Japanese vs European Car Reliability

[n2knee]

I take offense to the term "piece of ****" when applied to the car that put Ford back on the map

the Focus put Ford back on the map?? where were you in the last five years?

and that managed to re-write many of the rules of handling for front-wheel drive cars, and, by the way, is a major step up for Ford in terms of quality... I guess it's a piece of **** if all that matters is pillowy chairs and idling along at 60mph on the interstate...

i agree, the Focus is a great car, at least the Euro version and the SVT version

Of course, maybe you're comparing it to all the overweight, over-engined, gas-guzzling circa-1970's tech cars and SUVs that everyone else is driving in the US?

still stuck in the late 80's and early 90's eh? i don't know where you based your generalizations from, but you may have been watching too much Miami Vice reruns

By the way, diesel is NOT banned. It's just that emissions regulations make diesel cars a little more costly in the US. There is a bias in the US against diesel power, but diesel cars ARE sold there.

there is no market for diesel powered cars in the US/Canada since the majority of consumers are still stuck in the notion that diesel engines are noisy and more costly to maintain. car companies here will not spend a penny in r&d and marketing if they know there will be no return on their investments. that is slowly changing though. in the next few years we will be seeing more diesel powered cars in the US/Canada.

In fact, American made and marketed SUVs like the Tahoe and Explorer are even more unsafe at highway speeds than most other cars, despite the standard safety equipment.

in general trucks and SUVs (regardless of who made them) are more unsafe at higher speeds than regular passenger cars simply, because trucks and SUVs are not meant to go fast. trucks and SUVs are more prone to roll overs most especially to someone who is not skilled to drive one.

And yes, driving conditions in the US are easy compared to most other places... wider roads, better paving and surfacing, better asphalt and water-drainage properties... which also makes them very dangerous for US drivers who suddenly find themselves in wet or icy conditions and who have no idea how to adapt to such.

compared to the Philippines and most countries in Europe , but saying you can drive with your eyes blindfolded is a bit of an exaggeration :hysterical:

American driving is just so SOFT... and the cars are equally so...

bring it :wink:

[Karding]

there is no market for diesel powered cars in the US/Canada since the majority of consumers are still stuck in the notion that diesel engines are noisy and more costly to maintain. car companies here will not spend a penny in r&d and marketing if they know there will be no return on their investments. that is slowly changing though. in the next few years we will be seeing more diesel powered cars in the US/Canada.
:wink:

So, which is it? DIESEL automobiles are banned in the US or there is no market for diesel cars?

Here, our ever resourceful and credible North American tsikoteer, are the lists of Diesel automobiles CURRENTLY being sold.

click for DIESEL powered automobiles in North America

but saying you can drive with your eyes blindfolded is a bit of an exaggeration

it is not an exaggeration kapatid. it's called 'figure of speech' :cheer3:

[stradakid]

To answer the question, Japanese or European. Kung me pera ako European, kung wala Japanese. Parehong reliable mas mahal lang i maintain ang european.

[n2knee]

So, which is it? DIESEL automobiles are banned in the US or there is no market for diesel cars?

Here, our ever resourceful and credible North American tsikoteer, are the lists of Diesel automobiles CURRENTLY being sold.

click for DIESEL powered automobiles in North America

i don't think na banned ang diesel cars dito kasi mayron ngayon na diesel cars ang VW Jetta (or is it Passat?). di nga lang for sale dito sa California. and Lexus have plans of bringing their diesel engine (currently available in europe sa IS250)

it is not an exaggeration kapatid. it's called 'figure of speech' :cheer3:

parang literal kasi :lol:

[niky]

the Focus put Ford back on the map?? where were you in the last five years?

When I say "back on the map", I mean in terms of small cars. The Focus remains a perennial seller in the US, and at its introduction, was leaps and bounds ahead of Ford's previous economy car offering in the US, the Ford Escort. It remains one of the few US compacts (let's not quibble on which Ford developed it... I know its European roots) to be able to compete with the Japanese... despite the traditional US pitfalls of poor interior and build quality (which improved after a while).

Of course, I'm not ignorant of the fact that Ford is running the Mark I Focus into the ground, as Ford is wont to. Whenever they have a hit car, it seems they're happy to sit on it and milk it for all its worth, instead of updating it to keep it competitive with the Japanese, who seem to update (not just cosmetically, mechanically) every other year. Look at what they did for the Taurus, which, like the Focus, was a veritable cash cow for Ford, yet was allowed to languish undeveloped and underdeveloped until they killed it recently.

But that doesn't change the fact that the Focus made Ford compacts respectable again. Not something you could say about many of their compacts after they finally dropped the rear-wheel drive escort. And no, I'm not counting the Mazda-based 90's ones.

still stuck in the late 80's and early 90's eh? i don't know where you based your generalizations from, but you may have been watching too much Miami Vice reruns

Errh... how is Miami Vice relevant? I didn't even watch it when it was new.

Or maybe I should have said circa-80's technology... c'mon... can you honestly tell me that the Explorer that everyone and his sister drives is actually modern... Besides, I was being sarcastic for sarcasm's sake.

there is no market for diesel powered cars in the US/Canada since the majority of consumers are still stuck in the notion that diesel engines are noisy and more costly to maintain. car companies here will not spend a penny in r&d and marketing if they know there will be no return on their investments. that is slowly changing though. in the next few years we will be seeing more diesel powered cars in the US/Canada.

The point was, there are diesel cars in the US. I have a friend who owns a Jetta. There is a market, albeit a small one. The original post was in reference to the contention that diesel is banned in the US, which it is clearly not.

compared to the Philippines and most countries in Europe, but saying you can drive with your eyes blindfolded is a bit of an exaggeration

bring it :wink:

Better take the blindfold off, then. I don't see mention of one in any of my posts.

And for anyone who's driven the backroads of the Philippines, dodging stray goats, sheep, cows and the occassional flat cat, who's had to replace dozens of flat tires and who's paid for broken bushings and wheel bearings... and who gets mileage worse than US urban mileage on even the best of days in Metro Manila... and who's dodged flying buses and vans doing over 80 mph downhill through the remote mountains up north (that is, the buses and vans are doing over 80...), yes, American driving is soft.

It's been brought-en.

[n2knee]

When I say "back on the map", I mean in terms of small cars. The Focus remains a perennial seller in the US, and at its introduction, was leaps and bounds ahead of Ford's previous economy car offering in the US, the Ford Escort.

now that you are more specific, i agree.

Of course, I'm not ignorant of the fact that Ford is running the Mark I Focus into the ground, as Ford is wont to. Whenever they have a hit car, it seems they're happy to sit on it and milk it for all its worth, instead of updating it to keep it competitive with the Japanese, who seem to update (not just cosmetically, mechanically) every other year. Look at what they did for the Taurus, which, like the Focus, was a veritable cash cow for Ford, yet was allowed to languish undeveloped and underdeveloped until they killed it recently.

unfortunately that's so true about Ford, they tend to sit on their laurels instead of aggressively trying to improve their line-up, but i hope they will learn from their mistakes in the past. they are reviving their hurricane program, so i'm pretty excited to see their future offerings.

Or maybe I should have said circa-80's technology... c'mon... can you honestly tell me that the Explorer that everyone and his sister drives is actually modern...

five years ago it was (after the introduction of the 3rd gen). afterall it was the first SUV (under $45k) to offer independent rear suspension; first to offer 6-speed auto tranny; first to offer tire pressure monitoring system; granted the engine design (from their modular program) has been around for a decade, it was considered advanced compared to it's competitors.

Better take the blindfold off, then. I don't see mention of one in any of my posts.

it was a case of mistaken identity...sorry

And for anyone who's driven the backroads of the Philippines, dodging stray goats, sheep, cows and the occassional flat cat, who's had to replace dozens of flat tires and who's paid for broken bushings and wheel bearings... and who gets mileage worse than US urban mileage on even the best of days in Metro Manila... and who's dodged flying buses and vans doing over 80 mph downhill through the remote mountains up north (that is, the buses and vans are doing over 80...), yes, American driving is soft.

we don't have stray goats, sheep, cows on our highways here. we have a place for these animals and it's not on our highways. we have raccoons, but we don't dodge them. we mow them down. common sense will dictate you to just run it over instead of swerving into an oncoming lane or right next to another car causing a major accident. we don't dodge flying buses here either since we have slow lanes for them. buses are not race cars. if using better judgement is considered "soft", by all means call us "soft".

It's been brought-en.

my comment was in reference to yours about our cars here being weak/soft. what did you mean by weak/soft? if you meant underpowered, you are mistaken. if you meant underformer, you are also mistaken. tell me one car that was mass produced, no special requirements in purchasing it from the dealer lots, sub-$150k that was made in Europe and Japan that can compete with the C6-Z06 Vette stock for stock?

[niky]

my comment was in reference to yours about our cars here being weak/soft. what did you mean by weak/soft? if you meant underpowered, you are mistaken. if you meant underformer, you are also mistaken. tell me one car that was mass produced, no special requirements in purchasing it from the dealer lots, sub-$150k that was made in Europe and Japan that can compete with the C6-Z06 Vette stock for stock?

Ah, okay... now that the rest of the misunderstanding is out of the way...

What I meant is that the driving environment is relatively soft.

You can tell a lot about local conditions by the common car. US road conditions involve long, broad highways and long distance travelling. Thus, there is a premium placed on cars with good torque and long gearing, as well as a soft and cossetting suspension. Gas is relatively cheap, so engines tend to be bigger.

Japanese conditions involve well-paved but narrow and winding urban and provincial roads. Suspensions are stiff and tight (might be harsh and brittle for some), engines are smaller (for economy in urban conditions), gearing is tighter (in some cases, with second gear topping at under 50 mph, whereas most cars get over 60 mph in second gear) to maximize the power from the small plants. There may be a 180-200 km/h speedlimiter on the vehicle, to meet local regulations.

European conditions are a mix of the two. While you have long, well paved highways, which require long legs on even the most under-endowed cars, you also have small twisty roads, lots of them, which require a stiff suspension and good handling. Besides this, you have the ruts and potholes of third-world type roads in many coutnries, as well as tooth-rattling cobblestones, thus, this stiff suspension should also be supple.

*Philippine conditions are horrible, rough roads, tight, winding ones, slow traffic. We tend towards Japanese vehicles because of the size of the roads and conditions, but because of the axle-breaking conditions on some roads, as well as the possibility of floods and difficulty of maintenance in the outlying provinces, we tend to go for crude 70's style Japanese trucks. The simpler and cruder the diesel plant, the better...

Of course, that's not to say that all US, Japanese and European cars follow these rules, but in general, you can feel the conditions that they were meant for. And the stereotypes no longer apply to manufactured vehicles, as makers are increasingly looking at making them for the world market. Like you said, the Z06 is a class-beater, even by European standards, despite complaints by said Europeans about the super-Corvette's poor tractability (it's hard to read it when pushing hard, as it doesn't communicate as well as, say, a Ferrari).

Under 150k? That's too broad. And considering mass-produced is a relative term, you could include a lot of Nobles, Caterhams (they've sold a lot of them), Lotuses, etcetera etcetera that are ostensibly faster than the Z06 on a handling track, and cheaper... no special conditions to buy, either... but of course, on a fast track or a highway, they'd get blown away, and they're not as comfortable as the American super GT. But if we really want to get nitpicky, half the price of the Corvette will get you a nice GSXR that will out-accelerate anything on the planet.

Then again, while that makes the Corvette two times too expensive, it makes the European supercars look two hundred times too expensive. Everything is relative... :lol:

And take note, the differences in general driving conditions tend to be overstated by Euro-philes as meaning their cars are better. Which is bull. It just means that their cars are designed for a wider variety of road conditions than most. Which is why, since the 90's, US and Japanese automakers have been focusing on developing suspension tuning in Europe, particularly at the Nurburgring... as they've now found that if a car can drive well and fast on the Nurb, it can cope with nearly anything. The Z06 and a lot of the new Caddys have seen development time here.

[mbt]

mazdamazda,

your reasoning that japanese cars are not reliable because "all the posts in the Workshop are about jap cars" is incorrect. iilan lang ba may european cars dito?

for your personal experience of shitty quality, i will offer the service record of our cr-v which has needed nothing at all more than regular oil changes. our other cr-v is similarly reliable. our corona and accord have also been reliable, nothing unusual beyond reasonable age-related wear. hehe

[ultimate]

mazdamazda,

your reasoning that japanese cars are not reliable because "all the posts in the Workshop are about jap cars" is incorrect. iilan lang ba may european cars dito?

for your personal experience of shitty quality, i will offer the service record of our cr-v which has needed nothing at all more than regular oil changes. our other cr-v is similarly reliable. our corona and accord have also been reliable, nothing unusual beyond reasonable age-related wear. hehe

im not insulting jap cars. like i said we have quite a few in the family. some comparisons are thickness of body, some options are missing and a few models that has no safety concern to the buyer. my aunt has a crv and i drive it from time to time. no complaints but a little heavy for the engine.

[apexi_66]

mazdamazda,

your reasoning that japanese cars are not reliable because "all the posts in the Workshop are about jap cars" is incorrect. iilan lang ba may european cars dito?

for your personal experience of shitty quality, i will offer the service record of our cr-v which has needed nothing at all more than regular oil changes. our other cr-v is similarly reliable. our corona and accord have also been reliable, nothing unusual beyond reasonable age-related wear. hehe

Well, kung ganyan nga kadami siguro rides na pwedeng pagpalit-palitin, mas less ang wear and tear compare sa iisa lang ang palaging gamit na ride. Dito konti european cars kaya konti reported problems, pero sa europe marami european and japanese cars, marami din naman reported problems sa japanese cars. I think, depende sa pag gamit.

[ronald_m]

Well, kung ganyan nga kadami siguro rides na pwedeng pagpalit-palitin, mas less ang wear and tear compare sa iisa lang ang palaging gamit na ride. Dito konti european cars kaya konti reported problems, pero sa europe marami european and japanese cars, marami din naman reported problems sa japanese cars. I think, depende sa pag gamit.

Here in the US its a fact that German cars are more problematic than japanese automobile, But they still buy German cars for style,elegant,luxury.I have a friend who has a 90' honda accord with 300,000+ Miles on it(how do you convert that in KM?)still has a plenty of miles left.

[mbt]

huh? but i never said you were insulting japanese cars.

i was replying to mazdamazda.

[detta]

jap pa rin....no need to explain hehehehe

[niky]

Eh? The bulk of Expedition sales is to Suburban housewives... and the big, fast, heavy and powerful pickups are all driven by redneck Americans, like my uncle...

but then again, he just traded in his Dodge Ram for a 'safer' and 'more sensible' Viper SRT-10... so, yeah, maybe it is mostly Mexicans... :p

I do know that a lot of Expeditions end up in the hands of Pinoys, who still view them as "status" vehicles from their experiences here.

[oldblue]

I do know that a lot of Expeditions end up in the hands of Pinoys, who still view them as "status" vehicles from their experiences here.

so true.

[BlueBimmer]

at least when ur driving around in an exped here, mdyo chick magnet hehe

[beerygud]

In my opinion European.

[niky]

Lots of nice points, but insulting Ford hurts my feelings. ...the current Lancer and Sentra are even more deserving of the PoS tag than the current Focus... actually, the Cavalier and Neon are both MOST deserving of that tag...

But then again, Americans don't get the new Focus, pity.

We've owned a bunch of Fords and Mazdas... and even the ones which are PoS's are loveable... peace anyway... I'm resigned to the fact. :D

[ian_rex]

para sa akin, depends. pero bias ako sa mga japanese brands. kasi affordable and value for money, most european marques kasi medyo me kamahalan.

[pitbullz]

early MB's and BMW's are pretty reliable...ang tagal masira. ewan ko lang now