Lumalaki ang hypocrisy?

[ringostarr]

I was doing a little research about the Philippine banks, when I came across a fact, and I searched for more details about it. Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia.org entry:

"The archdiocese is considered to be one of the richest archdioceses in the world, and the richest in the Philippines. It has a considerable number of real estate holdings located in Metro Manila and financial interests in some institutions, even after the division of its territories in the past few years. For one, the archdiocese owns 8.5% of Bank of the Philippine Islands the Philippines' second largest bank and has shares in San Miguel Corporation, Southeast Asia's largest food and beverage company. The archdiocese also owns schools, hostels, charitable institutions and a travel agency."

It is referring to the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Manila. I don't mean to raise a religious debate here, or to insult religious persons, meron na kasi pati akong related thread, but since when naging business entity ang isang archdiocese, morally and legally?

Namumulat na ako sa hypocrisy ng church.

actually it's the reverse of it. you cannot blame the church. the church is not like Mcdo who buys all prime corner lots and stoplight intersections estate and hope that people will not see thru that hidden agenda and still think of them as just your friendly neighborhood burger shop.

long ago, when there were trees and jungles and farm animals or take for example Africa na lang, missionaries were sent by the Vatican to build makeshift churches sa mga not fit for human habitation places na ito. ganun din nangyari sa atin. sa mga barrios natin na naging town then naging munisipyo then city.

a church is built. people flock-in bec. they think it's a holy place -> a safe place. then the outreach services wing of the church will turn to nearby hospitals and the civilian officials will turn into a city hall. then schools, then cafeterias, restaurants and last but not least, the new neighbor of the church -> INTERNET CAFEs

kaya pansin mo, halos sa lahat ng towns dito sa'tin. halos magkatabi lang ang munisipyo at simbahan. that's history. and history has its perks, hindi naman kaila na talagang mataas ang real estate value ng matataong lugar. swerte mo nga pag minana mo lupa ng magulang mo lapit sa church

so dont blame them. dont even accuse them of hypocrisy bec. if not for them, peaceful communities will never be built nor survive.

=====

now, bakit you may ask pag-aari ng Vatican/simbahan ang mga churches na ito? why you'd rather wish the church be owned by Govt? or by a community? eh di compromised kagad ang beliefs nila if they are owned by these other entities.

it's like this, may abusadong town mayor. the priests&churhc protect the people. sasabihin lang ng mayor, umalis nga kayo dyan, sa gobyerno ang lupang yan.

[Emgeesy]

I read others' posts, but the ones that are not a direct answer, I don't, and those (the links) that came from the very entity that I question (the archdiocese).

brod, you are questioning the acrhdiocese of manila yet you don't believe nor listen to their official statement in their website, why is that so? are you inclined to listen and believe more to hearsays and people who have no capacity and authority to speak for the same church that you are questioning? medyoa nalilito yata ako sa statements mo.

Kung hindi business entity ang isang archdiocese, kanino naka-pangalan ung shares?

brod, kaya nga may mga board of trustees mga iyan and it's officers. if you're not familiar with sec registrations et. al. you can request a copy of it's sec registration thru the philippine security exchange commission's website. they also have a hotline. it's an open book po so don't be shy to ask questions regarding the real owners.

I don't care about the donations. If I would question it, it would be in another thread, although the investments probably came from donations.

so, wala ka pala paki sa donations? eh ano ba talaga pakay at hinahanap mo na sagot? hinahanp mo ba kung sino may ari ng archdiocese of manila o mayari ng bpi and san miguel? bpi po ay si zobel and san miguel si danding. they're the majority owners po. sa pagkakaalam ko po, ang may ari po ng simbahan katoliko ay si god/jesus. :D

If they hire professionals to represent and/or advise them in finance, eh di malamang overhead un.

what do you mean overhead? syempre to hire professionals, you need to at least compensate for their services, thus you need overhead expenses for it. kung pro bono naman eh di thank you. wala naman masama mag hire ng professional pag dating sa financial matter. hindi naman lahat ng pari eh lawyer, doktor, abogado, arkitekto, engineer atbp. syempre kailangan nila mag hire ng mga ganun tao. common sense lang po.

Ung mga previous post ko, hindi yon paninira. They are facts.

brod, they are not facts..they are hearsays. according to webster dictionary, a fact is 1. Information presented as objectively real. 2. A real occurrence; an event: substantiated with evidence.

Hindi ako tira ng tira. I base my replies on what I read, including others' posts.
Kung ang nagimbento nga ng criticism ay mga gaya ng sinabi mo, daming tatamaan dito.

totoo iyan..madami tatamaan dito lalo na pag ang impormasyon na sinasabi ay pure hearsay o walang ebidensiya. you only based your replies on what you read and hear. thats not facts..its what they call hearsay po.

Kung kakausapin ko ang parish priest, no comment lang yun panigurado.

ahh...kaya pala dito po kayo nagtatanong, di po ba? di ba mas maganda po na malaman ninyo ang katotohanan coming from the horse's mouth ikaw nga? why are you so skeptical and judgmental? i don't think i'm in the best position nor others here to answer your queries po. baka naman po pwede ninyo tanongin ang pari ninyo. siya po makakapag sabi tungkol sa mga katanungan ninyo. let's get to the point and tackle the issue head on. wag na po tayo mag paligoy ligoy.

Based on what I read in other posts, ung mga taong insecure at nagju-justify lang e yun ang mga defensive (answering irrelevantly) at over-reacting (mahaba pero most of the content is irrelevant) kung mag-post.

sino po ba tinutukoy ninyo? baka naman po pede po paki expound on this? basta po ako, hindi po ako experto sa mga tanong ninyo at wala din po ako koneksyon sa simbahang katoliko maliban sa isa po akong makasalanan at imperpektong katoliko. yung mga sinabi ko po ay base lang iyon sa mga pahayag galing sa official website nila.

If an entity cannot represent itself, then it is only as good as its representative regarding external affairs (excluding God Himself of course). Tingnan mo yung mga may mga abogadong mamahalin, as an example. The Church is only as good as the priests (general term) that represent it.

ganun po ba? eh di pag ang anak ay pumatay eh di parang pumatay na din ang ama? tama po ba? kasalanan po iyon di ba?

ang masasabi ko lang po ay hindi po lahat ng pari ay masama. wag po natin lahatin sila. all we need to do is put away one bad egg from a dozen. as simple as that. tao lang sila kaya meron sila ibat ibang isip, paniniwala at paninindigan. ang simbahang katoliko ay hindi po despotic or dictatorship na kung anong sabihin ng puno ay siyang dapat gawin ng followers niya. pinapractice din po ng simbahan ang freedom of expression and free will with accordance to their precepts and the bible.

IMO the teachings in the Bible is perfect, but its form is not.

questioning its form is tantamount to questioning it's contents. di po ba?

Para san pa ba ung donations? For example, kukuha sila ng donations sa middle-class, tapos ibibigay nila sa lower-class.

ito po ba ay tanong o opinion? sa aking pagkakaalam, ang mga donation ay kailangan para may pondo ang simbahan. alam na ninyo po iyon kung para saan. hindi na po natin ulit ulitin dito kung para saan yon. (see below statement)

I do understand that they need money for their expenses, its inevitable, after all, thats why I said "the Church's human leaders have no choice but to adapt, otherwise they will eventually be dissolved."

buti naman po at sinagot ninyo ang inyong katanungan.

I am just skeptical about the stock investments and business ventures, not that I don't trust the priests, but I think that there are persons (including some priests) that would try to "benefit" from those, if you know what I mean.

of course some will benefit from the income from their investments. sino ba nagsabi hindi sila makikinabang? but the point is that majority of their earnings are given to the poor in terms of community services, housing, spreading the word of god and enlightenment.

The Bible is against monetary wealth, or any wealth that can be converted to monetary wealth, ano pa ba?

baka gusto ninyo po i quote dito para naman po malaman ng iba kung ano yung sinasabi ninyo. pag paumanhin ninyo ako kasi hindi po ako nag bible study.

kala ko po hindi kayo sumusunod sa biblya word for word? tama po ba?

Yes, walang sinabi sa Bible na bawal magpayaman ang isang priest, pero sa tingin mo ba magandang tingnan ang isang priest na nagpapayaman? That's one of the principles that is used by those that circumvent the law. At kahit half joke ito, meron priest na ganyan (nagpapayaman).

i believe they are some priest who have taken advantage of the church. im pretty sure of that, but i don't think all of them are practicing like that. i think they are just isolated cases. wala pa kasi ako kilalang pari na nakatira sa mansion ng forbes, dasma, ayala alabang at nakasakay sa rolls royce. baka naman meron po kayong kilalang ganun pari, sabihin ninyo po dito at i-expose natin sila.

let's look at the whole white bond paper instead of looking at the small blot of ink in it.

maraming salamt kapatid.

[pup2]

At first I was disappointed at the shallowness of the analysis and response from the posters. Good thing there was a late rally.

[AeonBlaire]

Judgemental? That's only half the story. The other half is trying to understand why, why did they have to engage in big business ventures, as if donations and fund raising campaigns aren't enough.
Now I think thats my subconscious motive here.

Even if a priest is technically not the Church, still, the Church is represented by the priests, and any action done by the priests will reflect on the Church.

Isa lang naman ang alam kong case sa Bible in which a rich man didn't go to Heaven, yung nag-commit ng "sin of no action". Ok lang talaga sa yo ang priest na nagpapayaman 'no? As long as he is "sharing his wealth". I strongly believe that being wealthy for the purpose of helping the needy is
just an excuse to be wealthy. Unless inherited nung priest. And I strongly believe that a good example of a priest is the one who would refuse any kind of material wealth given to him. Does our Law prohibit a priest from running for Office? Wala yata e, so ok lang pala. Meron na nga yatang
nanalo, correct me kung wala pa. Wow dual authority ung priest pag nagkataon, pag nagfail ung governmental authority niya, may backup siya. I hope hindi siya kayang lamunin ng seduction of power.

If you are skeptic about someone, would you listen to their statements? Di ba hindi? You will try to find several "second opinions", from sources not in anyway connected to the person you are questioning, so that the answers you get is unbiased.

Board of Trustees and Officers? Lawyers? Wow they really have the guts and resources to be involved in complex matters.

Bakit ko naman hahanapin kung sino mayari ng archdiocese na yon? Bakit meron ba dapat mag-may-ari non?

You don't trust wikipedia don't you? Alin ba sa excerpt na nilagay ko dito ang hearsay at fact? Siguro naman ung nakalagay dun na travel agency, totoo, ikaw na rin ang nagbigay ng link.

Ikaw, nabasa mo lang din naman ung link, eh di hearsay lang yon? Sabi mo kasi "you only based your replies on what you read and hear".

FYI hindi ako paligoy-ligoy. Ang mga paligoy-ligoy ay yung madaming side story.

As I've said the representatives' action will reflect with what they represent. Pag nakapatay ang anak, siempre hindi nakapatay ang ama, but what will the victim's family think about the father? Hindi maiiwasan na may negative effect sa reputation nung tatay. Again, I'm exluding God here.

Siempre hindi lahat ng pari ay "naliligaw ng landas" (pangit kasi nung term na "masama" pag ikinabit sa priest), sino ba naglalahat? The specific topic here is the hypocrisy of some.

Maybe they are not despotic or a dictatorship, but for sure they have their own internal politics.

No, questioning the form is not tantamount to questioning it's contents. Its like the intention is correct but the action is not.

The donations are for fund raising. Exactly. E kung san san na yata napunta yun.

Sino yung sinasabi mo na "will benefit from the income of their investments?

I don't have to quote from the Bible. Everyone who encountered numerous homilies know of it.

Yun naman pala e, you believe that there are some priests who have taken advantage, kaya skeptical ako sa mga business ventures na yan. Sino ba talaga nagsasabi na lahat sila e ganun? Ako ba? Questioning one archdiocese does not mean I'm questioning all.

Hindi talaga titira ang mga taking advantage na priest sa forbes, dasma, ayala alabang at sasakay sa rolls royce, mercedes, BMW, etc., obvious na obvious sila dun e. For some examples take a look at the related thread that I made http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47201. They are not exactly the ones that we are talking about here, pero merong isa na nagpapayaman. These are the examples for hypocrisy. Now if you don't believe the stories, its your problem.

If we don't look at the small blot it might crawl and fill the whole paper.

I'm not against the existence of the Church, like others think. I just wished that they strongly adhere to their teachings. But I guess this is just plain impossible.

[oliver1013]

Pari, pastor, ministro, mangangaral etc. tao lahat yan. Lahat yan nagkakamali din. Kung perpekto yan Diyos na yan

[jonski]

Sa pagkakalam ko ay hindi nagbabayad ng tax ang simbahan from Church properties, lands, and Church-owned schools...i mean isa sa mga pinakamahal na tuition ang mga christian school.

[ringostarr]

Judgemental? That's only half the story. The other half is trying to understand why, why did they have to engage in big business ventures, as if donations and fund raising campaigns aren't enough.
Now I think thats my subconscious motive here.

Even if a priest is technically not the Church, still, the Church is represented by the priests, and any action done by the priests will reflect on the Church.

you're putting words into the mouth of the faithful. ikaw siguro ganyan ang pananaw. pero not us.

not all actions done by the priest reflect the Church.

it's like saying kung ayaw mo sa pulitiko mo ayaw mo na din sa gobyerno.

the govt still comprises us citizens just like the Church is to us religious people. so whether you like it or not, you are still part of the institution that you are trying to label as hypocrites.

think out of the box for the moment. hindi if it's not you, it's them kind of thinking. that's dangerous

[AeonBlaire]

Wow baka ma-deadz ako nyan? Friendly joke lang ha...

"the Country/Nationality still comprises us citizens just like the
Church is to us religious people"... I think this is the more appropriate statement.

You didn't actually say, pero mauuna na akong mag-correct:

I didn't say I don't like the Church, I just don't like the hypocrisy that exists in it because of some people that lead it.

The Church I'm referring to is the Church as a functional organization, and not as the institution (AFAIK, they are different), and specifically the leadership and those that represent the leadership.

E kung walang mga priests, may Church pa kaya? Sabagay may mga madre pa. Pero sino ba nagpapatatag sa Church (as a functional organization)?
Di ba priests din?

An organization has its goals. One of the goals of the Church is to help people live a decent life by providing funds. Yes they are doing it. Another goal is to promote peace and goodwill. To do that, the leaders should be a good example of peace and goodwill. What if the leadership is not a good example? So negative effect na sa image ng organization.

Yes, maybe konti lang at isolated cases lang ung mga "naliligaw ng landas", e pano kung dumami? Lumaki? Baka in the future magkaron tayo ng priest na business tycoon. Kasi ok lang naman sa iba (or most?) magpayaman ang priest e. As long as he is "sharing". Wow philanthropist. Or maybe magkaron tayo ng mayor, governor, congessman, senador, or even president at vice president na priest. Aba baka mag-travel back in time tayo sa Spanish occupation.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I think this is possible, if we let the leaders of our Church (as an institution) to go about their way, even if it is very unethical.

And possible talaga because we lack good leaders in our nation. Para bang "sige basta mas mabait, at nag sha-share ng wealth, talo talo na."

For me, its unfair to say that whether I like it or not I'm a part of it. Parang "whether you like it or not, you are an employee of the company, so whatever the management decides, you will swallow it." Tapos sasabihin "kung ayaw mo umalis ka." San naman kaya ako pupunta?

But wait,

I'm not a religious person per se, am I still a member? Does that prohibit me from believing in Him?

[rai2k8]

It is not hypocrisy. Having investments is how the Catholic Church sustains itself. Sa tingin nyo saan nanggagaling ang funds for their orphanages or their missions like going to far away provinces and offer help to those that even the government has already ignored?

It will only become a sin kung sila mismo (priests and nuns) ang sisira ng kanilang vow of poverty, by having excessive amounts of extravagant stuff for themselves. Pero kung ang investments ng Church ang paguusapan like earning from legit businesses, it is not hypocrisy.

Just my 2 cents.

[rai2k8]

matagal ko na alam yan kaya nga hindi narin ako nagsisimba eh simula ng mamulat ako sa katotohanan na lokohan lng yan!

naaawa ako sa mga myembro nyan na uto uto.

yun mama ko nga sinabihan ko lam mo ba sa history ang daming pinapatay ng simbahan? sbi sakin ah tlaga ganun ba----hindi makapaniwala

parang corporation dapat magdeclare din sila ng gano kalaki assets nila o net worth para mai-rank sila at para magkaalaman na

biruin mo umaasa lng sila sa halos lahat libre ang laki pa ng contributions tapos pag may ipapagawa sa simbahan ibang singilan pa yun. eh san kaya napunta yun regular contrubutions nila.

nagkaron na sa eye-witness ata yun documentary sa kng san ba napupunta ang mga donasyon sa simbahan sayang di ko napanood. matanong ko lng. ilan posryento ba sa bawat piso na binibigay ntin sa kanila ang napupunta sa vatican?

It doesn't mean necessarily na if you believe in Jesus, uto-uto ka na. It's true maraming pinatay noon ang mga Christian. But did you know that the Roman emperor during that time used the religion only as an excuse for their savage wars? It's too bad that you don't believe that there is a Higher Being. But I bet you will be asking for His help pag nasa crisis ka na

[AeonBlaire]

rai2k8, I like your post (#49), very clean and direct. No offense to the other posters, its just me .

All I can say about your reply is, sana hindi sila magkaron ng attachment, somewhat like a personal attachment, dun sa investment na yun. Usually kasi pag nag invest ka, mag-a-allocate ka ng extra time and effort para i-manage ung investment mo, hence attachment.

[bayonic]

the church as an organization is composed of mortal men and women ... and like any other organization , they have a heirarchy or structure ...
the way the organization moves forward depends on who is on the top of the heirarchy because they are those who makes the decisions on important matters.

i've known good priests and nuns and i've known bad priests and nuns ... parang gobyerno din yan ... may mga corrupt at may mga talagang gumagawa ng kani-kanilang trabaho at may pagmamalasakit sa bansa.

ang problema lang ay ... gaya din ng gobyerno, ang mga nagkakaroon ng katungkulan ay yong mga may ambisyun at kadalasan , ang mga ito ay nag uumapaw ang ambisyun at nakilumutan na kung bakit sila pumasok sa pagpapari.

at hindi lang naman ang relihiyong Katoliko ay may ganitong problema ... meron ding mga scandals ang mga Buddhists Monks sa Thailand, mga Imams sa Indonesia mga Taoists sa China mga Hindu sa Nepal at kung saan saan pa.

palibhasa, sila ay mga tao din.

[AeonBlaire]

and like any other organization , they have a hierarchy or structure ...
the way the organization moves forward depends on who is on the top of the hierarchy because they are those who makes the decisions on important matters.

Well, that's why I said they have their own internal politics.

ang problema lang ay ... gaya din ng gobyerno, ang mga nagkakaroon ng katungkulan ay yong mga may ambisyun at kadalasan , ang mga ito ay nag uumapaw ang ambisyun at nakilumutan na kung bakit sila pumasok sa pagpapari.

This is one of the reasons why I raised the issue here.

[pitbullz]

wala akong problema o paki kung madami silang pera...

pero may problema ako sa pakikialam ng simbahang katoliko sa policy making ng bansa. wag na sila sumawsaw dyan...

[AeonBlaire]

Wow official na, Category na ang Religion hehe.

Sadly, the Church is one of the organizations na kelangan hingan ng approval, para daw maging Constitutional ang Succession in case of a power vacuum.

Well correct me if I'm wrong, nabasa ko lang naman. Baka siguro mali lang interpretation ko nung nabasa ko.

[Lucius]

Remember Pamintuan yung nangurakot sa Holy Cross sa QC. Eto ang isa sa mga pinakahayop. Sa kanya yung 7-11 dun. Buti ngayon ayos na simbahan. Dami nya pakulo dati mga BINGO, RAFFLE. Wow kapal

[froshie1]

To the TS ano ba ang pagkakaintindi mo sa vow of poverty?

[AeonBlaire]

"Vow of Poverty"

Honestly, hindi ko alam na may ganyang vow. Pero FYI, hindi ko ginamit ang phrase na yan.

Well, sa unang tingin, sa unang dinig, someone would think, kelangan magpakahirap ka. Pero hindi para sa kin.

It means to live life in simplicity.

[rai2k8]

"Vow of Poverty"

Honestly, hindi ko alam na may ganyang vow. Pero FYI, hindi ko ginamit ang phrase na yan.

Well, sa unang tingin, sa unang dinig, someone would think, kelangan magpakahirap ka. Pero hindi para sa kin.

It means to live life in simplicity.

Yup. Priests and nuns have a few vows that they should stick to. I practically grew up in a Catholic school since I spent my elementary and high school days in an exclusive for girls school. Kasama sa mga naituro sa amin dati ay yung process kung pano ka magiging madre like yung apprentice stage (nakalimutan ko na tawag) sila yung mga maigsi ang buhok tapos nakawhite lang. Then if papasa sila sa mga tests, they can get 'married' to Jesus hence, serving Him for the rest of their lives. Like normal marriages, meron din silang vows. Kasama dito yung vows of chastity, celibacy, and poverty. Vow of poverty means living a very simple life, free from worldly wealth. Pati food nila dapat hindi masarap. Yung tama lang. Bawal ang extravagance. Yung funds ng Church dapat nakalaan yan sa mga Church missions, kaso may mga nanamantala.

The Catholic Church itself should not be scrutinized for having investments. Walang sweldo ang mga religious leaders so they depend on contributions. Alam naman nating lahat na kumokonti na ang naniniwala sa religion so it means lower contributions. They have to make ways para mapaikot nila ang funds and having investment sa mga malalaking businesses ay siguradong kikita sila. Kung aasa na lang sa offerings during Mass ang simbahan, baka mamatay na ang mga religious leaders sa gutom. Kelangan din nilang kumain.

BUT, kung itong funds na ito ay napupunta lamang sa pagpapatayo nila ng sariling mansion nila, ibang usapan na yun.

[froshie1]

Ang vow of poverty, hindi ito dapat iinterpret na ang tao na nagtake nito ay dapat maghirap... Ang ibig sabihin nito ay pagsheshare ng mga bagay sa lahat para sa grupo (Acts 4:32-5:11)

Example: May nakita kang priest na naka sasakyan na maganda. Yeah, malamang sasama ang tingin mo sa kanya at baket sya naka sasakyan, yan ba nag vow of poverty? Pero imbes na sumama ang loob mo sa kanila ano ba ang purpose ng baket sila may sasakyan? Ang priest kailangan ng sasakyan para maka-travel from point A to point B. hindi lang travel, kailangan nila nandun on time so by saying that kailangan lang talaga nila ng isang maayos at comportableng sasakyan para makapag evangelize sila. At iyong sasakyan na iyon ang may pagaari noon ay ang congregation nila.

Ang again, there's nothing wrong if a person is rich. Ang purpose po ng kayamanan is to help other people. Do you know Bo Sanchez? Try attending The Feast. And when it comes to the priests that you accused of being rich, are you sure that the money that they have is their own money, the vehicle that they drive belongs to them?

Saying "Being wealthy for the purpose of helping the needy is just an excuse to be wealthy." I'm not sure kung saan ka nagsisimba or sino nagtuturo sa iyo yan, pero yan ang turo sa akin. So excuse pala ni Mother Teresa ang pagiging wealthy? Remember Mother Teresa's networth is $17M pero saan napunta lahat iyon?