Arroya as a Nazi?

[JackFlash]

Ha-ha! Let's change na lang the thread title..........

See? That's how evil GMA is. Even those who are against her end up arguing among themselves. Kaya pala hindi mapatalsik itong unanong ito.

No, Gloria is not a Nazi. She's just plain nasty.

[nicolodeon]

What's this? Ah...okay...time to get my :popcorn:

[buriroy]

[QUOTE=Jun aka Pekto;1382419]Of course it's evil to nuke those civilians. It's also evil for the Japanese to use babies for bayonet practice along with the killing of hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians in Nanking. War is hell whichever way you look at it. But don't make the Japanese who died in the atomic blasts as special. The Japanese had already made it clear that civilians were okay to target long before the atomic blasts. If you believe the BS Japanese are teaching their kids now that such massacres never occurred, then tell that to the Chinese. They'll be happy to educate you.

Your statement "But don't make the Japanese who died in the atomic blasts as special." is downright callous to say the least. These people were mostly innocent and unarmed women and children who did not deserve to be roasted alive in a fiery atomic blast. They should not be made to answer for the faults and abuses of their military establishment, just like ordinary American citizens and Pinoy Americans should not be made responsible for American GI atrocities in the Vietnam War like the My Lai massacre. And don't forget the barbarity of American soldiers in the Philippine-American war who derided us enough to compose the song "All the monkeys have no tails in Zamboanga." Just as the Jews hold their Holocaust victims as special, so should the Japanese and all decent humane people of this world be given the right to hold the Hiroshima ans Nagasaki nuclear holocaust victims special as well. To say otherwise would put you right in the company of Adolf and Harry.

[Jun aka Pekto]

[quote=buriroy;1383074]

Of course it's evil to nuke those civilians. It's also evil for the Japanese to use babies for bayonet practice along with the killing of hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians in Nanking. War is hell whichever way you look at it. But don't make the Japanese who died in the atomic blasts as special. The Japanese had already made it clear that civilians were okay to target long before the atomic blasts. If you believe the BS Japanese are teaching their kids now that such massacres never occurred, then tell that to the Chinese. They'll be happy to educate you.

Your statement "But don't make the Japanese who died in the atomic blasts as special." is downright callous to say the least. These people were mostly innocent and unarmed women and children who did not deserve to be roasted alive in a fiery atomic blast. They should not be made to answer for the faults and abuses of their military establishment, just like ordinary American citizens and Pinoy Americans should not be made responsible for American GI atrocities in the Vietnam War like the My Lai massacre. And don't forget the barbarity of American soldiers in the Philippine-American war who derided us enough to compose the song "All the monkeys have no tails in Zamboanga." Just as the Jews hold their Holocaust victims as special, so should the Japanese and all decent humane people of this world be given the right to hold the Hiroshima ans Nagasaki nuclear holocaust victims special as well. To say otherwise would put you right in the company of Adolf and Harry.

As I mentioned earlier, don't equate our line of thinking today with the line of thinking decades ago. For those who controlled the war back then, total war meant everyone is involved and therefore a target. It didn't matter whether it was the Allies or the Axis. Most of their war planning really didn't take into account about civilians. Rather, it was whether the target was destroyed or not. It didn't matter if innocent civilians were caught in between.

Many of those who planned the war in Vietnam also grew up during WW2 both on the North Vietnamese and US sides. Their line of thinking equated with the line of thinking back in WW2. Things started to change after that though.

Just as the line of thinking during WW2 and today are different. So was the line of thinking from the Fil-Am War of 1899 and WW2. I'm aware of the barbaric tactics used by US forces during the Fil-Am War to root out and defeat the Philippine guerillas along with atrocities committed. I remember reading a US book on Philippine History published during the early 20's which outlined in detail the savage tactics used and the butchery of civilians by US forces. That shows you the line of thinking then. In fact, American history too is filled with bloodshed. Nowadays, you'll never see such gory detail published because our line of thinking is way different today with too much political correctness.

Make no mistake. I'm appalled just as you would be when I imagine the horrors the atomic blast, the Dresden Raid, Nanking Massacre, and Holocaust victims went through.

"Special" is the wrong word. My mistake on that. What I should have said is not to single out any one of these victims because they all suffered equally.

If I did sound callous, it's because I'm talking through my father's thoughts; of things he told me. Now you get an idea of the agony he's going through. It's the same with some Japanese survivors of WW2.

Remember that Japanese soldier who hid in the Philippine jungle for decades after WW2 ended? He couldn't bear to see what Japan and his people had become today. He decided to abandon his home and moved to Brazil. I'm not sure if he's still alive. But, that's the last I heard.

That's why it's very important to consider the line of thinking for different time periods. People then didn't think like we do today. I'm sure our kids will grow up and think differently from us. I already see it happening.

But, let's keep things in perspective. Many Philippine leaders may have been uber crooks and super corrupt. But, all of them still had a fear of God and we Pinoys as a whole still have a sense decency although that too may be changing for the worse.

[buriroy]

[quote=Jun aka Pekto;1383126]

As I mentioned earlier, don't equate our line of thinking today with the line of thinking decades ago. For those who controlled the war back then, total war meant everyone is involved and therefore a target. It didn't matter whether it was the Allies or the Axis. Most of their war planning really didn't take into account about civilians. Rather, it was whether the target was destroyed or not. It didn't matter if innocent civilians were caught in between.

Many of those who planned the war in Vietnam also grew up during WW2 both on the North Vietnamese and US sides. Their line of thinking equated with the line of thinking back in WW2. Things started to change after that though.

Just as the line of thinking during WW2 and today are different. So was the line of thinking from the Fil-Am War of 1899 and WW2. I'm aware of the barbaric tactics used by US forces during the Fil-Am War to root out and defeat the Philippine guerillas along with atrocities committed. I remember reading a US book on Philippine History published during the early 20's which outlined in detail the savage tactics used and the butchery of civilians by US forces. That shows you the line of thinking then. In fact, American history too is filled with bloodshed. Nowadays, you'll never see such gory detail published because our line of thinking is way different today with too much political correctness.

Make no mistake. I'm appalled just as you would be when I imagine the horrors the atomic blast, the Dresden Raid, Nanking Massacre, and Holocaust victims went through.

"Special" is the wrong word. My mistake on that. What I should have said is not to single out any one of these victims because they all suffered equally.

If I did sound callous, it's because I'm talking through my father's thoughts; of things he told me. Now you get an idea of the agony he's going through. It's the same with some Japanese survivors of WW2.

Remember that Japanese soldier who hid in the Philippine jungle for decades after WW2 ended? He couldn't bear to see what Japan and his people had become today. He decided to abandon his home and moved to Brazil. I'm not sure if he's still alive. But, that's the last I heard.

That's why it's very important to consider the line of thinking for different time periods. People then didn't think like we do today. I'm sure our kids will grow up and think differently from us. I already see it happening.

But, let's keep things in perspective. Many Philippine leaders may have been uber crooks and super corrupt. But, all of them still had a fear of God and we Pinoys as a whole still have a sense decency although that too may be changing for the worse.

Your point is well-taken and thanks for the history lecture. But to say that the line of thinking today is different from that of our parents and grandparents in WW1 and WW2 just doesn't wash by my own thinking. Your said that "back then total war meant everyone is involved and therefore a target." Even back then, War was bound by certain rules of engagement like the proper treatment of POWs as embodied in the Geneva Convention and
definite rules on not directly targeting civilians/noncombatants. So our ancestors were likewise aware that to kill civilians is morally wrong even in wartime. That's why there were war tribunals and war crimes charged those who perpetrated genocide and the wholesale killing of unarmed civilians. The sad and stark reality, however, is that the war criminals usually come from the losing side. The US of A, the victor in WW2, likewise had their share of mass-murderers but as they say "History is kind to the victors" and the dastardly deed of Harry Truman of vaporizing the civilian population of not one, but two Japanese cities has been glossed over. So there's no way around it, a wrong is a wrong. Genocide and mass-murder of civilians were done by both sides and they very well knew it was wrong. No justification whatsoever.
And your last point to keep things in perspective that Philippine leaders may have been uber crooks but had a fear of God. I don't know but this is just my opinion. It is precisely because of their supposed "fear of God" and "innate decency" that makes them all the more evil and ranks them up there with good ol' Adolf. They could have made a difference and lift our countrymen out
of poverty but they chose to enrich themselves instead. Hitler at least had no qualms about gassing millions of Jews and turning their hides into lampshades. Gloria Arroyo and her ilk effect an air of piety and decency but screw us blind instead and this is truly world-class evil.

[Horsepower]

Japanese viewpoint: Hey! Look at us, we got atomic bombed for stupidly believing we are superior to the rest of the world, boo hoo hoo. We need your pity because we lost the war we started. Boo hoo hoo. People conveniently forget that Japan’s then evil empire started the invasion, especially that of our country.

I honestly do not understand that anomaly.

From the viewpoint of the then agonizing victims here in the Philippines and in China, the Atomic bomb was a great GIFT from God. Sure, it killed a little more than a bunch of people in a new fashion but it ended the war swiftly. The most important thing back then was that it made the EVIL Japanese empire surrender. It ended the gruesome murders of our citizens, babies and men; it ended the rape and mutilation of our women. It ended their agony. End of story.

To be candid, I don't really care, heck I don't even know those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why would I pretend that I do, right? I am just happy now that I am free to do what I desire and that I was born. If the war didn’t end then, my father would not have been born because my grandpa would have had to fight further. If the war didn’t end then, we’re probably not here. Our citizens would've been made slaves to the “superior race” – that is, if they left anyone alive.

Of course, in war, you don’t really care about the clowns at the other side of the fence. All you care about is seeking an end to their atrocities, the injustice that they inflict. Who cares if there will be civilian casualties? The Japanese started it. Perhaps, the only fault of those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was that they were Japanese, but such is the fact of war. People die in war. Civilians, Military, every mortal being can be a fatality. That day, they had to die; they had to be made an example so that the war will end. And may their souls rest in peace, their death at least proved to be good for everyone else that remained alive back then. They died not because of the atomic bombs, but because their leaders led them to their death. Their leaders knew the consequences of war, the collateral damage it will bring and still, they knowingly went ahead and invaded innocent people.

If I was Truman back then I would've ordered the bombs dropped too for the sake of curiosity and exhibition of power in terms of scientific achievement. He didn’t have any other choice anyway. War was costing way too much money and lives. Having seen it at Los Alamos, any scientist would wonder how it would actually work on the battlefield. For many, it was a great scientific experiment which proved fruitful because it ended the war. It ended the suffering of everyone. Unlike Truman though, I would’ve had it dropped on the residence of the stupid emperor who thought that it was okay to rape women and kill people because you think they are animals who didn't do anything wrong to you.


The Japanese Army has killed way more civilians, more than a tenfold, even a hundredfold of the Atomic bomb fatalities. So it really is overrated. It's just two nice little bombs. If there’s anyone who needs a lecture on proper war ethics, it's the Japanese Army who invaded us. You get what you give, so it goes.

For me, US President Harry S. Truman and the Manhattan Project team did me and my countrymen a great favor. I hope to visit his grave one day.

As for the present day Japanese, I don't hate them. I have many friends who are Japanese (those that I have met at School and abroad). I even have relatives who are Japanese by blood. Thanks to US media and Internet, they are normal thinking people (unlike their fellows back then). They don’t stupidly believe that their emperor is a God nor that they are the superior race who needs to kill everyone. What a relief right?!


"I knew what I was doing when I stopped the war... I have no regrets and, under the same circumstances, I would do it again." - Harry S. Truman


"I'm proud that I was able to start with nothing, plan it, and have it work as perfectly as it did... I sleep clearly every night."
- Col. Paul Tibbets, 1975

"If you give me the same circumstances, I'd do it again." - Col. Paul Tibbets, 2005

[Jun aka Pekto]

[quote=buriroy;1383657]

Your point is well-taken and thanks for the history lecture. But to say that the line of thinking today is different from that of our parents and grandparents in WW1 and WW2 just doesn't wash by my own thinking. Your said that "back then total war meant everyone is involved and therefore a target." Even back then, War was bound by certain rules of engagement like the proper treatment of POWs as embodied in the Geneva Convention and
definite rules on not directly targeting civilians/noncombatants. So our ancestors were likewise aware that to kill civilians is morally wrong even in wartime. That's why there were war tribunals and war crimes charged those who perpetrated genocide and the wholesale killing of unarmed civilians. The sad and stark reality, however, is that the war criminals usually come from the losing side. The US of A, the victor in WW2, likewise had their share of mass-murderers but as they say "History is kind to the victors" and the dastardly deed of Harry Truman of vaporizing the civilian population of not one, but two Japanese cities has been glossed over. So there's no way around it, a wrong is a wrong. Genocide and mass-murder of civilians were done by both sides and they very well knew it was wrong. No justification whatsoever.
And your last point to keep things in perspective that Philippine leaders may have been uber crooks but had a fear of God. I don't know but this is just my opinion. It is precisely because of their supposed "fear of God" and "innate decency" that makes them all the more evil and ranks them up there with good ol' Adolf. They could have made a difference and lift our countrymen out
of poverty but they chose to enrich themselves instead. Hitler at least had no qualms about gassing millions of Jews and turning their hides into lampshades. Gloria Arroyo and her ilk effect an air of piety and decency but screw us blind instead and this is truly world-class evil.

The rules certainly were in place. But, they were also easily set aside once one side violated them and the other side did the same in the name of justified retaliation. Italy, Germany, and Japan had already taken the first steps in the indiscriminate killing of civilians before the official start of WW2. Were the Allies justified in doing the same in subsequent attacks of their own? Today? No. But at their time, they probably thought so since the other side did it first. Again, it went back into that period's line of thinking.

The premise of total war took hold after WW1 when the airplane came into its own. Total war also took into account civilians who aided the war effort in any way, be it factories that provided war materiel and even agriculture that provided food to soldiers because who else would be running them? Combine that with the largely inaccurate weapons of the time and civilians caught in the fire was inevitable. We both can agree its tragic.

Should Truman have been tried as a war criminal? Perhaps. But before doing so, it might be worth noting what Japan may have been like if the atomic bombs weren't dropped and the invasion of Japan took place. Obviously, Allied casualties would be horrendous. But, would it be too far fetched to guess the Japanese population would be decimated even worse than Germany's? Take a look at most battles in the Pacific and the number of Japanese who surrendered were pitifully small, more like miniscule. A long drawn out war to control Japan would've wiped out much of the population since loyalty to the Emperor was absolute (again different lines of thought for the period). Emperor Hirohito would've been hanged if he wasn't already killed.

Truman had two options, both of them evil. Invade Japan and take the casualties or convince the Japanese to surrender and end this war now, saving lives not just Allied but Japanese as well. He chose the lesser evil. True, many Japanese died in the blast and afterwards. It's tragic. But, the only other option would be a total annihilation of the Japanese people and the end of Japan as a nation. It didn't really dawn on the Japanese that they could be wiped out. Hence their stubborn will in refusing surrender. It took two bombs to convince them otherwise.

Subsequent events showed Truman did choose the better route. The war ended quickly after the two bombs. It ended so quickly the Soviets were forced to declare war on Japan and grab as much territory as possible before the treaty was signed. Emperor Hirohito was not tried as a war criminal (credit went to MacArthur) and was there to provide leadership and guidance in the postwar years.

Try to imagine Japan totally devastated and partitioned among the Allies with no leadership and a totally subjugated population. With severe casualties incurred during the invasion, I doubt the Allies would have been more generous than they actually were. Would the postwar Japan in such a scenario be the same as what we see now? Honestly, I don't know. But, I'd lean towards no. Japan as a battleground would have seen that country totally destroyed with its recovery questionable.

The atomic bomb victims died so that other Japanese may live. It's small comfort for many, I'm sure. But, the prosperous and respected Japan we see today is testament the atomic bomb victims didn't die in vain.

If the Axis had won the war, should Truman be tried as a war criminal? Sure. But, would I want to live in such a world controlled by the Axis? No, certainly not unless maybe if I was white.

As for poor leadership in the Philippines..... Who's electing them in the first place? When a population is generally corrupt and tolerates total disregard of the law at any level, do you really expect anything better when a leader is chosen from among them? The sad part is many Pinoys don't even realize they're corrupt too. I've seen enough of that here in this forum.

[cktlcmd]

My father got orphaned during the war. He has no regrets about those Japanese who were vaporized in the atomic blasts. In fact at one time, he wished there were more than two that were dropped. To him, that's war being brought home to the Japanese and payback. He toned down his feelings since. But, that's what the trauma of war does to a person. I was born in Japan and have made many trips there. Been there. Worked there. Made friends there. I like the place and the people. I don't need to forgive because there's no crime that was done to me. But, I don't forget what happened to my father.

My grandfather who's 91 now went through that war. He still remembers how the Japanese soldiers bayoneted their way through anything that is moving. Men, women, children, and animals. No questions asked.

What was his reaction then? They should have dropped a bigger bomb in Tokyo and wipped them clean off the face of the earth, my grandfather said.

Going back to the topic...I have to agree, GMA is plain GREEDY. I don't think we can compare her yet to Hitler.

[roberto_minosa]

Making agony of the poor worse on purpose is even more evil than murder.

Arroyo > Hitler.
[SIZE=1]
at least Hitler loved his nation so much that he invaded everyone else.[/SIZE]

[buriroy]

I still go by my basic premise that it is downright evil and morally wrong to annihilate civilians en-masse, no matter what their leaders or soldiers may have done in the past, whether it be peacetime or in war.

Otherwise, it will be a never-ending cycle of retribution. Osama Bin Laden can now say that it's OK for him to have offed close to three thousand American civilians at the World Trade Center. After all, it's just a small payback for what the Americans did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima of vaporising hundreds of thousands
of Japanese civilians. And the cycle never ends, and the killings as well.

I guess I've said everything I have to say on this matter. Thanks J.a. Pekto for keeping the discussion intelligent and without rancor. I'm outta here as others are coming in spewing hatred and that's not for me. Peace, and hope to have more meaningful exchange of ideas with you in upcoming threads.

[Gen. Miting]

naimbento na atomic bomb even before hitler and mussolini surrendered. nun malaman na ng dalawang dictator na may nuke, aba eh kelangan na kagad i-negotiate ang surrender that's why palabas na lang yun pagkatalo ng 2/3 axis powers

pero mga hapon, hindi nila siguro naintindihan ang behaviour ng atom nun araw. baka mahina pa chemistry nila kaya sige bluff bluff kaya hayun biglang crash course sila sa technology after the atom bombs ...

[Gen. Miting]

I still go by my basic premise that it is downright evil and morally wrong to annihilate civilians en-masse, no matter what their leaders or soldiers may have done in the past, whether it be peacetime or in war.

Otherwise, it will be a never-ending cycle of retribution. Osama Bin Laden can now say that it's OK for him to have offed close to three thousand American civilians at the World Trade Center. After all, it's just a small payback for what the Americans did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima of vaporising hundreds of thousands
of Japanese civilians. And the cycle never ends, and the killings as well.

I guess I've said everything I have to say on this matter. Thanks J.a. Pekto for keeping the discussion intelligent and without rancor. I'm outta here as others are coming in spewing hatred and that's not for me. Peace, and hope to have more meaningful exchange of ideas with you in upcoming threads.

eto ang isang malaking TANONG ko sa WWII bakit Nagasaki saka Hiroshima ang binagsakan ba't hindi Tokyo? kung talagang annihilation or genocide ang pakay ng allied eh di dun ibagsak

ang sa pagkaalam ko dun pabrika ng hapon ng mga tangke, saka bayonet, saka airplane sa nagasaki/hiroshima

[Jun aka Pekto]

I still go by my basic premise that it is downright evil and morally wrong to annihilate civilians en-masse, no matter what their leaders or soldiers may have done in the past, whether it be peacetime or in war.

Otherwise, it will be a never-ending cycle of retribution. Osama Bin Laden can now say that it's OK for him to have offed close to three thousand American civilians at the World Trade Center. After all, it's just a small payback for what the Americans did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima of vaporising hundreds of thousands
of Japanese civilians. And the cycle never ends, and the killings as well.

I guess I've said everything I have to say on this matter. Thanks J.a. Pekto for keeping the discussion intelligent and without rancor. I'm outta here as others are coming in spewing hatred and that's not for me. Peace, and hope to have more meaningful exchange of ideas with you in upcoming threads.

We actually have the same attitude in that such disasters are tragic and horrendous. We'd both be appalled if such suffering were unleashed upon us today.

I'm done here as well. I'm out of things to say as well.

As for Japan, I'm one of those who admire the country and its people today. It's a very different country now some old-timers say. I plan to visit some more in the future because I have friends there and it's such a fun place to visit. I harbor no grudges. It's simply impossible to after talking and knowing the people in general. The only reason now that I never forget my Pop's past is so that I never forget the lessons learned as well.