Too many PASAWAY motorcycle RIDERS on the street

[Leviticus]

Sa ayaw at sa gusto nating lahat dito... hindi na makatotohanan na asahan nating habulin ng mga traffic enforcers ang karamihan (di ko sinasabing lahatan o mangilan-ngilan o isa) sa mga "undisciplined riders" sa highways or mga kalsada natin.

Dahil:
- tignan lang natin ang thread title natin dito ("too much motorcycles on the street")
- hindi lang motorcycles ang binabantayan nila, isama pa natin ang bus, jeep, trucks, cars, etc.
- 1 is to 500 pa rin ba ang bilang ng traffic enforcers natin sa kalsada natin? ano ba ang ideal? kung ikaw ang TE, ilan ang kaya mong bantayan?
- kung napakababa ng pagkakataon na mahuli ang mga pasaway sa kalsada, matatakot ba sila?
- hindi madali ang tumayo sa ating mga kalsada at magbantay.
- etc.


Btw, kung magkakabit tayo ng mga camera sa mga intersection natin o sa kahabaan ng EDSA... sino ang mas madaling makalulusot sa mga camera (cars or bikes)? Sinubukan na ito sa EDSA noon, diba?

Motorcycles on our streets are just too many.

Ban underbones on EDSA and C5.
--> http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showp...&postcount=284
--> http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showp...&postcount=277

alam mo ang mali mo? pasabi sabi ka ng "ang karamihan" pero sa dulo ng post ay babanat ng "ban underbones..."

kung hindi mo maintindihan, sinayang lang ng diyos ang pagbigay ng utak sa iyo.

idadamay mo ang mga matitino na rider sa ban dahil sa kitid ng pagiisip mo.

eh bakit sa clark at subic matino ang mga motorista dun? hamak na MASMALIIT ang EDSA kumpara sa clark at subic, bakit hindi ma-enforce ng maayos.

[Leviticus]

do you really want me to nitpick at why your reasoning is "flimsy" at best? nagpipilosopo ka pa at "nagpapalusot".

Pre, ano yung saksakan ng mali sa logic ko?

For your question number 1...
Paano mo nga gagawin ito? Paano magiging makatotohanan ito? Baka naman kailanganin pa ng malupet na milagro para mangyari 'to? Binanggit na rin na hindi lang sa Pilipinas may mga pasaway, nag-post na rin ako ng mga links.
Ang isa sa mga punto ko dito ay makapag-isip tayo ng solusyon na hindi kelangan ng milagro para maisakatuparan. Baka naman bago natin magawa itong sinasabi mo ay kelangang one is to one ang bilang ng traffic enforcers sa bawat motorista?!? Ang kaya lang natin gawin ay mabawasan ang peligro na dulot ng underbones sa mga nagmamaneho, naglalakad, at kapwa nila byahero.

milagro ba ang hanap mo? hahahahahaha!!! ano ang hinihithit mo? kung ang mga traffic enforcers ay mahigpit, kung ang mga batas trapiko ay binabantayan, masasatupad yan. hindi kailangan ng "milagro" para lang gawin ng maayos ang trabaho ng mga tagapamahala natin.

in my opinion, masmalaki ang POSSIBILITY that laws can be enforced compared to banning a certain vehicle on the road. current statistics note that motorcycles outnumber private vehicles. what if private vehicles are banned as they are more likely to cause accidents upon collision?

our streets are archaic due to impotent law enforcement. fix law enforcement and you will see a big difference.

just now, I heard on the news that La Trinidad, Benguet fixed their enforcement of traffic management (number coding for private vehicles, odd-even scheme for jeeps, bus, and taxi). the result was amazing! wide roads, less traffic.

or are you telling me magpapadaig ang mga taga manila sa mga cordillerans?

For your question number 2...
Ito rin ang isa sa mga punto ko (sa tutuo lang, in some ways, YES) ... ilagay mo yang mga pasaway na rider sa mga kotse at isipin mo ang pagkakaiba sa pag-sita (or apprehend) sa kanila sa kalsada. Yung mga pasaway na rider na sanay lumabag sa batas trapiko sa mga highway natin, siguradong mahihirapan sila kung kotse dala nila at mas madaling habulin. Yung mga holdaper na naka scooter, kung kotse dala nila sa mabigat na trapik ng mga kalsada natin, sigurado hindi sila makakatakas gamit ang sasakyan nila - kung ikaw ang holdaper, lugi ka pa kung manghoholdap ka at iiwan mo lang pala yung kotse mo sa gitna ng kalsada dahil trapik. ANO BA? Nag-iisip pa ba tayo?

Nasagot ko ba ang mga tanong mo?

Sino ang "flimsy" nga ulit? Applicable nga ba sa parehong sitwasyon ang mga nabanggit na dahilan kung bakit kelangan i-ban ang mga underbones?

hold-upper, bank robbery, paghabol ng pasaway? parang contrasting ang sagot mo sa unang katanungan kumpara dito sa pangalawa. in your first answer you dictate that enforcement of the law is lacking but here you state that law enforcement is active.

ano ba?!?

one thing is for sure, you have an overly active imagination.

hindi dahil hindi mahabol ng mga awtoridad ang mga nakamotor kundi NANGHAHABOL nga ba ang mga awtoridad? kahit naka-SUV pa ang mga nanghold-up makakatakas pa rin sila. naalala mo ba ang glorietta robbery in 2009 that happened in broad daylight?

-----

so yes.. your argument is "flimsy" at best as you fail to present valid reasons. your argument is this: gamit ng criminals ay motor so let's ban the motorcycle.

eh bakit ang baril hindi banned? gamit ng mga criminal ang baril so let's ban guns.

pati alak nakakalasing and is a big factor in car accidents (specifically DUI cases), bakit hindi i-ban ang alak?

see what I mean? flimsy.

ikaw ang tipo ng tao na kapag nadulas at nadapa ay ipapakasalanan ang sahig dahil sinaktan ka ng sahig.

[Joned]

saksakan ng mali ang logic mo (as the other poster said) and I'm not even that much of a motorist.

I'd like to ask some questions directed to you-- but anyone can answer:

1. why not ban bad motorists on highways instead?
2. if an "undisciplined" rider get off his motorcycle and then drive a car, will that make him a "disciplined" motorist?

your arguments are too flimsy and can apply to cagers too. it's not the ride but the motorist/driver/rider.

No point trying to point that out to him man. The guy has the typical lousy mentality that keeps the country behind. He exhibits the lazy and corrupt attitude that has taken a foot hold on Filipinos. "Everyone is lazy and corrupt so lets just join them" attitude. "Nothing we can do about the big problem since all of us are lazy bums, let's just go for the quick fix". He likes band aids as opposed to a real cure. The guy thinks like a racist. No amount of sound logic and real facts can make him see or understand the big picture. He is blinded by his shallow beliefs. Typical of a 100% pure cager who knows nothing about MCs.

Likes to be "Realistic", and the reality is that most Filipinos are lazy and corrupt. From the workers, to the politicians, so yeah lets continue the status quo and keep the country behind. You don't need to have 1 is to 1 ratio of police and citizens, that proves what i said on just how simple minded the guy is. Take a look at developed countries. All you need is strict leadership that forces the cops to actually do their jobs or else there will be grave consequences(like being fired). Are the cops in developed countries 1 is to 1 in ratio with citizens? No! But the mere act of catching a few is enough to keep the majority following the laws.

Instead of using their voices to actually target the heads of the police and government to fix the REAL PROBLEM, they prefer just a temporary fix that doesn't solve the problem and will just pass it on to other areas. That is what I call lazy and illogical.

Hell, I don't even use an underbone and stand to lose nothing if the lazy guys get what they want with a ban on small MCs right now. But since I see the bigger picture, and the fact that cheap korea and china made big bikes are getting cheaper and more affordable and will soon be available in the Philippines, there will come a time when the simple minded fools will again go for the lazy fix and want a ban on 400cc and above MC's(Big Bikes) when they start seeing more of them on the road as well. Crying foul to the same issues of rising accident rates, and undisciplined riders all riding the now cheap korea/china big bikes. The never ending cycle of stupidity.

The Philippines pre-martial law is dead. All there is now is a Philippines filled with lazy and simple minded people that care nothing about real progress.

[Leviticus]

To be honest, while I'd generally agree to the ban, I'm not completely convinced 100%. I reiterate, it's a stopgap measure. Such things are not to be implemented in the long run.

You also have to note that it's really unfair if you ban them in *all* high-speed roads since some of these roads are crucial because of the poor planning and road network of the region. Buti kung maayos ang road network, baka you can get around to banning them from high-speed routes since they have alternate roads to use.

Kaya, at best, sa certain highways na lang or something. Tapos, strictly enforce lane zones on important routes instead. Paint proper markers, bawasan mga killer buses and stupid jeepneys, etc.

Pero, kapag ban sa bicycle, kuliglig at tricycle, ay ok ako. Ban them on all high-speed roads.

For me, I'd rather them be strict about motorcycle registration and rider conduct. Increase driver requirements for motorcycles. Bawal lumabas na walang plaka. Bawal tilted plates. Kung meron man nakitang naka-ganito, huli at impound agad. No questions asked. Kahit na sinong MMDA or pulis, kahit na ibang mission order.

On a minor note, ipagbawal na rin ang pagsisingit at lane-splitting. Ang pagsingit-singit ng mga tarantado ang nagiging cause ng sakuna at gasgas. Yung mga nauuna sa intersection na mga motorcycle? Huli.

In other words, pagtripan nila lahat ng naka-motor. Para tumino yung mga gago. Yung mga matitino (the very small minority), di naman dapat masyado affected since they should already know what's right and wrong.

baka mapag-bintangan ako dito sa thread na eto that I defend the bad riders/motorists. I condone them. I despise them. everyday that I go out driving or riding I always encounter a bad motorist (rider). but what can I do? I can't get down from my vehicle and tell the offending rider that he is wrong. baka mapa-away pa ako (driving rule: never alight from your vehicle as it is ALWAYS interpreted as confrontational). think jason ivler on two wheels.

everything is all well and good in bashing the bad offending rider who does not know the proper road rules and regulations.

however, I take offense in the idea of banning ALL riders because the good and disciplined rider (even if considered a minority) will be affected. it's like saying "lady drivers are undisciplined and don't know proper road rules, so let's
ban all lady drivers" (with apology to actual lady drivers.. this is just an example).

driver education and proper law enforcement<-- these are the essentials.

-------

oo nga pala.. we are actually out of topic!

there are plenty of motorcycles on the road nowadays mainly because of three factors: bad public transportation system, skyrocketing gasoline prices, and a motorcycle is way cheaper compared to a car.

if our public transportation system wasn't so bad then people would choose to commute, hands down. but its so bad! not to mention expensive.

[Leviticus]

No point trying to point that out to him man. The guy has the typical lousy mentality that keeps the country behind. He exhibits the lazy and corrupt attitude that has taken a foot hold on Filipinos. "Everyone is lazy and corrupt so lets just join them" attitude. "Nothing we can do about the big problem since all of us are lazy bums, let's just go for the quick fix".

--- snip for brevity---

The Philippines pre-martial law is dead. All there is now is a Philippines filled with lazy and simple minded people that care nothing about real progress.

ahhh.. now I got a handle on the guy's flow of thinking

me, I stay at home a lot nowadays. I even work at home via the internet but go out every once in a while-- so I don't loose my top when it comes to specific rider bashing.

it just irks me when generalizations are thrown around and those who do the generalizing take cover behind the mantra of "if you're not one of them then don't react".

what they don't realize is their ignorance and illogical thoughts are infectious. I remember years ago, the NBI released an "educational" video/commercial describing how to identify if a rider is a criminal. I don't remember all of the details but here are the highlights of the infomercial:

• wears dark helmet
• wears jacket
• has a back ride
• rides through the same route everyday (surveillance?)

duh.. they just described the majority of riders!

even the law-abiding rider got classified as a criminal.

[jave]

*Levi:

My bad. Used the wrong word. Instead of pagtripan, it should be "pag-initan". In other words, become very strict with them. Walang patawad.

You also forgot culture as to be blamed for the crappy traffic situation. I mean, kung sa pilahan lang sa mall ng mga tao eh di na kaya pumila ng maayos ang maraming tao dito, eh paano kaya sa traffic pa?

Natural na garapal at pasaway kasi ang Pilipino.

--

On that NBI "infomercial", to be perfectly honest, whenever I see two guys riding in tandem on an underbone, first thought is "snatcher." Now, with all these new modus operandi's out there, I think it's fair to think "holdupper", too.

[Joned]

To be honest, while I'd generally agree to the ban, I'm not completely convinced 100%. I reiterate, it's a stopgap measure. Such things are not to be implemented in the long run.

You also have to note that it's really unfair if you ban them in *all* high-speed roads since some of these roads are crucial because of the poor planning and road network of the region. Buti kung maayos ang road network, baka you can get around to banning them from high-speed routes since they have alternate roads to use.

Kaya, at best, sa certain highways na lang or something. Tapos, strictly enforce lane zones on important routes instead. Paint proper markers, bawasan mga killer buses and stupid jeepneys, etc.

Pero, kapag ban sa bicycle, kuliglig at tricycle, ay ok ako. Ban them on all high-speed roads.

For me, I'd rather them be strict about motorcycle registration and rider conduct. Increase driver requirements for motorcycles. Bawal lumabas na walang plaka. Bawal tilted plates. Kung meron man nakitang naka-ganito, huli at impound agad. No questions asked. Kahit na sinong MMDA or pulis, kahit na ibang mission order.

On a minor note, ipagbawal na rin ang pagsisingit at lane-splitting. Ang pagsingit-singit ng mga tarantado ang nagiging cause ng sakuna at gasgas. Yung mga nauuna sa intersection na mga motorcycle? Huli.

In other words, pagtripan nila lahat ng naka-motor. Para tumino yung mga gago. Yung mga matitino (the very small minority), di naman dapat masyado affected since they should already know what's right and wrong.

On the highlighted sentences above:

To ban the small MCs as I pointed out, will increase the demand for public transport by a large degree. So if they were to ban small MCs and lessen public transport at the same time, the rules of supply and demand will come into play. More commuters less transport to serve them. Sounds unfair to the less fortunate masses who can't afford cars of their own. That idea will just benefit 2 segments of the population and those are the well to do people, or upper-middle class and above. Majority of the population are lower middle class and below.

You also can't have them target just MCs with law enforcement because it still won't fix the bigger problem and that is the amount of undisciplined 4 wheeled and above vehicle users on the road, that far outnumber the 2 wheelers in the Metro.

There is a proper way of lane splitting and a wrong way. Sadly the inability of 4 wheelers in the country to maintain proper lane spacing also contributes to the risk of being hit by the undisciplined lane splitting MC users. If everyone knew how to follow the lanes and stay in the middle of them there would be enough space for small MCs to pass in-between cars safely during slow or stopped traffic. The reality is that lanes aren't being used properly due to the lack of education drivers/riders have and poor law enforcement. How often do you see a 5-6 lane road such as Edsa become a 8-9 lane road because everyone wants to fit their vehicle is the smallest of spaces just to get ahead of the others? Happens all the time and on almost all the roads in the Metro.

The rest of the post quoted still highlights the need for the REAL SOLUTION and that is "Strict law enforcement and driver education" applied to all road users. Not just cars, not just MCs, but all vehicles. I have seen the violations on a law enforcers ticket and can say that if everything there is properly implemented we will have less congested(traffic moving at a slow pace as opposed to stop and go) roads. You don't need a 1 is to 1 ratio of law enforcers but just a few on every road to strictly and consistently enforce the laws and you will have the majority of motorists follow. That is not dreaming. That is reality and fact. Most developed countries can do it, so why can't the Philippines.

[jave]

On the highlighted sentences above:
that is the amount of undisciplined 4 wheeled and above vehicle users on the road, that far outnumber the 2 wheelers in the Metro.

This, I disagree with, if only backed up by personal experience, if you count PUV's out of the picture.


But this...

There is a proper way of lane splitting and a wrong way. Sadly the inability of 4 wheelers in the country to maintain proper lane spacing also contributes to the risk of being hit by the undisciplined lane splitting MC users.

I agree with. Mga tao dito, no concept of lanes kasi.

If everyone knew how to follow the lanes and stay in the middle of them there would be enough space for small MCs to pass in-between cars safely during slow or stopped traffic.

Not really. Most roads here are not that wide enough. Even if cars stay perfectly in their lanes, in many roads, the spaces in between are still barely enough for a 2-wheel to sneak through.

What I'm trying to prevent when calling for a ban on "singit" is the act of idiot riders who think they know better and sneak through between cars and leave a gash on the car because they made a mistake, then just scamper off without an apology.

The rest of the post quoted still highlights the need for the REAL SOLUTION and that is "Strict law enforcement and driver education" applied to all road users. Not just cars, not just MCs, but all vehicles.
*snip*
Most developed countries can do it, so why can't the Philippines.

Like I mentioned, part of the culture is the root problem. The "Garapal", "Pasaway" portion, to be precise. Other countries can do it because they have a different culture. Mas marunong silang mahiya kapag gumagawa ng katarantaduhan sa harap ng ibang tao. I don't understand why, but Filipinos act like this whenever outside the country, but back here, wala, balik sa pagiging garapal at walanghiya.

[yapoy86]

dapat i ban yang mga underbones na yan sa MAJOR highways.. just like they are banned on SLEX, NLEX, SCTEX at kung ano pang TEX... not because they can maintain 60 - 100 kph speed they can use the highways!! remember they are not stable at these speeds unlike those big bikes with 400cc engine and above...

madaming alternate routes!! so banning them on edsa and C5 should not be an issue kasi madami pa pwede daanan..

madami kasi nag momotor papasok sa office eh naka motor na nga late pa bumangon papasok sa office kaya nag mamadali!! dyan na sila nakakaperwisyo at nakakadisgrasya pero noong wala pa syang motor maaga gumigising para mag commute

[eojlin]

Hi Leviticus and Joned,

Do you have to be very rude?

Ganyan ba talaga mga riders?! Ganyan ba kayo lahat?

Pardon me, but, it's like your posts got more distasteful messages than sense.

You do have an option to ignore me than be boisterous.
Can't you hold yourselves?

Ganyan din ba kayo sa kalsada? I hope not.
Could this be one of the reasons why we should ban underbones in EDSA and C5? (just kidding)



Yung mga nabanggit nyo, mga ideas nyo... sa tingin nyo ba, kayo lang ang nakaisip ng mga yan. Sa tingin nyo ba walang sumubok nyan?



Leviticus, i shared supporting ideas dun sa mga highlighted messages ko, could you read them first before spitting? Paki basa ulit, kasi parang ang layo ng mga sagot mo. Ano yung tungkol sa, ang karamihan - kasi iba yung context sa post ko e? Ikaw, sa tingin mo, kaya mo bang gawin yung mga pinapagawa mo sa mga traffic enforcers; hanggang gaano katagal?
(on your "POSSIBILITY") Minsan nakakaawa din yung iba sa mga traffic enforcers (maaaring hindi lahat); nag-t-trabaho ng matino pilit hahabol sa mga violators, binabastos naman ng marami sa kalsada. My point is, hindi basta-basta nating sasabihin na gawin nila ang lahat, lalo na sa sitwasyon ng traffic sa EDSA at C5.
http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showp...&postcount=289
Any suggestions kung paano yung "fix law enforcement"? Yung hindi pa sana nasusubukan dito sa Metro Manila.


Joned, you still seem to be ignoring some messages and missing the point, read back.
I am patriot and I won't let you change that. You're dwelling on what band aids are and what are not - do that somewhere else.

...
But the mere act of catching a few is enough to keep the majority following the laws.
...

If few is too few, it won't change our situation.
Gusto mo bang mag-wish sa genie na sana hindi na pasaway mga Pinoy sa Pinas; mag wish ka na rin na sana dumami ang gustong maging pulis o traffic enforcer para possible na yung mag-assign ng ideal number of TE's sa mga kalsada (hindi kelangang maghanap ng 1:1).
Plus, may shortage pa tayo sa kapulisan at traffic enforcers, baka pwedeng mag-apply kayo (as in siryoso), mukang kaya nyo mga sinasabi nyo e.

Galit din ako sa trapo ("lousy mentality"). Lalo na yung ang daming salita na kaya daw gawin ito, madali lang daw ang implementasyon ng naisip nya, enough ang number ng kapulisan natin, at kung anu-ano pa.
Pero sa tutuo, hindi pala feasible mga panukala nila, nag-aksaya lang ng panahon at gumastos.
I'm asking you guys to be more realistic.
Think of things that really can be implemented; at, yung hindi masyadong matakaw sa budget.
Sana hindi tayo puro salita. Kung tutuong madali ilatag at ipasakatuparan ang mga sinasabi nyo, walang dahilan para hindi ko kayo suportahan.



For highway lanes and lane splitting... on the average, developed countries implement a 3.4 to 3.7 meters of lane width. Sa tingin nyo, gaano kalaki lanes sa EDSA at C5?
"Lane splitting by motorcycles is generally legal in Europe, and in Japan and several other countries, and is illegal in many U.S. states, but is considered lawful in California..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting
(So, depende pala sa mga kalsada at sa traffic. So, kelangan alam natin kung ano ang meron tayo, kung ano ang sitwasyon natin, at kung ano ang pwede sa atin. Wag puro angas.)