R & D (Research and Duplicate) - Why don't we do it?

[uls]

nobody's investing in Philippine-original motor vehicle mass production coz there's no money to be made

that's the bottom line

people can sit around and discuss this stuff for another 10 yrs and it will be all just talk

[Helios]

agree on all counts except the 'toy' part.
of course it has to exceed beyond the targeted customers' (perceived) expectations if we are to market it as a serious product (want vs need). i see that the auto industry picks up the need of the customers comparatively well, except that some still fail the execution part of the process. the pursuit of balancing form and the functional attributes is never-ending so not everyone is there, yet. the market is still wide open for small and independent coachbuilders. being relatively small and independent allows for some flexibility in the design and building process without restrictions and conditioning of those limited to to work on the same theme for the same market segment. the same tools can be utilised to build related products like helmets, scooters etc. the initial strategy is to build a platform for communication between the manufacturer, the prospective sponsor, and the target buyer. it is critical that the concept vehicle should be able to translate the fascination into a fast purchase, a bystander into a buyer before an actual production initiates. fail this- forget it.

just to be practical, don't stick that philippine brand anywhere near the concept. just 'uv', and scrap the 'ph'. the concept vehicle has to generate a strong international interest to attract the local market.

how many buyers you ask> tap into the bir's unlisted millionaires of the phils, i hear you've got plenty hiding in cafes

[EVO-V]

For coach builders to be successful we need to establish a skills trade. From apprentices to craftsmen. And we need a market that supports that trade and culture.

[uls]

what we have here in the Phils. are truck body fabricators. they make bodies for imported trucks

Centro, Almazora

yan lang kaya ng Pinas --- gumawa ng katawan ng truck

[Ry_Tower]

what we have here in the Phils. are truck body fabricators. they make bodies for imported trucks

Centro, Almazora

yan lang kaya ng Pinas --- gumawa ng katawan ng truck

At mag-recon ng imported outdated trucks.

[niky]

Want a plan that might work?

First, build a motorcycle brand. Capture a big part of the market. That's possible because motorcycle buyers are cheap and more likely to buy crappy things that will break.

The trick is to over-engineer your bike so it won't.

After a few years, you've built a reputation for building cheap stuff that doesn't break. Go upmarket. Do big displacement bikes. Go laterally from there. Trucklets, mini-cars. Build a multi-market customer base. Build working capital. Hell... You aren't getting investors for a car start-up unless:

1. It's a sure thing... Which means you have to have proof of concept and expertise beforehand... Thus you should already be a manufacturer.

Or

2. It's an exciting toy that your jnvestors would buy themselves. Would the Rally Fighter have been as successful if it were a commuter car like the Spark? No. Look at all the start-ups with great concepts that have failed for lack of investor interest. The Aptera was the saddest one.

That's the long and short of it. To make a successful local car industry, you have to start from the bottom then work your way up. The PHUV was aiming straight for the middle... The most competitive and entrenched market segment. To try and build a consumer car also aims for the middle... For a class where customers are spoiled for choice and manufacturers sell at low margins to capture market share.

To understand what works, you should also understand what doesn't. The history of automobiles is littered with the corpses of hundreds of car-making concerns that simply failed. At the end of this decade, we will have dozens more. If you're planning to challenge the big boys, you'd better hope, like Iso, that you have a clever design (the Isetta) that others would like to license from you, or, like Alec Issigonis, you have a design that revolutionizes the industry to the extnet that your car is built straight on for forty years.

[EVO-V]

That could actually work with motorbikes. The industry is pretty capable of supplying just about all the parts.

Now the pickle there is name a business that will have the resources and not just the will to carry out a 25 year plan for manufacturing here.

The PHUV was engineered mediocrity from the start. :D

There is nothing wrong with excelling in building certain components or occupying certain niches. But balance it with the availability of both human and financial capital as these dictate your frontiers.

[EVO-V]

what we have here in the Phils. are truck body fabricators. they make bodies for imported trucks

Centro, Almazora

yan lang kaya ng Pinas --- gumawa ng katawan ng truck

Actually you're right to a point and infinitely wrong on another.

Almazora actually assembles trucks and buses. A good number of manufacturers make parts for anything as simple as cables to pistons to transmission components.

We have to understand that we can't be too emotional about NOT having a Filipino made car. There are a lot of countries who couldn't give a collective regret of not having an automotive industry.

It is economical to build buses here because they aren't as mechanically complex as cars, and that they cost a lot to ship as CBU's.

Vallacar Transit, for those of you in the Visayas and Mindanao region, rebuilds their own buses. The teardown is complete from body, to engine rebuilds, to casting and machining the brake drums. The quality is nothing short of exceptional.

A good example of "if there is an economic rationale mixed with political will and vision -there is a way to do it".

[uls]

Almazora actually assembles trucks and buses. A good number of manufacturers make parts for anything as simple as cables to pistons to transmission components.

Almazora and Centro can build metal boxes and put windows on them. where am i infinitely wrong? you must be the INFINITELY RIGHT AUTO INDUSTRY EXPERT

We have to understand that we can't be too emotional about NOT having a Filipino made car. There are a lot of countries who couldn't give a collective regret of not having an automotive industry.

who's the one emotional about filipino-made car? i've been on the other side of filipino-made car advocates since the beginning. read those threads started by jpdm years ago. i've been telling them for years it's not gonna happen

It is economical to build buses here because they aren't as mechanically complex as cars, and that they cost a lot to ship as CBU's.

Pinoys can build metal boxes and put windows on them

and pinoys can rebuild engines manufactured by someone else

Vallacar Transit, for those of you in the Visayas and Mindanao region, rebuilds their own buses. The teardown is complete from body, to engine rebuilds, to casting and machining the brake drums. The quality is nothing short of exceptional.

pinoys can rebuild. that's all

[uls]

new buses are being imported whole

aside from brand new China buses, there are also imported CBU Korean buses

hyundai quezon avenue (across Maxima Komatsu) has brand new CBU buses on display

[EVO-V]

new buses are being imported whole

aside from brand new China buses, there are also imported CBU Korean buses

hyundai quezon avenue (across Maxima Komatsu) has brand new CBU buses on display

Like I said, we can't be too emotional about NOT having a FILIPINO-made car. If you're willing to overlook the fact that we do build rather complex parts for a lot of automotive manufacturers you wouldn't be so hurried in dismissing the capabilities of the auto parts industry in providing world-class high quality components.

The process of the teardown and rebuild aren't necessarily more complicated than mass production. Meaning given the parts, one can build a bus from scratch. Vallacar for instance can churn out 45 practically new buses every month. This currently serves their requirements as it does their bottom line.

The choice of vendors for parts largely lie in the advantages (not necessarily price) they can avail of. The fact that they've vertically integrated a good part of their operations for their consumables grants them huge economic efficiencies.

Understandably fleet economics is different from consumer level vehicles. But it is something that is happening and no matter how hard people can put the industry down, it is something one can't practically dismiss unless he's uninformed.

Moreover, there are local industries that can provide better quality high precision machined parts competitively. Precision well enough that an aerospace parts industry here is taking off, pun unintended.

Almazora and Centro are both second generation businesses and if you'd look at the marked improvements in their products, you'd see why there is good reason why automotive manufacturers and consumers prefer them to be made here.

Let's not discount achievement and possibilities.

Lastly, I don't have to be infinitely right, I just have to be objective.

[uls]

again, who's emotional about not having a filipino-made car?

i'm not the one who's advocating the filipino-made car

i'm not the one who's so passionate about it

and i'm not the one who's so passionate about what pinoys can build or rebuild. you are. talk about being emotional

again, i've been telling filipino-made car advocates for years it's not gonna happen

you sound like jpdm

[dfopiso]

OT: ano ang naging recipe for success ng Tata? pwede bang i-R & duplicate yung business model nila?

[EVO-V]

again, who's emotional about not having a filipino-made car?

i'm not the one who's advocating the filipino-made car

again, i've been telling filipino-made car advocates for years it's not gonna happen

you sound like jpdm

You seem to be too hurried in dismissing local capabilities. Understandably because you clearly do not have the information on hand.

There are niches and specific industries where the economics make perfect sense to build them here, and calling it "fabricating metal boxes with windows" is an unfair oversimplification of the state of the industry.

Who's jpdm?

[dfopiso]

OT: btw, mukhang hindi manufacturing ang DNA ng mga Pilipino; agri/aqua culture yata

problema, kahit nasa atin na IRRI, rice importer pa rin tayo. bakit nagkaganon? diba estudyante lang natin mga Thais, Viets atpb?

bakit hanggang ngayon wala yatang malaking Pilipino company sa agri/acqu business? atin ba ang San Miguel, Del Monte, etc?

yung napanood ko sa NatGeo at History Channel, ang bilis mag harvest sa US

sabi sa Global 3000, food prices has doubled! hindi ba business opportunity yun?

ang Brazil hindi naman yata arable land pero agriculture superpower sila?

[uls]

OT: ano ang naging recipe for success ng Tata? pwede bang i-R & duplicate yung business model nila?

puhunan

__________________________

[EVO-V]

OT: btw, mukhang hindi manufacturing ang DNA ng mga Pilipino; agri/aqua culture yata

problema, kahit nasa atin na IRRI, rice importer pa rin tayo. bakit nagkaganon? diba estudyante lang natin mga Thais, Viets atpb?

bakit hanggang ngayon wala yatang malaking Pilipino company sa agri/acqu business? atin ba ang San Miguel, Del Monte, etc?

yung napanood ko sa NatGeo at History Channel, ang bilis mag harvest sa US

sabi sa Global 3000, food prices has doubled! hindi ba business opportunity yun?

ang Brazil hindi naman yata arable land pero agriculture superpower sila?

Ahh ok here are a few things to this. First, manufacturing is an activity any industrializing country should have. No ifs or buts about it.

As far as rice self-sufficiency, we are on target to be so by 2016 give or take a few typhoons. Don't feel so bad about IRRI alumni getting ahead of us, we did have a generation of opportunities lost to martial law and mismanagement after that. Its really just the reality.

Scales of economies in agriculture are achieved by agro-industrial integration. This, however, will not happen quite yet given the abundance of agricultural labor. In most countries where you have this being implemented, there is a growing scarcity and cost of farm labor.

Brazil took decades to get to where it is right now agriculturally. Somehow they were blessed with historical opportunities that were exploited. The investments from terra-forming unusable land to linking these via rail wasn't achieved overnight in tandem with scientific support.

Tata is to India as to what Hyundai/Kia/Samsung is to Korea. It is an industrial conglomerate that benefits from policies of protection. The Indian economy is fairly closed to foreign investments. They can afford to do so given the size of their market.

[uls]

isuzu i-van

metal box with windows

[EVO-V]

isuzu i-van

metal box with windows

A far cry from the Willy's jeep replicas they use to make. Your point being?

[dfopiso]

puhunan

__________________________

naku mahirap i-duplicate pala Tata dito, based sa discussion so far