Why Water Quality Matters

[EVO-V]

These came in for failure analysis:

01. Shows severe calcification and build up due to application of ground water obtained from a pump. (Later revealed to be water sourced from a puddle).


02. No coolant use evident. Metallic particle residue likely from cylinder lining cavitation present. Operator claims that they do not use coolant because they were informed that it corrodes the lining.


Pictures speak a thousand words.

Use clean water and the correct coolant at all times. There is no excuse for being this ill-informed.

[niky]

Unfortunately, there are still stubborn old goats out there who proclaim to the high heavens that coolant is worse than water simply because water has a higher heat capacity, and that water is the only coolant you will need... ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary.

[EVO-V]

Unfortunately, there are still stubborn old goats out there who proclaim to the high heavens that coolant is worse than water simply because water has a higher heat capacity, and that water is the only coolant you will need... ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary.

Thought I'd share the hard evidence. Though this perpetuation of ignorance gives the usual "covertion" and "overhole" people more business.

[kompressor]

Unfortunately, there are still stubborn old goats out there who proclaim to the high heavens that coolant is worse than water simply because water has a higher heat capacity, and that water is the only coolant you will need... ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary.

"stubborn old goats". Nailed right at the head.


Although, some "enterprising" shops actually recommend it to give them more return customers and proclaim that their radiator overhaul intervals are the normal ones and even outright lie about coolants, scaring customers that their overhaul intervals will actually shorten/be more frequent when they use coolants.

[Retz]

don't use water alone. use prestone coolant (pre-mix).

[Type 100]

These came in for failure analysis:

Thanks for the photos. I'm assuming this is your day job?

[EVO-V]

Thanks for the photos. I'm assuming this is your day job?

Among other things related to thermal management.

Prestone and similar coolants aren't particularly as good as you want them to be. But they are better than nothing in most cases.

However, note the very presence of water even when in a coolant solution, coming into contact with metals such as steel and aluminum is going to cause problems by its nature.

[EVO-V]

"stubborn old goats". Nailed right at the head.


Although, some "enterprising" shops actually recommend it to give them more return customers and proclaim that their radiator overhaul intervals are the normal ones and even outright lie about coolants, scaring customers that their overhaul intervals will actually shorten/be more frequent when they use coolants.

A few pointers peeps.

1) A properly maintained cooling system shouldn't need overhauling. There is NO SUCH THING as a regular radiator overhaul.

2) Not all radiators are created equal. There are those made to be disposable. A good radiator saves you the expense and inconvenience of having to replace it prematurely.

3) Proper installation is important. A moron of a mechanic can screw up even something as basic as a radiator installation.

4) A radiator swap is always cheaper than an engine rebuild.

[kompressor]

A few pointers peeps.

1) A properly maintained cooling system shouldn't need overhauling. There is NO SUCH THING as a regular radiator overhaul.

2) Not all radiators are created equal. There are those made to be disposable. A good radiator saves you the expense and inconvenience of having to replace it prematurely.

3) Proper installation is important. A moron of a mechanic can screw up even something as basic as a radiator installation.

4) A radiator swap is always cheaper than an engine rebuild.

My point exactly. The "enterprising" shops create all those kinds of BS (overhaul intervals).

My only experiences with radiator swaps/overhauls are with second hand cars as how they were previously maintained were beyond my control. But I cared for a brand new bought auv and I never had to drain it's coolant during its 13 years of service to us. The coolant it had in it was still the OEM one from the factory and as of writing, can sit on idle with the a/c on during very hot days and the temp needle never crosses the operating temp (near the middle) mark.

[K.I.L.L.]

What coolant would you recommend that is available in Manila?

[kinyo]

i'll bet the stubborn ones didn't pass their chemistry subject (assuming they got that far in school)

[OTEP]

What coolant would you recommend that is available in Manila?

Im no chemist but we use Zic Super A pre mixed ethelyne glycol based coolants on most vehicles. The Toyotas require the red long life variety so we use oem.

We also have a radiator guy on call and the services aren't terribly expensive to a point the company can even get radiator cores rodded (overhauled) just for the fun of it. And though the rad guy isnt fond of coolant, we as the client get to determine what goes into the system.

[EVO-V]

Im no chemist but we use Zic Super A pre mixed ethelyne glycol based coolants on most vehicles. The Toyotas require the red long life variety so we use oem.

We also have a radiator guy on call and the services aren't terribly expensive to a point the company can even get radiator cores rodded (overhauled) just for the fun of it. And though the rad guy isnt fond of coolant, we as the client get to determine what goes into the system.

Slap some sense into that radiator guy of yours just for thinking that way.

Don't tolerate "rodding" it damages tubes and you really don't want that to hit you when it matters most.

[jaypee10]

pansin ko lang sa akin..every 8months nag papa overhaul ako ng radiator...
kahit hindi tumataas ung temp ko...

pag bukas nila ng bradiator,,may mga ilang butas ng barado...

hindi po ako nag lalagay ng coolant...
observe ko lang din kasi..pag may coolant..ang lakas kumain ng head gasket..
sabi ng mekaniko..matapang daw talaga ang coolant..at subukan ko naman daw ung walang coolant..

at ok naman ung vti ko pag walang coolant...

[oj88]

pansin ko lang sa akin..every 8months nag papa overhaul ako ng radiator...
kahit hindi tumataas ung temp ko...

pag bukas nila ng bradiator,,may mga ilang butas ng barado...

hindi po ako nag lalagay ng coolant...
observe ko lang din kasi..pag may coolant..ang lakas kumain ng head gasket..
sabi ng mekaniko..matapang daw talaga ang coolant..at subukan ko naman daw ung walang coolant..

at ok naman ung vti ko pag walang coolant...

How could you say that everything's fine when you have to overhaul the radiator every 8 months?

[EVO-V]

pansin ko lang sa akin..every 8months nag papa overhaul ako ng radiator...
kahit hindi tumataas ung temp ko...

pag bukas nila ng bradiator,,may mga ilang butas ng barado...

hindi po ako nag lalagay ng coolant...
observe ko lang din kasi..pag may coolant..ang lakas kumain ng head gasket..
sabi ng mekaniko..matapang daw talaga ang coolant..at subukan ko naman daw ung walang coolant..

at ok naman ung vti ko pag walang coolant...

Sorry dude, but that guy just wants you to keep coming back.

Those things that clog the tubes are actually particles corroded from your gaskets/engine/liners etc. by the water. Water = universal solvent. We can go deeper into the chemical processes if you want but the bottom line is that water will try to dissolve anything and the oxygen in H2O is more than willing to react in an electrochemical soup such as your cooling loop.

If you think its expensive to hire a professional, wait until you engage an amateur.

[EVO-V]

How could you say that everything's fine when you have to overhaul the radiator every 8 months?

+10

Let's try looking at things this way.

If you have to go to a shop to overhaul your radiator every 8 months, let's do the math.

Your free time = Your monthly wage/30. Assuming it takes you 1 day to get all that done including your time going to the shop.

Supposing you have a car, which means you must at least be earning something in the range of 25,000 to 35,000 net to afford to operate it. Which means that free day is roughly 850 to 1150 pesos to you.

Add the cost of the service which is 1500 to 2500. And you would have spent P 3650 every 8 months for that "overhaul". Say in the time you've spent owning that vehicle and you at least go through 4 of those "routine overholes", you would have spent P14,600.00.

New radiator for your ride = P4500-P8500

Now depending on your driving habits and environment, the cost of not using a proper coolant erodes your engine lining and causes a breakdown, the towing alone is at least P 4500 overhauling and subsequent repair is say P15,000 to be generously conservative.

Coolant cost for a car = >P500 to P1000 (depending on brand and quality).

So a quick summary:

Overholing vs Replacement is anything from P6100 to P10,100 more expensive.

Coolant vs Towing+Overhauling = P 18500 cheaper to use coolant.

These are very rough calculations.

Rule of thumb in fleet maintenance is, if something costs you more to maintain than to replace -you replace it. No reason I can see why people can't benefit from this nugget of knowledge too. This is a simplification of course. We can go deeper into maintenance cycles but it will bore the bejeebus out of most of us, including me.

So generally if preventive replacement costs 50% of your ongoing maintenance for the same period but extends your operating cycle by 2 then you perform a preventive replacement. So in the simple example above, if your radiator is obviously being overholed for whatever reason, the risk of failure is not only imminent but the cost of maintaining it justifies the sensible act of simply replacing it.

Thing is, if anyone's experienced a breakdown not necessarily because you opted for a cheaper solution (nothing wrong with that), but because they opted for the wrong one, based on poorly articulated assumptions, then that outing/date/appointment/impression/***y time that you were going for that just got bummed, is really no more a product of faulty thinking at a time of knowing.

[dr. d]

a little clarification, please.
while water is frequently described as the universal solvent, most metals will not appreciably dissolve in water. however, many metals will react with water under certain conditions. there is a difference between dissolve and react, even as the morphological result may be similar.

[OTEP]

Now I know why I'm no chemist. Now why the company got me to look after the fleet? I don't know also. So far no breakdown or downtime has occured en route or with patients/human organs on board. Whew.

[EVO-V]

a little clarification, please.
while water is frequently described as the universal solvent, most metals will not appreciably dissolve in water. however, many metals will react with water under certain conditions. there is a difference between dissolve and react, even as the morphological result may be similar.

Which means exactly that. Iron and Aluminum are not soluble in water.

The residue, however, that normally coats surfaces in the cooling system will dissolve or ionize water contaminating it. Supposing we're even hoping that its distilled or de-ionized makes it less hopeful that it will not cause further corrosion in aluminum or rust for iron.

The presence of ions and free oxygen molecules will be present in your water solution makes all that a certainty.

A proper concentration of coolant/water minimizes the ability of water to dissolve any more of these residues. Some coolants even leave a layer/barrier between the coolant flow and the metal surfaces as protection from further corrosion and even cavitation.

Now add a stray current and its disco inferno right in there on an anodic level.