Which would you buy?

[mazdamazda]

maybe they should starting selling these in the USA:

[Jun aka Pekto]

maybe they should starting selling these in the USA:

You got that right. The Focus here's a little stale. Actually, it'a little more than moldy. Who's Lynx?

[orly_andico]

the lynx is the 2003.5 mazda protege mp3 with the 140-ish FS-DE 2.0L engine and the racing hart wheels, definitely available in the US

[orly_andico]

also i think the 180hp 1.8L toyota is some form of the MR2 with the very late model 4AGE with VVT-i. i believe this is a circa 1998 engine.

the typical 4AGE is a 1.6L, not VVTi, with wide-spaced DOHC valve angle, and puts out 150+ hp out of 1.6L

not as much hp as the supposed 160hp honda B16A 1.6L though although less revvy.

[redorange]

The Toyota 1.8L is in the Lotus Elise and it was detuned to go on the Matrix and Corolla XRS. Mitsu. 1.6L is the 4g92 which was never used in the US but it was on the Mitsu. Mirage Asti in Japan. But, I was using those as examples of small displacement making more power than the big displacement US engines. Before the last generation Camaro GM used a 305ci/5L V8 that had all of 170hp on that model. Ford used a 305ci/5.0L V8 with 225hp. During that same time Acura had the Integra GSR with 1.8L and 170hp and later the Type R with 190hp. The 4g92 from Mitsu. also came out during that same time. GM still had their 2.3L with 170hp that shook the paint off your car. But they fixed that by putting balance shafts on it and detuned it to 120-140hp.

The QR25 on the Altima actually makes 175hp.

[AG4]

Mitsu. 1.6L is the 4g92 which was never used in the US but it was on the Mitsu. Mirage Asti in Japan.

I think the only 4G92 1.6 liter Mirages in Japan were the 175hp DOHC MIVEC powered sports models...
Mirage Asti RS MIVEC/ RX-R MIVEC

...and the Mirage Cyborg ZR


Regular models used a 115hp DOHC version of the 4G15 instead of the SOHC 4G92 used in export markets...

The QR25 on the Altima actually makes 175hp.

I think 165 hp is the new SAE hp raiting.

[Jun aka Pekto]

That's the most pogi Mirage I've ever seen. Japan-market only?

[niky]

The Altima's QR25DE was supposed to make 180-185 hp, but it got downgraded to 175 when tests with complete emissions compliance equipment and accessories were done. I don't doubt it would be downgraded to 165 under the new SAE ratings, as the base hp for the non-Spec V version in the Sentra is only rated at that.

The 180hp Celica engine, the Mitsubishi MIVEC 1.6 at 170hp and the 170 hp B16 never met US requirements, I think. The Honda B16 slipped in with 160hp and the Toyota engine still kept 170 or so... sad that it's now 164...

[basti08]

*niky, 90 model Integras used the B16 a 1.6L 170hp engine, the boxy Integras im pertaining.

the new Maxima looks nice too.

[redorange]

Correction, the Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine still passes US emissions because it's used by Lotus on the Elise and Toyota on the Matrix and Corolla. Honda stopped using the B series engine in the US because they switched to the K series which had VTEC for both intake and exhaust just like the Toyota engine. But before they discontinued it, the B16 was used on the 6th gen EJ model Civic Si. The Mitsu. 4g92 was not used because it was on the Mirage and putting the engine on the US version would have made it a competitor to the 1st and 2nd gen Eclipse(non-turbo version) which only had 140hp.

[redorange]

Nissan did not have to retest their engines because they were not using loopholes in the SAE standards during their test. So the QR still makes 175hp and the VQ depending on the version makes 265 as a 4.0L on trucks and 300hp as a 3.5L on the 350Z.

[noreturn]

Or how about the engine in my e36 M3? 3.0L for 240hp, an engine designed in the early 90's and then watered down to meet US federal standards. How much does GM need to make 260hp? 3.8L and a supercharger. That same engine will only make 200 horses N/A. This is OVER TEN YEARS LATER, and they still can't make a displacement-efficient engine.

Their 5.3L engine only makes a measly 303 hp. BMW can make 30 more with a 3.2L engine (the current M3 engine).

Yeah, I agree that most races are on the freeway. But you're forgetting so many things. First of all, a Corvette is in no where NEAR the price range of an EVO or STi. Second, in an equally priced street race, between, say a stock '06 Civic Si and a stock '06 Mustang V6, the Civic already wins on both weight AND power. And it does it with a 2L engine. The V6? 4.0L. Twice the displacement for less the power.

Not only that, but the engine will still run 10 years later. Why do Japanese and German cars still hold their value years later? Because they stand the test of time. They're not economy wagons that use a bus engine to do a car engine's work.

Maybe you would rather choose price over efficiency, finesse, reliability, resale value, and overall good engineering. I wouldn't.

[Jun aka Pekto]

Or how about the engine in my e36 M3? 3.0L for 240hp, an engine designed in the early 90's and then watered down to meet US federal standards. How much does GM need to make 260hp? 3.8L and a supercharger. That same engine will only make 200 horses N/A. This is OVER TEN YEARS LATER, and they still can't make a displacement-efficient engine.

Their 5.3L engine only makes a measly 303 hp. BMW can make 30 more with a 3.2L engine (the current M3 engine).

As far as efficiency per displacement, I agree overseas companies make better ones. No arguments there.

Yeah, I agree that most races are on the freeway. But you're forgetting so many things. First of all, a Corvette is in no where NEAR the price range of an EVO or STi. Second, in an equally priced street race, between, say a stock '06 Civic Si and a stock '06 Mustang V6, the Civic already wins on both weight AND power. And it does it with a 2L engine. The V6? 4.0L. Twice the displacement for less the power.

First thing to remember is there's no fair bracket out in the street. There's no price fairness nor equality in engine displacement/hp. You come to the party running and gunning with what you have. It's up to you to decide if you think you can take out that Vette on the next lane with whatever you're driving. All that matters is who won and who ate his dust. The only ones who do the pondering afterwards are the losers.

Being a college town, I see a lot of young kids with tuner cars and not just rice rockets here. Many V8 owners also mod their cars much like those with souped up Hondas and Mitsus. It's not just a souped up rice rocket versus a factory stock V8. There's also plenty of modded V8's here and rice rocket owners don't have a monopoly on NOS systems.

By that I'm not saying a Corvette will automatically win. On the contrary, I've seen a beat-up (with right front bumper almost falling apart), late-80's, unassuming (sleeper) Dodge Colt embarrass a late model Corvette.

There's not too many V6 Mustangs here. Most are the V8's and most likely modded beyond the stock 300hp. Generally, if the driver looks like a "grandpa" or a teen (driving Daddy's Mustang), it's probably unmodded. If it's driven by what looks like young adults/college kids, 50-50 says it's modded. That beatup Dodge Colt seemed like an easy victim until I saw how the driver and his companion behaved. Shades on, hip hop music blaring, unmoving postures...... I read that correctly and backed off. Too bad for the Corvette driver though.

Not only that, but the engine will still run 10 years later. Why do Japanese and German cars still hold their value years later? Because they stand the test of time. They're not economy wagons that use a bus engine to do a car engine's work.

I still see a lot of 5.0 Mustangs and Z-28's from the late 80's here. They're in varying degrees of state with some pretty beat up while others have new paintjobs and looked almost showroom new. I see a lot more pony cars from that era still running fine than any BMW. Maybe in California where there are more import car owners to begin with. Go to neighboring Nevada (esp up north) and it's V8 country. Take Fallon, I still see a lot of 70's V8 cars runningwith many restored to mint condition. The only Japanese car from that era is my Uncle's Datsun F10. Same goes for cars in the 80's. I still see my old 86 Nissan Pulsar NX once in a while. But, there aren't many 80's Japanese cars around such as the Honda CRX which was hugely popular at that time. Most of them have been junked long ago while many people hang on to their V8's. I even see many Dodge minivans from the 80's still running. With pickups, GMC's from the late 70's, 80's and 90's are very popular.

Value is relative. I still have all my cars from 1991 to the present (see my sig). The only exception is our old minivan. When I buy a car, I use it until it doesn't run anymore. I don't think about whether I'll trade it in or sell it.

Maybe you would rather choose price over efficiency, finesse, reliability, resale value, and overall good engineering. I wouldn't.

I've driven only one car that seems to fit your statement above. I test drove the Corolla XRS last year when it was still advertised with 170hp from a 1.8L engine.

My impression of it from the start is where's the power? I had to literally abuse that car to eke some performance out of it. I even had the sales agent almost yelling at me to mash the gas pedal down. Maybe it's just me. But, pushing a car to within a few seconds of blowing a gasket is not my idea of performance. If you like that style of driving, knock yourself out.

I prefer 4-cylinder cars with some kind of assist from either a turbocharger or supercharger because gobs of usable torque and hp are right there (turbo lag aside).

Between a Cobalt SS Supercharged and a Civic Si at a stoplight, my money's on the Cobalt.....

[noreturn]

First thing to remember is there's no fair bracket out in the street. There's no price fairness nor equality in engine displacement/hp. You come to the party running and gunning with what you have. It's up to you to decide if you think you can take out that Vette on the next lane with whatever you're driving. All that matters is who won and who ate his dust. The only ones who do the pondering afterwards are the losers.

Wow. Thank you for the Fast and the Furious monologue. I really need someone to dramatize street racing for me.

You're missing the point. Yes, you can compare any two cars you want on a street. Let's take a Kia Pride vs. a Lamborghini Murcielargo. You're not proving anything by pitting something that is obviously in a completely different class, hence the comparison between two like cars. Actually, the I4 Civic Si, should be at a disadvantage to the larger displacement V6 Stang. But it's not, due to good engineering.

Many V8 owners also mod their cars much like those with souped up Hondas and Mitsus.

You're getting way off track here. I never said the Mustang didn't have huge (factory untapped) potential. It does. But we're not talking about the aftermarket market's engineering prowess. We're talking about GM and Ford being able (unable rather) to get a good product out the factory doors ON THEIR OWN.

It's not just a souped up rice rocket versus a factory stock V8. There's also plenty of modded V8's here and rice rocket owners don't have a monopoly on NOS systems.

I didn't pit those two together. The Civic Si is factory built and is naturally aspirated. The Mustang is presumably built for sport as well. And, by the way NOS is brand. And nobody that likes their car uses spray.

By that I'm not saying a Corvette will automatically win. On the contrary, I've seen a beat-up (with right front bumper almost falling apart), late-80's, unassuming (sleeper) Dodge Colt embarrass a late model Corvette.

There's not too many V6 Mustangs here. Most are the V8's and most likely modded beyond the stock 300hp. Generally, if the driver looks like a "grandpa" or a teen (driving Daddy's Mustang), it's probably unmodded. If it's driven by what looks like young adults/college kids, 50-50 says it's modded. That beatup Dodge Colt seemed like an easy victim until I saw how the driver and his companion behaved. Shades on, hip hop music blaring, unmoving postures...... I read that correctly and backed off. Too bad for the Corvette driver though.

Lots more of you completely missing the point...

I still see a lot of 5.0 Mustangs and Z-28's from the late 80's here. They're in varying degrees of state with some pretty beat up while others have new paintjobs and looked almost showroom new. I see a lot more pony cars from that era still running fine than any BMW. Maybe in California where there are more import car owners to begin with.

Yeah, this is probably true.

Go to neighboring Nevada (esp up north) and it's V8 country. Take Fallon, I still see a lot of 70's V8 cars runningwith many restored to mint condition.

Restored doesn't count. Restored cars didn't last from when the factory made it until present. Restoring a car says nothing about the engineering of GM or Ford.

The only Japanese car from that era is my Uncle's Datsun F10.

In the world? First you say cars from Nevada, then you want to talk about Japanese cars in the scope of what you have personal contact with?

Same goes for cars in the 80's. I still see my old 86 Nissan Pulsar NX once in a while. But, there aren't many 80's Japanese cars around such as the Honda CRX which was hugely popular at that time. Most of them have been junked long ago while many people hang on to their V8's. I even see many Dodge minivans from the 80's still running. With pickups, GMC's from the late 70's, 80's and 90's are very popular.

That's great. But your personal observations mean next to nothing when you realize what the market value of a 10 year old American car is. There's a reason Jap and German cars depreciate slower. There's a reason that the market, not just you with your clearly biased opinion, is willing to pay higher prices for Japanese cars.

Value is relative. I still have all my cars from 1991 to the present (see my sig). The only exception is our old minivan. When I buy a car, I use it until it doesn't run anymore. I don't think about whether I'll trade it in or sell it.

And that's your choice. But your personal attachment to your vehicle says nothing about how much it's worth. Sure, I could drive a Skoda to work and school every day, it'll get me there. But do I want to deal with a crappy car breaking down on me? Do I want to deal with the increasing faults that come with aging cars? Not really. Trends show that American cars have more of these faults than Japanese cars. The market value reflects these trends.

I shouldn't have to explain simple economics to you.

I've driven only one car that seems to fit your statement above. I test drove the Corolla XRS last year when it was still advertised with 170hp from a 1.8L engine.

My impression of it from the start is where's the power? I had to literally abuse that car to eke some performance out of it. I even had the sales agent almost yelling at me to mash the gas pedal down. Maybe it's just me. But, pushing a car to within a few seconds of blowing a gasket is not my idea of performance. If you like that style of driving, knock yourself out.

I prefer 4-cylinder cars with some kind of assist from either a turbocharger or supercharger because gobs of usable torque and hp are right there (turbo lag aside).

The corolla XRS is a marketing ploy. It had crap torque, so it makes sense that you wouldn't feel the acceleration. Of course there's more to a car than torque, but i'll take your word for it that it was a bad experience. In my opinion, none of the "sport" Corollas really perform. A Corolla is still a budget car, comparable to the Ford Focus. Besides even American cars have their exception to the rule - Z06.

Between a Cobalt SS Supercharged and a Civic Si at a stoplight, my money's on the Cobalt.....

That's great. But the Civic puts out more horses without a blower, and is about 100 lbs leaner. I wouldn't bet on the race because chances are the Si would be driven by an idiot who looks forward to Fast and the Furious 3, and the Cobalt would be driven by a moron who bought a Cobalt.

[Jun aka Pekto]

You're missing the point.

I probably did and in a lot of the discussion here. Sorry if it turned out that way. In any case, I never watched any of those movies.

[AG4]

How much does GM need to make 260hp? 3.8L and a supercharger. That same engine will only make 200 horses N/A. This is OVER TEN YEARS LATER, and they still can't make a displacement-efficient engine.

GM has replaced the supercharged 3800 V6 engine in most mid-size/large models with the smaller naturally-aspirated 3.6 liter DOHC V6 or the larger 303hp 5.3 liter V8.
The $24,330 Pontiac Grand Prix GT is the last GM car I know with a supercharged 3800 V6.

GM also has newer naturally-aspirated engines...
DOHC 3.6 liter V6 that produces 240hp or 255hp (dependeing on the car model)
Other newer GM engines:
240hp LZ8/ LZ9 3900 V6
224hp LZ4 3500 V6 (base '07 Saturn Aura)
210hp 2.8 liter DOHC V6
171hp 2.4 liter DOHC inline-4

Their 5.3L engine only makes a measly 303 hp. BMW can make 30 more with a 3.2L engine (the current M3 engine).

Comparing Chevy & Pontiac's 303hp 5.3 liter V8 to the more expensive high performance BMW M3?
Check out Cadillac, their 4.6 liter DOHC Northstar produces 320hp and their supercharged 4.4 liter Northstar produces 469hp.

High output small displacement engines with low torque aren't really ideal for large cars.

[redorange]

If life was just driving in a straight line then GM and Ford would still be number one and two in sales. Unfortunately for them people actually have to turn in corners. If all I had to do was drive stop light to stop light and not turn then I would get drag slicks and get the most powerful engine and shove it in my car. But, such is not life as we know it and you have to get a vehicle that handles everything equally well or as close to it as possible. Unless of course all the streets in Arizona are straight lines with no curves.

Yes, you do have to rev the Toyota but you are far from blowing the gasket on it because it has been detuned for the Corolla. You would have a greater chance of blowing the gasket on your supercharged Cobalt. The technology(VVT) in the Toyota engine has been around for 15 years when Honda first used it on the NSX and what does GM and Ford do they wait until 2005/2006 to use it. DC has to use MB designs to get things right with the 300 and messed up the Charger by making it 4 doors. There is a reason why the Koreans have over taken Ford and GM go ask the consumers.

The Cobalt may quicker but it is already supercharged so what else could you do to it? Increase boost, add nitrous maybe. I take the Civic with 197hp stock add a turbo and nitrous and it's got more than the Cobalt in hp. Otherwise leave it stock and still beat the Cobalt in everything but the quarter mile.

Jun aka Pekto, just a question if you think domestics make great products why do you own three imports? I consider the Contour an import because it's a Mondeo designed in Germany using a euro engine so Ford(US) couldn't mess it up as much.

[Jun aka Pekto]

If life was just driving in a straight line then GM and Ford would still be number one and two in sales. Unfortunately for them people actually have to turn in corners. If all I had to do was drive stop light to stop light and not turn then I would get drag slicks and get the most powerful engine and shove it in my car. But, such is not life as we know it and you have to get a vehicle that handles everything equally well or as close to it as possible. Unless of course all the streets in Arizona are straight lines with no curves.

It depends on location then. Here, it's normally a stoplight grand prix. So straightline performance takes precedence. Those who makes a turn normally indicate they're either tucking tail between their legs or just quitting because they reached the point where they need to turn.

But, in mountainous locations like Denver, Reno, and the Lake Tahoe area, there's a big number of STi's and Evo's. The terrain there is alpine and ideal for AWD and turbos.

Yes, you do have to rev the Toyota but you are far from blowing the gasket on it because it has been detuned for the Corolla. You would have a greater chance of blowing the gasket on your supercharged Cobalt. The technology(VVT) in the Toyota engine has been around for 15 years when Honda first used it on the NSX and what does GM and Ford do they wait until 2005/2006 to use it. DC has to use MB designs to get things right with the 300 and messed up the Charger by making it 4 doors. There is a reason why the Koreans have over taken Ford and GM go ask the consumers.

I've driven the new Civic Si as well and that one's a joy to drive compared to the Corolla. The Civic had a pleasant feel that doesn't really feel like I'm abusing it. The power spread seems more balanced. The Corolla....... it really feels like I'm flogging it. The Corolla felt labored. Maybe it's just the difference in hp.

That Cobalt may quicker but it is already supercharged so what else could you do to it? Increase boost, add nitrous maybe. I take the Civic with 197hp stock add a turbo and nitrous and it's got more than the Cobalt in hp. Otherwise leave it stock and still beat the Cobalt in everything but the quarter mile.

It certainly can be improved. After all, my 1991 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo at stock condition was already turbocharged and made 190hp with 205lb-ft torque. Yet, I had it modded to HKS Stage 4 which brought it to an advertised 281hp (for $6k).

Jun aka Pekto, just a question if you think domestics make great products why do you own three imports? I consider the Contour an import because it's a Mondeo designed in Germany using a euro engine so Ford(US) couldn't mess it up as much.

If there was a 252hp (or even the older 240hp) G6 GTP at the time, I probably would've had it in the running. As it was, I tested the older G6 GT. The GTP version reached town a month after we bought our Sonata. Besides, my wife is the one who made the final choice for the Sonata. My personal choice was the M/T Mazda 6 V6 (too cramped in back). If it wasn't for the Sonata's quite decent acceleration, I probably would've fought my wife over the choice, even with the modified 10yr/100k miles warranty (bumper to bumper) and 4 years free oil changes.

We skipped the Altima 3.5SE because a Pinay friend had one that had engine problems, had to be towed from her garage to the dealer service shop, and it wasn't even a year old at the time.

We also looked at the V6 300C. Wife said it was too big and didn't even try to sit inside.

[BlueBimmer]

^yes americans love their torque, thats why they love their V8s. kaya nga MUSCLE car e, torque is more muscle than horsepower imo

[redorange]

Nope still 175 for the QR Nissan did not retest because they didn't use the loophole. The Cyborg and Asti was also sold in other right hand drive countries like the UK, Australia, and Hong Kong (if am not mistaken).

From the Wall Street Journal regarding the new SAE test as it applies to Nissan:

Nissan has propelled its recent recovery in the U.S. market by offering models with more horsepower than its main rivals in several important market segments. But since Jan. 1, when testing to the new standard was required, Nissan has only come up with one new engine application to test under the new rules, says company spokesman Dean Case. That model, the Infiniti FX 45 luxury crossover sport utility, is rated at 320 horsepower for 2006, using the new SAE rules. The 2005 model was rated at 315 horsepower -- but Mr. Case says the 2006 would have had an even number if it had been evaluated under the old regime.

As you can see it even gained 5 horsepower for the FX45.