Japanese vs European Car Reliability

[niky]

my comment was in reference to yours about our cars here being weak/soft. what did you mean by weak/soft? if you meant underpowered, you are mistaken. if you meant underformer, you are also mistaken. tell me one car that was mass produced, no special requirements in purchasing it from the dealer lots, sub-$150k that was made in Europe and Japan that can compete with the C6-Z06 Vette stock for stock?

Ah, okay... now that the rest of the misunderstanding is out of the way...

What I meant is that the driving environment is relatively soft.

You can tell a lot about local conditions by the common car. US road conditions involve long, broad highways and long distance travelling. Thus, there is a premium placed on cars with good torque and long gearing, as well as a soft and cossetting suspension. Gas is relatively cheap, so engines tend to be bigger.

Japanese conditions involve well-paved but narrow and winding urban and provincial roads. Suspensions are stiff and tight (might be harsh and brittle for some), engines are smaller (for economy in urban conditions), gearing is tighter (in some cases, with second gear topping at under 50 mph, whereas most cars get over 60 mph in second gear) to maximize the power from the small plants. There may be a 180-200 km/h speedlimiter on the vehicle, to meet local regulations.

European conditions are a mix of the two. While you have long, well paved highways, which require long legs on even the most under-endowed cars, you also have small twisty roads, lots of them, which require a stiff suspension and good handling. Besides this, you have the ruts and potholes of third-world type roads in many coutnries, as well as tooth-rattling cobblestones, thus, this stiff suspension should also be supple.

*Philippine conditions are horrible, rough roads, tight, winding ones, slow traffic. We tend towards Japanese vehicles because of the size of the roads and conditions, but because of the axle-breaking conditions on some roads, as well as the possibility of floods and difficulty of maintenance in the outlying provinces, we tend to go for crude 70's style Japanese trucks. The simpler and cruder the diesel plant, the better...

Of course, that's not to say that all US, Japanese and European cars follow these rules, but in general, you can feel the conditions that they were meant for. And the stereotypes no longer apply to manufactured vehicles, as makers are increasingly looking at making them for the world market. Like you said, the Z06 is a class-beater, even by European standards, despite complaints by said Europeans about the super-Corvette's poor tractability (it's hard to read it when pushing hard, as it doesn't communicate as well as, say, a Ferrari).

Under 150k? That's too broad. And considering mass-produced is a relative term, you could include a lot of Nobles, Caterhams (they've sold a lot of them), Lotuses, etcetera etcetera that are ostensibly faster than the Z06 on a handling track, and cheaper... no special conditions to buy, either... but of course, on a fast track or a highway, they'd get blown away, and they're not as comfortable as the American super GT. But if we really want to get nitpicky, half the price of the Corvette will get you a nice GSXR that will out-accelerate anything on the planet.

Then again, while that makes the Corvette two times too expensive, it makes the European supercars look two hundred times too expensive. Everything is relative... :lol:

And take note, the differences in general driving conditions tend to be overstated by Euro-philes as meaning their cars are better. Which is bull. It just means that their cars are designed for a wider variety of road conditions than most. Which is why, since the 90's, US and Japanese automakers have been focusing on developing suspension tuning in Europe, particularly at the Nurburgring... as they've now found that if a car can drive well and fast on the Nurb, it can cope with nearly anything. The Z06 and a lot of the new Caddys have seen development time here.

[mdc]

hahahaha . . . biased - european cars!!!

but with all honesty, most euro cars aren't meant for our tropical weather! hence, parts give in first as compared to japanese counterparts

perfect example are the conti tires on bmw. they are expensive sets of rubber but usually perform behind the japanese counterparts like yokohama, and so on

more so, japanese parts are cheaper but can' t say the same for their use and performance

but euro cars vs japanese cars, totally different topic

[orly_andico]

StraightSix was right on the money.

"European" ought to include Seat, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Rover, Opel, Fiat..

Sebastian Loeb notwithstanding, the above-mentioned brands aren't exactly marquee brands. In fact I keep wondering why Citroen does so well in WRC (and the Mitsubishi Evo keeps dropping out due to mechanical problems) but on the street, in reality, Citroen's are worse reliability-wise.

When you say "European car" in the Philippines you always end up with a BMW or Merc. Which is not representative of European cars at all. Pinoys in the Philippines who buy Euro cars don't want a Seat or a Skoda, they want a BMW or a Merc. Hence the bottom-of-the-barrel sales figures for Peugeot locally.

[1979]

Well, in terms of PHILIPPINE setting, I've had 2 brand new Japanese cars -- probably the most "reliable" ones - a 1991 Toyota Corolla XL and then a 1996 Honda LXi AT, and honestly, my 1985 Mercedes W124 has outlived both!

Both previous cars are now with relatives, and I see them every so often. The differences are glaring. The Benz is still like brand new, the suspension, the paint, the interiors -- btw, maintenance is very affordable because I go to this honest independent Benz specialist (a change oil and filter sets me back P1735 including tuneup) who do the repairs under my watch, and I buy the parts myself. The two Japanese are pretty much nearing their bitter end -- terrible NVH levels, the door locks and windows have broken countless times, the doors themselves sound tinny, (the Benz doors close like a refrigerator still). I do have a Japanese SUV, a V6 Montero -- now that is another story.

IMHO, in the LONG run, you cannot go wrong with a properly maintained Mercedes Benz. I do not know about other European brands, but heck, millions of taxi operators in Europe can't be wrong! Mine has 140tkm and it shows no signs of slowing down....it's built like a tank!

[the josh]

I have both and they are both reliable:
96' Toyota Surf/4runner, 2.7l 4x4 auto-no problems at 155Ks, just the usual change oil
85' Merc 190E 2.0l auto-just installed new timing chain at 245Ks, transmission overhaul at 200ks., and the usual change oil. It's ready for another 200ks!:

[1979]

^^

yup it's like having the best of both worlds.... European cars and Japanese SUVs...my latest car (97 E230) is still fresh at 50tkm.... onwards to several hundred thousand kilometers more!!!

[the josh]

I'm also considering trading my 190e for the latest lexus IS250 not bec. of reliability but simply bec. it's really damn gorgeous!
http://www.lexus.com/models/IS/

[n2knee]

yeah..kung reliability ang pag uusapan euro,

that used to be true two decades ago.

[mbeige]

A different perspective on this: the European cars two decades ago are still running, up and about. How about the Japanese cars?

[n2knee]

A different perspective on this: the European cars two decades ago are still running, up and about. How about the Japanese cars?

it's not fair to ask that question since two (or even three) decades ago there were hardly any japanese premium cars in the market. they were mostly selling economy cars and people tend to junk these cars when yearly maintenance and repair costs are more than the value of the cars. the cars they produced had no heritage. they were still trying to find their niche. think of them as the kia/hyundai of today. twenty years from now, would you want to spend repair bills on a kia/hyundai that you acquired so cheaply?

euro cars particularly bmw, porsche, ferrari and mercedes-benz on the other hand have been established as premium/luxury brands during that period. they produced cars that are now considered vintage. they had halo cars and these cars are more collectible than the japanese economy cars built in the same era, hence you still them today.

for comparison's sake european cars (mainly mercedes-benz and bmw) built in the 80's were more reliable than japanese cars built in the same era, but throughout the years japanese cars (particularly toyota and honda) have managed to surpass their european counterparts. i guess a better question should be, "how many miles or kilometers did your car log before you rebuilt the engine/tranny or before it crap out on you and you decided to junk it?"

[n2knee]

actually the powertrain on these euro cars are reliable. they just have a bad reputation for having these electrical gremlins.

[SNAKE V6]

Yeah, that's quite hard to establish especially with the quality the Japs are currnelty making. You still see a lot of old Euros, as well as old Americans because they are keepers in a sense that they are collectibles, they were topnotch in there times. You see lots of Japs in the shops because alot more people buy them, thus the higher percentage of failure. Europeans also tend to be more expensive, due to more costly/sturdier parts. Which contributes to there reliability. Maybe after 15-20 years there will be a better figure to compare bimmers, mercs, etc with lexus, acura, etc.

[niky]

You can't honestly compare expensive premium market cars to bottom-feeder economy cars of the same time period. It just doesn't work.

How about: How many Opel Mantas and Rekords are still running? Or how many Ford Escorts are still on the road, compared to 70's Toyota Corollas and Coronas?

And that's still not a fair example. Living in Asia, it's easy to find parts for the latter, and nigh on impossible to find parts for the former.

Give it ten years from now... how many current Volkswagen Golfs and New Beetles will you see on the road compared to Mazda3s? Wanna place bets?

[niko21]

a no brainer

[KBR]

WOW!? man, ang luffet ng mga posts dito ha. medyo maiinit ang labanan ng mga Hapon at Europa! lolz! pero may mga tama at may mali din sa mga infos.

anywayz, for me, hands down walang tatalo sa mga Japanese cars. specially when it comes to overall Value, Quality and Reliability. I mean, no offense sa mga Euro fan bois, astig din ang mga Euro's in terms of Style, Performance and Luxury (noong araw ha, panahon ni Makoy, Aquino at ni Ramos! JK!). pero pag dating sa long term Reliability, mas matatag pa din ang Hapon. *pero bago mag react.. astig pa din ang European pag dating sa Style, Luxury and Performance..... except sa Reliability. lolz!* sorry, opinion ko lang yun, pero yun ang totoo.

I know this since I'm a Mechanic / Technician for 10 yrs. and I have a pretty long resume on working on both Japanese and European cars. and Ive seen and done it all (any Jap or Euro cars, from 1970 to current).

heres the list of some cars that I work on.. di pa kasama American cars diyan!! (and they are worst!! lolz!!!).

*Japanese*
Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan/Infinity, Subaru, & Hyundai/Kia (oops kasama pa pala Korea!! lolz!)

*European*
Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar, Volvo, Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, Land Rover/Range Rover & Saab.

anywayz, sa lahat ng mga kotse na nagawa ko, 80-85% ng mga kotse na may matinding Reliability issues ay ang mga European cars. specially sa mga European cars na ginawa from 1995-present. and mga most honorable mentions sa mga yan ay ang Mercedes-Benz(1997-present), BMW(2000-present), & Volkswagen(1995-present). basically eto ang mga top 3 European cars na nagpa yaman sa akin.. joke! but seriously, problematic talaga ang mg ito and also, hindi na ganun kaganda ang kanilang "Quality", not like how it was 2 Decades ago. kaya karamihan ng mga bumibili or na le-lease ng mga European cars dito ay hindi nila pinapatagal ng 3-5 yrs ang ownership , and they try to keep the mileage LOW!! lolz! talagang mga swapang nga eh! kasi alam nila na pag luma na ang Euro nila, doon na dadating ang matinding Depreciation at problema! kaya minsan lang nila ginagamit ang oto, or binebenta na nila agad ang Chedeng or Bimmers nila pag malapit ng ma expire ang Waranty!! lolz! kaya ang damin USED Luxury cars dito sa US, halos lahat 30-50% less ang presyo compared to when it was new! kaya ang daming "feeling" mayaman dito! lolz! mga wala namang pera na pang repair or pang Oil change ang mga kups! lolz! kaya an daming may utang dito!

and as far as Japanese cars naman, halos lahat ng mga Japanese cars na nagawa ko is either coz of Scheduled Preventive Maintenance, Oil Changes, Tune-Up's, normal wear and tear of the Axles, Brakes & Shocks/Struts. or just a Basic or High-Performance Upgrades / Modifications. yun lang, wala ng iba. kahit na luma pa ang Japanese car (1980's-1990's), magugulat ka nalang na halos lahat ng mga Electrical Sensors, Switches, Wiring Harness.. kahit na ultimong bumbilya, ay Original pa! lolz! kahit na makina/transmission, may mga iba umaabot ng 200K-300K MILES (hindi KM's ha.. MILES). at ang mga most honorable mentions dito sa mga Japanese cars pag dating sa overall Value, Quality, Reliability and Dependability ay ang Toyota, Honda, & Nissan. astig din ang Mitsubishi and Mazda, pero mas lamang ang na unang tatlo (same din sa Luxury Division ng mga yun). and mas lalo na pag ang Japanese car is made from 1995-present.. maganda talaga ang Quality and Reliability. wala kang makikitang Japanese car (from the bottom of the line to the top of the line) na may Wiring dillema, short ang bumbilya, palyado Window Regulator, sira ABS sensor, etc.. etc.... pag Hapon, asahan mo lahat ng piyesa gagana at tatagal. kung may masira man, ang piyesa at labor ng pag pagawa ay hindi masakit sa bulsa. ang Oil Change $20-$60 lang, compared sa ibang Euro (most notably BMW) na aabot ng $150-$250 USD para lang mag pa Oil Change!! lolz!

also, it doesnt matter din kung ang kotse ay nasa Pilipinas or dito sa US. in fact, mas grabe pa ang Driving conditions sa US kasi mas malupit ang Weather dito (remember, malamig na kung malamig.. sobra! specilly pag Winter. and mainit na kung mainit.. sobra din! specialy pag Summer.) naranasan niyo ba mag drive sa Snow?? at mag drive sa Dessert?? matabunan ng Snow or even Ice ang kotse for even getting stuck in traffic in the Summer time?? and also bumabagyo din dito.. and yes, may mga parte ng mga cities na Bina-baha din (specially sa mga cities near rivers, creeks and lakes. also, mas grabe ang Traffic dito (wala sa kalingkinan ng grabe ng Traffic sa Manila, compared sa LA, SF or from any big cities in the US. (like NY, Detroit or Chicago.. damn grabe din doon). also, the amount of Distance/Miles that every car out here in the US consumes. its too much and too far (average distance that a houshold car will travel in a day is 20-30 miles, multiply that to 5-7 days. and an average distance that a car will travel is 12K miles or more in 1 yr. *ang average ko sa sasakyan ko, 15K miles A YEAR. ang nanay ko, 20-25K miles a year.. and dont even ask why and how much $$$ she spends on Fuel.. she has a Hummer H3 btw). and also, ang kalsada sa US, again akala ng iba smooth as silk. well, guess what, hindi lahat ng kalsada dito maganda. specially sa mga big cities like LA, SF, NY, etc.. nakapag drive na ba kayo doon??? hindi niyo ba alam na kung gaano ka grabe ang lubak sa mga cities na iyon?? specially pag mabilis pa ang takbo mo (city driving is 30-40 MPH.. convert mo sa KPH yan.) once na may madaanan kang lubak, wawa ang 17" or even 18" rims ng Civic mo kasi baka ma bengkong. sa Freeway palang, jusko may mga parte din ng mga Freeways dito na sobrang sama. meron malubak, meron din na may Pot hole.. yun ang masama. imagine driving 65-75 MPH (again convert that to KPH) at may madaanan kang lubak, slight hump or pot hole sa Freeway. baka mag wish ka sa Wish Ko Lang na sana nasa Edsa ka't mabagal ang takbo ng traffic (kasi hindi stressful sa Suspension & Tires) at sana "stock" nalang ang gulong mo. also, again mas grabe ang Driving conditions dito kasi meron tinatawag na Stop Sign and Stop Lights. halos bawat kanto dito may Stop Sign at bawat intersection may Stop Light, again ang speed limit sa city ay 30-35 MPH (convert to KPH) and residential speed limit is 25 MPH (but believe me, nobody does 25 MPH.. kahit sa residential. mas lalo na dito sa California.. gago mga drivers dito! lolz!). kaya dito sa US, malakas kumita ang mga Brake shop dahil halos lahat ng drivers, malakas gumamit ng Preno. at malakas kumita ang Tire shop, dahil malakas umubos ang mga drivers ng Gulong.


anywayz, mahaba na to, pero ang bottom line ko dito is:

-mas reliable ang Japanese cars, compared to European cars. and if ya'llz want proof? then pls. read Consumer Reports.

-mas grabe at stressfull sa mga kotse (any makes and models) ang Driving conditions dito sa US compared sa Pilipinas. (kasi 4 seasons po ang weather dito, may rough roads, winding roads, uphill & downhill roads, roads going on for miles! (milya milya ang layo! ng bahay mo sa trabaho, eskwela, atbp!) mabilis ang takbo.. mabilis din ang upod sa preno/brekas/gulong!!, mabilis ang takbo.. mas stressed-out ang makina mo at mapapasabak ksa sa pag Oil Change every 3K MILES! tsaka dependent ang mga tao sa kotse dito.. konti lang ang public transportation.. kaya hindi talaga pwedeng wala kang kotse at talagang lalamon ng matinding milyahe at gasolina ang kotse mo!)

-and as far as "standards" YES, mas malaki po ang standards (for safety and overall quality) ng mga kotse na ginagawa, ini-import/export at binebenta dito sa US. at obvious naman po yun eh. and kung may sumablay sa pag gawa, import/export at pag benta ng kotse, ay nire-recall yun at ginagawang Lemon vehicle. at pag Lemon ang kotse mo, tutulungan ka ng gobyerno or ng manufacturer ng kotse na ma repair ang kotse mo or ma re-imburse ka ng pera, para maka bili ka ng mas mahusay na kotse. kaya hindi ka talo. and AFAIK, ang mga Lemon at nire-recall na kotse ay tinatapon at nire-recycle or binebenta (or smuggle.. lolz!) doon sa mga bansa na hindi mahigpit or walang mga "standards" na kung ano ano.


aite, peace.

[KBR]

and also, pahabol pa ulit.

the reason why there are European cars na tumatagal (older generations ha.. yung ka panahonan ni Magellan, Makoy at Ramos) is because that its either they are kept inside the garage for a long time.. or simply not driven that much at all.

also, di talaga pwede i-compare ang isang "High-end" Euro car vs. a regular Joe's Japanese Car. kasi pound for pound, peso for peso, dollar for dollar, sakong bigas sa sakong bigas, eh talagang mas lamang pa din ang Hapon. specially when it comes to Overall Quality, Reliability and Value.

also, again its just my Opinion through my experience, knowledge as a Mechanic / Technician and a European car owner myself. YES I have a 1985 Mercedes-Benz 190E-2.3 (I had TWO actually, one was a '86 190E-2.3). and my family has gone through 7 Mercedes-Benz vehicles:

-1985 W123 300SD
-1985 W123 300D turbo
-1987 W124 300D turbo
-1988 W124 300TE wagon
-2001 ML430 SUV
-and my two 190E's.

and so far, we're only down to 3 Mercedes-Benz vehicles (the ML430, W123 300D turbo and my W201 190E) all of them (including the previous ones) SERVED US WELL! except for ONE!.. that damn 2001 ML430!! which was a Lemon and we're gettin rid of it soon! kaya pinalitan na siya ng Hummer H3.. buti pa yung Hummer, matibay pa! and was 10x better than a damn ML430! lolz!! (pero ididipatsa na din yung W123 300D pati yung project W201 ko.. medyo luma na't gusto kong bumili ng brand new na Toyota Tundra.)

so I guess I know what I'm talkin about. I'm still into older Benzes, specially the older generations (possibly 1995-below *although there are some 1999 M-B models na "medyo" matino pa*) but I feel that they are not the same anymore compared to like.. 15-20 yrs. ago!

but yeh, I used to be a "Die Hard" Mercedes-Benz Enthusiast.. although Im still an MB enthusiast..but not "die hard"!! lolz! wala na eh, Wa Appeal na bro! kaya sa Toyota / Lexus side na ako! lolz!


aite, peace.

[mark_t]

Sir KBR,

Mukhang nag init ka doon ha.

[KBR]

Sir KBR,

Mukhang nag init ka doon ha.

hahaha, wala lang.. binasa ko kasi ang napaka habang thread na parang walang patutunguan. kaya sasagot nalang din ako ng 'sang napaka haaaaabang sagot, para matapos na. sana! lolz!

pero no doubt, maganda din ang Eurpean.. pero mas reliable pa din ang Japanese.. specially in this generation. right here, right now



aite, peace

[Syuryuken]

here's a sh*t list of my Toyota qualms

> front shock absorber replaced
> brake pads replaced during my 20K checkup
> front disc brakes were replaced
> erratic idling / engine bogs down resulting in a drained battery (dirty throttle body)
> tranny bearing needs to be replaced (tranny pulldown is needed)
> aircon doesn't work
> horn doesn't work
> rear shock absorber replaced
> numerous freaking squeaks all over
> low idling sometimes

all of them before the 40K mark

wag mo kasing sabayan ng 6 secs. pag nagdadrive ka

[darksword_08]

dude kasi pag euro car nakamark na sa isipan ng tao na pag euro car gamit mo sosyal likewise if pasok ka sa school or work bring a high end BMW or Benz na 2door limited lang kasi nakakaafford ng euro cars kasi nga mahal tax palang tapos ka na eh.. layo kasi ng pinanggagalingan lalo na if totoo na dun nga galing,, tsaka ang parts casa lahat unlike sa japanese marami mabibili sa labas

costly to maintain

eh pag sa japanese naman nakamark na din sa tao na masmura compare sa euro at mas marami talaga parts, easier to maintain pa. tsaka malapit lang dito factory,,

costless to maintain

tsaka my kanya kanya confort zone sila na iniimplemet


if you where to choose which of this

Audi r8, BMW Z3/Z4,Benz SLR, Lambo Gallardo or Honda s2000, toyota celica, Mitsu eclipse, Mitsu evo