2013 Kia Sorento vs Montero non/Vgt a/t

**dj ian** · August 31st, 2013 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by erick_214

It's not a Reguis, it's the usual flat nosed Hi-ace that has a 1KZ-TE engine. Yung Regius ata eh 2.5L lang yun at hindi 1KZ-TE makina nun eh...

Nakakahiya kang montero ka! Tinakbuhan ka ng surplus!hahahaha

**Dark Lord** · August 31st, 2013 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by arsen

Below list is a comparison of nozzle hole diameters and number of holes.
Isuzu 3.0L 4JJ1-TC
holes = 6 x 0.140mm total area of holes 0.09236mm2
Toyota 2.5L 2KD
holes = 6 x 0.145mm total area of holes 0.09908mm2
Toyota 3.0L 1KD
holes = 8 x 0.130mm total area of holes 0.10619mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L R-line
holes = 8 x 0.135mm total area of holes 0.11451mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L CRDI (prior to R-line)
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Mitsubishi 2.5L 4D56-DiD
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Navara 2.5L YD25
holes = 8 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.16085mm2

sir, medyo stupid question lang, kung mas malaki ang nozzle diameter, mas prone sa pagiging mausok? pero ang mauusok po na napapansin ko eh isuzu at montero. yung strada at navarra parang hindi ko pansin nagbubuga ng usok. yung navarra pa nga eh mas malaki pa ata nozzle sa montero.

**victorevolution** · August 31st, 2013 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by arsen

Siguro kasi dahil bagong modelo, masarap pa patakbuhin kaya nauunahan ang mga luma. Yung mga luma naman since nasa hulihan, nakaw pansin sa kanila yun usok galing sa tambutso. hehehe

Hindi pa rin kasi nagbago ang reason kung bakit meron black smoke: Ever since pa its because of over fueling and/or less oxygen.

Saka kahit bagong modelo na yan, hindi naman nakikisabay o naging mahigpit ang government agency natin sa quality ng diesel fuel sa atin. Naging worst pa nga siguro dahil marami pumapasok na imported processed fuel. Kahit sabihin EURO-EURO pa yan, malay ba natin kung kelan pa yan na processed ng refinery na pinagkuhan. Or at worst baka mga bagsak yan sa quality ng mga mauunlad na bansa/pihikan na customer.

Yung diesel ay nag aabsorb ng moisture, napapanis at inaamag. Kaya ganun ka importante na sariwa at kakarefine lang. Ganun ka importante rin na malinis at sealed ang transport means. Yung pipelines sa atin nagkaka leakage na. yung mga barges at tank lorries kakarag karag so what would you expect?

In terms of engine design (parts selection), meron final metering device na kung tawagin ay injector nozzle na nagbibigay ng unique characteristics sa bawat engine. Konti lang ang fuel system manufacturer (Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Continental and Stanadyne) at cross licensed pa mga yan sa isa't isa.

Yung mga pumps and common rail system up to sa injector module ay generic. Ang engine manufacturer ang my final choice sa nozzle according sa intended use ng engine.

Nozzle with relatively smaller hole diameter, atomized the fuel better kaya maganda ang low end torque ng engine and less tendency to smoke. But since relatively smaller, less fuel is allowed to pass so not much power.

Nozzle with relatively bigger holes, allows more fuel to pass so more power can be produced. But prone to over fueling at the initial burst. Especially if the accelerator pedal is released suddenly (creating an instantaneous pressure surge inside the commonrail) then pressed hard immediately.

Below list is a comparison of nozzle hole diameters and number of holes.
Isuzu 3.0L 4JJ1-TC
holes = 6 x 0.140mm total area of holes 0.09236mm2
Toyota 2.5L 2KD
holes = 6 x 0.145mm total area of holes 0.09908mm2
Toyota 3.0L 1KD
holes = 8 x 0.130mm total area of holes 0.10619mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L R-line
holes = 8 x 0.135mm total area of holes 0.11451mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L CRDI (prior to R-line)
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Mitsubishi 2.5L 4D56-DiD
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Navara 2.5L YD25
holes = 8 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.16085mm2

extremely good explanation this also explain why old jeepneys tend to smoke a lot- busted nozzle tips

as for montero- yeah it might be one of the problem(fuel)

with regard to crosswind(worst of em all)- it's not because of the engine design, this is because this is an old school truck with less computer calculation on fuel mixture

**yebo** · August 31st, 2013 11:10 AM

There are other factors, like cylinder head and piston design, time and duration of injection, size of fuel droplets (the smaller the better since there is better mixing with air). For old engines leaking fuel injectors and worn injector nozzles are the number 1 culprit for smokey engines.

**reactor** · August 31st, 2013 11:22 AM

re fuel it seems kasundo ng monty namin ang ang unioil maganda na ang FC so far white smoke lang napapansin ko upon start up unlike sa iba fuel brand noticeable ang black smoke.

**arsen** · September 1st, 2013 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by arsen

Below list is a comparison of nozzle hole diameters and number of holes.
Isuzu 3.0L 4JJ1-TC
holes = 6 x 0.140mm total area of holes 0.09236mm2
Toyota 2.5L 2KD
holes = 6 x 0.145mm total area of holes 0.09908mm2
Toyota 3.0L 1KD
holes = 8 x 0.130mm total area of holes 0.10619mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L R-line
holes = 8 x 0.135mm total area of holes 0.11451mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L CRDI (prior to R-line)
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Mitsubishi 2.5L 4D56-DiD
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Navara 2.5L YD25
holes = 8 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.16085mm2

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

sir, medyo stupid question lang, kung mas malaki ang nozzle diameter, mas prone sa pagiging mausok? pero ang mauusok po na napapansin ko eh isuzu at montero. yung strada at navarra parang hindi ko pansin nagbubuga ng usok. yung navarra pa nga eh mas malaki pa ata nozzle sa montero.

Basically Yes.
Consider those nozzle sizes as alloted budget of a project. Then the way a driver presses the accelerator pedal as the manner of spending/project execution.
Kung nagmamadali/padalos dalos ka at malaki ang budget mo. Malaki ang potential losses or scandal kagaya na lang ng PDAF...

.

Mas malaki talaga ang potential na maging mausok ang montero vs strada. Kahit pa the same ang drivetrain ng mga yan. Its because of the about 200kgs weight difference between the two. Let me play with some numbers to roughly explain why.

Let say:
Strada 1700 + 100kgs (driver, fuel) = 1800kgs
Montero 1900 + 100kgs (driver, fuel) = 2000kgs

Now let say both trailing with each other and Strada sprint from 60 kph to 100kph in 5 secs
Input the values here and click calculate: Car Acceleration

Strada just did 444 kJ of work

If Montero wants to match Strada's 60 kph to 100kph in 5 secs, change the mass to 2000kgs

Montero has to do 494 kJ of work to match with Strada

To change those kJ to volume of fuel, these are the additional info and numbers

To do work, food calories is needed.
Engine food is diesel fuel with a calorific (heat) value of 12,800 kcal/kg
kcal multiplied by 4.18 = kJ
Density of petroleum diesel is about 0.832 kg/l
Thus, diesel calorific/heat value (12,800 kcal/kg x 4.18kJ/kcal) / 0.832 = 64300kJ/liter

Diesel engine efficiency is about 35-40%, conservatice value is 35% therefore
For strada to produce 444kJ of work, (444/0.35) = roughly 1270kJ of energy is consumed
For montero that has to do 494kJ of work para makadikit kay strada, (494/0.35) = roughly 1411kJ of energy is consumed

To know the rough estimate of fuel:
Strada will consume roughly 1270kJ/64300kJ/liter = 0.01975 liters or 19.75ml to do 60 to 100kph sprint in 5 secs
Montero has to consume roughly 1411kJ/64300kJ/liter = 0.02194 liters or 21.94ml to do 60 to 100kph sprint in 5 secs

In the above comparison, 2000kgs Montero needs 11% more fuel to match the sprint of 1800kgs Strada.

Same engine, same volumetric efficiency of air/oxygen flow but the other has to use more fuel.

So I think the one using more fuel has more chances of emitting black smoke if subjected to a lead footed driver na mahilig mag WOT release then WOT.

**Dark Lord** · September 1st, 2013 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by arsen

Basically Yes.
Consider those nozzle sizes as alloted budget of a project. Then the way a driver presses the accelerator pedal as the manner of spending/project execution.
Kung nagmamadali/padalos dalos ka at malaki ang budget mo. Malaki ang potential losses or scandal kagaya na lang ng PDAF...

.

Mas malaki talaga ang potential na maging mausok ang montero vs strada. Kahit pa the same ang drivetrain ng mga yan. Its because of the about 200kgs weight difference between the two. Let me play with some numbers to roughly explain why.

Let say:
Strada 1700 + 100kgs (driver, fuel) = 1800kgs
Montero 1900 + 100kgs (driver, fuel) = 2000kgs

Now let say both trailing with each other and Strada sprint from 60 kph to 100kph in 5 secs
Input the values here and click calculate: Car Acceleration

Strada just did 444 kJ of work

If Montero wants to match Strada's 60 kph to 100kph in 5 secs, change the mass to 2000kgs

Montero has to do 494 kJ of work to match with Strada

To change those kJ to volume of fuel, these are the additional info and numbers

To do work, food calories is needed.
Engine food is diesel fuel with a calorific (heat) value of 12,800 kcal/kg
kcal multiplied by 4.18 = kJ
Density of petroleum diesel is about 0.832 kg/l
Thus, diesel calorific/heat value (12,800 kcal/kg x 4.18kJ/kcal) / 0.832 = 64300kJ/liter

Diesel engine efficiency is about 35-40%, conservatice value is 35% therefore
For strada to produce 444kJ of work, (444/0.35) = roughly 1270kJ of energy is consumed
For montero that has to do 494kJ of work para makadikit kay strada, (494/0.35) = roughly 1411kJ of energy is consumed

To know the rough estimate of fuel:
Strada will consume roughly 1270kJ/64300kJ/liter = 0.01975 liters or 19.75ml to do 60 to 100kph sprint in 5 secs
Montero has to consume roughly 1411kJ/64300kJ/liter = 0.02194 liters or 21.94ml to do 60 to 100kph sprint in 5 secs

In the above comparison, 2000kgs Montero needs 11% more fuel to match the sprint of 1800kgs Strada.

Same engine, same volumetric efficiency of air/oxygen flow but the other has to use more fuel.

So I think the one using more fuel has more chances of emitting black smoke if subjected to a lead footed driver na mahilig mag WOT release then WOT.

Nosebleed sir. Pero well explained. Salamat ng marami!

**Syuryuken** · September 1st, 2013 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by arsen

Siguro kasi dahil bagong modelo, masarap pa patakbuhin kaya nauunahan ang mga luma. Yung mga luma naman since nasa hulihan, nakaw pansin sa kanila yun usok galing sa tambutso. hehehe

Hindi pa rin kasi nagbago ang reason kung bakit meron black smoke: Ever since pa its because of over fueling and/or less oxygen.

Saka kahit bagong modelo na yan, hindi naman nakikisabay o naging mahigpit ang government agency natin sa quality ng diesel fuel sa atin. Naging worst pa nga siguro dahil marami pumapasok na imported processed fuel. Kahit sabihin EURO-EURO pa yan, malay ba natin kung kelan pa yan na processed ng refinery na pinagkuhan. Or at worst baka mga bagsak yan sa quality ng mga mauunlad na bansa/pihikan na customer.

Yung diesel ay nag aabsorb ng moisture, napapanis at inaamag. Kaya ganun ka importante na sariwa at kakarefine lang. Ganun ka importante rin na malinis at sealed ang transport means. Yung pipelines sa atin nagkaka leakage na. yung mga barges at tank lorries kakarag karag so what would you expect?

In terms of engine design (parts selection), meron final metering device na kung tawagin ay injector nozzle na nagbibigay ng unique characteristics sa bawat engine. Konti lang ang fuel system manufacturer (Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Continental and Stanadyne) at cross licensed pa mga yan sa isa't isa.

Yung mga pumps and common rail system up to sa injector module ay generic. Ang engine manufacturer ang my final choice sa nozzle according sa intended use ng engine.

Nozzle with relatively smaller hole diameter, atomized the fuel better kaya maganda ang low end torque ng engine and less tendency to smoke. But since relatively smaller, less fuel is allowed to pass so not much power.

Nozzle with relatively bigger holes, allows more fuel to pass so more power can be produced. But prone to over fueling at the initial burst. Especially if the accelerator pedal is released suddenly (creating an instantaneous pressure surge inside the commonrail) then pressed hard immediately.

Below list is a comparison of nozzle hole diameters and number of holes.
Isuzu 3.0L 4JJ1-TC
holes = 6 x 0.140mm total area of holes 0.09236mm2
Toyota 2.5L 2KD
holes = 6 x 0.145mm total area of holes 0.09908mm2
Toyota 3.0L 1KD
holes = 8 x 0.130mm total area of holes 0.10619mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L R-line
holes = 8 x 0.135mm total area of holes 0.11451mm2
Hyundai/kia 2.2L CRDI (prior to R-line)
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Mitsubishi 2.5L 4D56-DiD
holes = 6 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.12064mm2
Navara 2.5L YD25
holes = 8 x 0.160mm total area of holes 0.16085mm2

palagay ko lalabas yung bespren mo

**erick_214** · September 2nd, 2013 04:24 AM

Pambihira! Nahilo ako dyan huh...

Pero tanong ko na rin, di ba dapat sa 3/4 to WOT e dapat sumisipa na yug turbo nyan at dapat maganda na yung AF ratio? Dapat nyan hindi pa rin gaano mausok? Paano nagagawa ng ibang manufacturer na hindi gaano mausok yung sasakyan nila? Design flaw ba yan ng Mitsubishi?

**arsen** · September 2nd, 2013 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by erick_214

Pambihira! Nahilo ako dyan huh...

Pero tanong ko na rin, di ba dapat sa 3/4 to WOT e dapat sumisipa na yug turbo nyan at dapat maganda na yung AF ratio? Dapat nyan hindi pa rin gaano mausok? Paano nagagawa ng ibang manufacturer na hindi gaano mausok yung sasakyan nila? Design flaw ba yan ng Mitsubishi?

Sa diesel engine, its the injected fuel that brings the engine to speed.
Inject a certain volume of fuel (by pressing the pedal), hold it still (steady lang wag magalaw ang paa) and the engine will gradually bring itself to a corresponding speed. There is no standard AF ratio requirement. It depends on the time delay the engine is brought to a corresponding speed. Kaya kung much heavy ang load, the longer it takes to rev, the more din ang possibility of black smoke. Better to change to a next lower gear than to just carry on by pressing hard on the pedal.

Diesel engine rotating parts is also bigger and heavier than gasoline engine so there is a lot of rotational resistance to start with. Those heavy rotating parts is also part of the system that rotates the fuel pump. So kahit release na ang pedal, pumping fully pa rin si fuel pump dahil sa momentum so the common rail could be over-pressurized.

Now imagine na lang what would happen if the accelerator is 1.Pressed hard 2.Released completely 3.Pressed hard again. 123 cycles within a very short intervals. During such 123 wasteful action comes the advantage to having smaller hole nozzle.

Your question is.... Paano nagagawa ng ibang manufacturer na hindi gaano mausok yung sasakyan nila?

Option-1. By using smaller size injector nozzle like the one fitted to Isuzu 4JJ1-TC ... but don't expect plenty of power.

Option-2. By using electronic controlled pressure limiter valve (capable of releasing excessive/transient pressure spikes in the common rail) like the one fitted to Toyota 1KD and 2KD around 2009.... but don't expect a similar lifetime-maintenance-free of a spring/purely mechanical pressure limiter valve.

Option-3. Use diesel particulate filter exhaust after treatment. But that will be additional cost for the buyer.

Option-4. Use smaller size hole injector nozzle and 5 times injection like those of Hyundai R-line engines. It gives more power and less smoke than the 3 times injection of LCVs. Just be quite lang na may taning na pala ang life ng mga injectors to the tune of 1,000,000,000 times

If 3 time injection LCVs can go 300,000km
It is still yet to find out if 5 times injection can pass a terminal life of 120,000kms. Anyway, to be prepared, just put a peso in a piggy bank for every 1km mileage. Pwede na cguro pambili ng bagong injector when the time comes.

That's for know. I can expound the magic numbers na 300,000km vs 120,000kms. pero baka mahilo ka ulet bossing...heheh

...