered to US servicemembers. A part of the flight deck crew that I was working with are just tired of working in the flight deck for long hours (18+hrs shift). (out of HS kids, couldnt stand the military work). Some of them decided not to take the Anthrax vaccine and thus faced a dishonorable discharge. Damn, tuwang tuwa pa ang mga ogagz. Some of my crew even used marijuana just to get out of the military earlier than the inital enlistment of 4 years.

  8. Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    787
    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    I thought we are talking about LEGAL issues here creepy?
    Huh??? Really???

    The basic reason for law is morality and not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    If the same actions isnt right? then why the heck those Pinoy politicians signed and agreed to it. Dont tell me the US forced them to. [?]
    Of course not!! Bully and "persuade" is more like it. The repudiation of the VFA would be a step in the right direction. If politicians allowed themselves to be "persuaded" then they should correct themselves now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    The last time I checked, US practices utilitarianism as opposed to deontologist.
    WHAA??

    Quote Originally Posted by Karding
    Didnt have to take a deep breath... but YES, the US makes me prouder than the Philippine Government as a US Military personnel, as a citizen, and as a human being. (in that particular order)
    You should have taken my advice, breathed deeply and thought more carefully before posting. Be careful with braggadocio and bigotry.

    I think that Hitler, Eichmann et al thought of themselves as Aryan and German first before they were human. For Osama, Al-Zawahiri and the Taliban, they're clearly of the view that they're Muslim and Arabs first before they're humans.

    God save us from the American version of the Taliban.

    People should not need to show off their uniforms and passport to be able to stand tall. Americans are NOT superior to anyone else, let me remind you
    Last edited by creepy; January 28th, 2006 at 01:08 PM.

  9. Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,894
    #19
    i don't get it. are they talking about scrapping a whole treaty because of one clause that they didn't like and a single incident? isn't that an overreaction?

    like Karding said, madaling magsalita dahil hindi ko kamag-anak yung na-rape, but i thought the Philippine government, economy and military all benefited from the VFA? correct me if i'm wrong.

    wouldn't it be a better idea to pursue an amendment instead of junking the whole thing?

    i have no sympathy for rapists (keeping in mind these marines are all innocent until proven guilty), but on the other hand i kinda appreciate that the US government protects its citizens when they're abroad.

    btw US military justice is swift and harsh. i don't think these guys would be getting off easy if they were to be court-martialed.

  10. Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1,310
    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by M54 Powered
    i don't get it. are they talking about scrapping a whole treaty because of one clause that they didn't like and a single incident? isn't that an overreaction?

    like Karding said, madaling magsalita dahil hindi ko kamag-anak yung na-rape, but i thought the Philippine government, economy and military all benefited from the VFA? correct me if i'm wrong.

    wouldn't it be a better idea to pursue an amendment instead of junking the whole thing?

    i have no sympathy for rapists (keeping in mind these marines are all innocent until proven guilty), but on the other hand i kinda appreciate that the US government protects its citizens when they're abroad.

    btw US military justice is swift and harsh. i don't think these guys would be getting off easy if they were to be court-martialed.
    Ditto.

    I think the media/politicos/other useless third parties (i.e. communist militants) have been way too one-sided on this whole issue. Madali nga magsalita kung di ko kamag-anak yung na rape.

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Scrap the VFA?