PHUV, Inc.

[GTi]

That's good news. At least we are now seeing some promising attempts on improving the mass transport system. I just hope that unlike the jeepney, they will continuously improve these electric vehicles to become safer, more comfortable and more efficient. More power from the electric motor, longer range and availability of low costing yet durable spare parts would be welcome.

[EVO-V]

I'm not quite sure, there are serious performance issues with E-bikes at the moment that need to be addressed. They can't be applicable to the 5,000,000 trikes out there.

I'd personally like to see the cost of ownership E-bikes have.

I think the reduction of operating costs is a great thing, but I don't understand where this inflated savings number of P300 comes from. Typical tricycle drivers spend about 150-200 pesos in fuel every day depending on the distance they travel.

We also do not know how much maintenance is sunk into these e-bikes, their expected durability, and how much the batteries would cost per replacement cycle.

But please, other than the obvious benefits being quiet, clean, there are quite a bit of practical considerations that can't be ignored.

[uls]

ADB offering the govt loans to finance phaseout of tricycles

replace tricycles with e-bikes

haha

good luck with that

it's similar to the vision where ejeepneys would replace PUJs

how's that going?

BTW, sounds like an e-bike supplier has friends in the ADB

[EVO-V]

Its a lot of greenwashing really.

Attach anything to global warming and CO2 emissions and these guys just eat it up without looking at the whole hoo-ha behind it.

You're extending loans not to drivers but to owners of these tricycles. How much are they paying for one e-trike across how long?

Tweak the design of the tricycle cab, work on weight, aerodynamics, and a few things and you can have far more realizable savings than necessary.

If noise is a problem you'll need a redesign of the muffler. Someone's going to make money at the expense of commonsense yet again.

[ghosthunter]

I'm not quite sure, there are serious performance issues with E-bikes at the moment that need to be addressed. They can't be applicable to the 5,000,000 trikes out there.

I'd personally like to see the cost of ownership E-bikes have.

I think the reduction of operating costs is a great thing, but I don't understand where this inflated savings number of P300 comes from. Typical tricycle drivers spend about 150-200 pesos in fuel every day depending on the distance they travel.

We also do not know how much maintenance is sunk into these e-bikes, their expected durability, and how much the batteries would cost per replacement cycle.

But please, other than the obvious benefits being quiet, clean, there are quite a bit of practical considerations that can't be ignored.

Same here. I would like to see actual data about the operating costs (daily, monthly and annual) of a typical electric-trike. It would be great if they would also include data on the life-span of the batteries used in the e-trikes.

Much like in the discussion of the e-jeepney, the people behind the project claim the numbers and costs computed by Niky and I are not correct but they don't post their own data to "correct" the mistaken calculated numbers.

It is almost for sure these people are not posting the information because of either they do not have the data themselves or the data/numbers are not favorable for the long term adaptation of the project.

[uls]

Attach anything to global warming and CO2 emissions and these guys just eat it up

exactly

you can attach global warming to a product that reduces farting (greenhouse gas emission) and they'll eat it up

yes, the loans are for tricycle operators

the govt now has to convince the operators to give up their trikes

that i gotta see

[niky]

Same here. I would like to see actual data about the operating costs (daily, monthly and annual) of a typical electric-trike. It would be great if they would also include data on the life-span of the batteries used in the e-trikes.

Much like in the discussion of the e-jeepney, the people behind the project claim the numbers and costs computed by Niky and I are not correct but they don't post their own data to "correct" the mistaken calculated numbers.

It is almost for sure these people are not posting the information because of either they do not have the data themselves or the data/numbers are not favorable for the long term adaptation of the project.

If they're chinese batteries... like in the typical mall-sold e-bike, I'd give them a year. You need expensive batteries and an electronic charge-controller and leveller to make sure any hare-brained idiot with a 220V wall socket can charge them without destroying them in that span of time. That's the problem that killed the e-buses of MOA (and is currently afflicting Dad's EV). The problem that the E-Jeep group says they don't have because they have said charge-controller.

Putting all that together, aside from the e-trikes, which cost more than a tricycle of the same capabilities (meaning scooter-based... if you want to match the more powerful motorcycles used for regular tricycle routes, you need much more money), you need to buy expensive charging equipment.

This is a wild guesstimate... but I'd say an E-trike set-up with proper charging equipment and a good range would cost about 180,000-200,000 pesos. (150,000 for the trike) Maybe less if you use the charger for multiple trikes. But each tricycle will have about four to five hours of downtime every day after around forty kilometers of use, so that has to be programmed into the equation.

Mind... tricycle use is much easier to justify with EVs than jeep use. Tricycles are already speed limited, and their very short routes (1-3 kilometers) play to EV advantages.

I think the people to ask would be the ones running the Fort service.

[ghosthunter]

I think the people to ask would be the ones running the Fort service.

The e-trike (tilapia) running in the Fort are running on a relatively flat area which would result in a longer operating time/distance.

[niky]

The e-trike (tilapia) running in the Fort are running on a relatively flat area which would result in a longer operating time/distance.

Yeah... but most tricycle service areas are relatively flat, anyway... and tricycles suck at climbing grades with a full load.

That's the big problem. As far as I remember, the E-trikes at the Fort are already 150k+++ and there's no indication they have the torque to climb a grade with a full load... though I see them on C5 from time to time.

[GTi]

What happens to these things when they are subjected to flood? I'm sure there are some inevitable situations like these that some of the e-trikes, and many other EV's would encounter. Are these EV's resilient to floods? How much would repair costs be if it gets downed by flood? I'm sure these are also some of the things PUV operators consider before buying these vehicles.

[ghosthunter]

What happens to these things when they are subjected to flood? I'm sure there are some inevitable situations like these that some of the e-trikes, and many other EV's would encounter. Are these EV's resilient to floods? How much would repair costs be if it gets downed by flood? I'm sure these are also some of the things PUV operators consider before buying these vehicles.

I don't think even regular trikes are meant to survive being drowned in a flood.

So I don't think that is a major consideration.

[niky]

If the motor are water-sealed, no problem. If not, problem.

Remember, a car's alternator is an electric generator, and that goes under every time you're in just one or two feet of water.

I'd worry more about the controller boards and chips. Even if they're water sealed, if the vehicle is still running when the water hits the electric motors/batteries/etcetera, short-circuits and feedback can fry things inside.

Still... not any more of a problem than with most EFI vehicles. But waterproofing will definitely add to the total cost. (and if you're worried about electrocution... cars have batteries, too. )

[EVO-V]

If you want to wean tricycles off the roads, you need to uplift the people who own and operate them as the public that uses them.

Tricycle drivers spend an average of 2-3 liters a day for 70 km. (Yes I've studied this) and the fact that they are claiming 300 pesos a day savings is astonishingly obscure at best.

Tricyle operators purchase a bike for P75k cash, if financed across 3 years, it comes to about 110-125 pistachios. Add anything from 16-27k for the sidecar.

Operators get paid 100-120 pesos a day, and spend an average of about 2500 per month for the payments on the trike, and about 150 pesos is allocated for maintenance. Sprockets, chains and tires wear out but they are inexpensive. The rest is what they keep as a profit.

Now let's run the numbers. Even if you get 200,000 peso vehicle financed at zero percent for 3 years, you are looking at P 5555.56 a month. How in the world are you going to finance that?

I really would like to see the business case on this, its appallingly riddled with greenwashing, technical ineptitude and questionable ethics.

One would be surprised with trikes, they can survive floods, just take the engine apart, dry your electricals, lube it up, and then kick to run it. Those things, sans their presence on provincial highways, are remarkably resilient and cost-effective.

[ghosthunter]

I really would like to see the business case on this, its appallingly riddled with greenwashing, technical ineptitude and questionable ethics.

I would like to see the business model used for the e-jeepney as well.

[cktlcmd]

One would be surprised with trikes, they can survive floods, just take the engine apart, dry your electricals, lube it up, and then kick to run it. Those things, sans their presence on provincial highways, are remarkably resilient and cost-effective.

This is the reason why they're still here and so are those rusty jeeps

[uls]

If you want to wean tricycles off the roads, you need to uplift the people who own and operate them as the public that uses them.

Tricycle drivers spend an average of 2-3 liters a day for 70 km. (Yes I've studied this) and the fact that they are claiming 300 pesos a day savings is astonishingly obscure at best.

Tricyle operators purchase a bike for P75k cash, if financed across 3 years, it comes to about 110-125 pistachios. Add anything from 16-27k for the sidecar.

Operators get paid 100-120 pesos a day, and spend an average of about 2500 per month for the payments on the trike, and about 150 pesos is allocated for maintenance. Sprockets, chains and tires wear out but they are inexpensive. The rest is what they keep as a profit.

Now let's run the numbers. Even if you get 200,000 peso vehicle financed at zero percent for 3 years, you are looking at P 5555.56 a month. How in the world are you going to finance that?

I really would like to see the business case on this, its appallingly riddled with greenwashing, technical ineptitude and questionable ethics.

One would be surprised with trikes, they can survive floods, just take the engine apart, dry your electricals, lube it up, and then kick to run it. Those things, sans their presence on provincial highways, are remarkably resilient and cost-effective.

that's why i said GOOD LUCK trying to convince operators to abandon their tricycles for electric bikes

[niky]

If you want to wean tricycles off the roads, you need to uplift the people who own and operate them as the public that uses them.

Tricycle drivers spend an average of 2-3 liters a day for 70 km. (Yes I've studied this) and the fact that they are claiming 300 pesos a day savings is astonishingly obscure at best.

Tricyle operators purchase a bike for P75k cash, if financed across 3 years, it comes to about 110-125 pistachios. Add anything from 16-27k for the sidecar.

Operators get paid 100-120 pesos a day, and spend an average of about 2500 per month for the payments on the trike, and about 150 pesos is allocated for maintenance. Sprockets, chains and tires wear out but they are inexpensive. The rest is what they keep as a profit.

Now let's run the numbers. Even if you get 200,000 peso vehicle financed at zero percent for 3 years, you are looking at P 5555.56 a month. How in the world are you going to finance that?

I really would like to see the business case on this, its appallingly riddled with greenwashing, technical ineptitude and questionable ethics.

One would be surprised with trikes, they can survive floods, just take the engine apart, dry your electricals, lube it up, and then kick to run it. Those things, sans their presence on provincial highways, are remarkably resilient and cost-effective.

Don't forget to plug in the down-time numbers. An E-trike may not be able to do 70 kilometers a day... on lead-acid batteries, it's more likely 20-40 kilometers... at which point you'd have to buy two battery packs to match the range of the gasoline tricycle.

[GTi]

I don't think even regular trikes are meant to survive being drowned in a flood.

So I don't think that is a major consideration.

Yes but they are at least able to withstand, say, a few inches of water without problems. Would the e-trikes even be able to withstand heavy rain pounding on the motor? EV tech is still in its infancy, they'd better develop it more and find ways to make it less costly as well if they want to sell more of it.

[niky]

Yes but they are at least able to withstand, say, a few inches of water without problems. Would the e-trikes even be able to withstand heavy rain pounding on the motor? EV tech is still in its infancy, they'd better develop it more and find ways to make it less costly as well if they want to sell more of it.

Depends on the build. Remember the Rinspeed Squba? The Lotus Elise that transformed into a submersible? That was all-electric.

Simple builds like Golf-carts are not waterproof, but more advanced E-Vehicles have sealed connections and are relatively weatherproof.

Of course... E-trikes aren't exactly advanced...

[GTi]

My thoughts exactly. Jeepneys are not only supposed to be able to seat a lot of people. They should also be durable vehicles that can withstand the rigorous test of nature and time and be relatively cheap to maintain with an abundance of low cost spare parts in case something breaks down. The e-jeepneys currently made are, pardon me for the term, simply enlarged golf carts. Unless they have made any sort of improvements, if I recall correctly, they had considerable difficulty in climbing inclines and tops out at about 40km/h. They really should do something more with these things before they expect the public to readily accept them.