BUS accident again

[enzo6k]

rear fog lamps are the correct way to be visible in those condition.

hazard lamps are for emergency use only, and for illegal parking use

[oj88]

My apologies, my post is not intended to sound like an insult. I tried to sound funny and direct though.
Your previous post caught my attention solely from the number (3-4 cars) hazzard lights that can cause discomfort to you. I found similiraity with the case of my previous driver who was later diagnose with a medical condition, hence my comment.

I only based my comments from the facts in your previous post. But since you retorted that a sea of hazzard lights not just 3-4 pair have the same annoyance to you then Im mistaken to compare that to my driver case.

There are a lot of nuances in vehicle and road signals that, through the years, have been bastardized due to lack of understanding on how they should be used. The hazard light is one of them.

You may have a different interpretation of their use, but to me, it's always to signify and caution the other drivers of what lies ahead. Things like;

1. Your car broke down and stalled or got into an accident
2. Your car broke down with a CEL, but is still running, and you're driving it to a safe parking area or shoulder in "limp mode"
3. The car in front of you has broken down in the middle of the road or ran into an accident
4. You have to slow down because of hazards or debris on the road (Chemical spill, road kill, open manhole, large pothole, etc)
... just to name a few.

If you follow that logic, hazard lamps are more for signaling than it is for providing visibility. It is to say that turning it on, you are signalling the other drivers that there's a hazard up ahead.... NOT "Look at me!".

You will also notice that certain cars would flash their brake lights or hazard lights a few times as a result of sudden braking.

In heavy rain, particularly at night, drivers already know that it's hazardous. They will no doubt, drive even more sensibly, taking advantage of whatever cues they get off the road markings and the other vehicles, making an extraordinary effort not to hit anything. Turning on the flashers will only exacerbate the situation by blinding others behind you, impairing their night vision, and again, mask other dangers.

[n_spinner06]

There are a lot of nuances in vehicle and road signals that, through the years, have been bastardized due to lack of understanding on how they should be used. The hazard light is one of them.

You may have a different interpretation of their use, but to me, it's always to signify and caution the other drivers of what lies ahead. Things like;

1. Your car broke down and stalled or got into an accident
2. Your car broke down with a CEL, but is still running, and you're driving it to a safe parking area or shoulder in "limp mode"
3. The car in front of you has broken down in the middle of the road or ran into an accident
4. You have to slow down because of hazards or debris on the road (Chemical spill, road kill, open manhole, large pothole, etc)
... just to name a few.

If you follow that logic, hazard lamps are more for signaling than it is for providing visibility. It is to say that turning it on, you are signalling the other drivers that there's a hazard up ahead.... NOT "Look at me!".

You will also notice that certain cars would flash their brake lights or hazard lights a few times as a result of sudden braking.

In heavy rain, particularly at night, drivers already know that it's hazardous. They will no doubt, drive even more sensibly, taking advantage of whatever cues they get off the road markings and the other vehicles, making an extraordinary effort not to hit anything. Turning on the flashers will only exacerbate the situation by blinding others behind you, impairing their night vision, and again, mask other dangers.

Just to play the devil's advocate...they are not telling people to look at them, just making sure others see them. Magkaiba yun. What if they think they are a hazard to others and rightfully signalling so? [emoji23] Justified na ba?[emoji23]

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[leonleon]

At the end of the day,
When you die,
It doesnt matter if you didnt believe in the use of hazzards lights during severe driving conditons.
Your funeral procession will still be a long line of cars with their hazzard lights ON.
Ironic,

Speaking of funeral processions, found this on the net:

Driving in a funeral procession. Funeral processions are an exception to most hazard light guidelines. It’s customary for vehicles in a funeral procession to drive with their hazard lights on, even when it is otherwise prohibited by law.

When to Use Your Car's Hazard Lights | Completely Firestone

[glenn_duke]

There are a lot of nuances in vehicle and road signals that, through the years, have been bastardized due to lack of understanding on how they should be used. The hazard light is one of them.

You may have a different interpretation of their use, but to me, it's always to signify and caution the other drivers of what lies ahead. Things like;

1. Your car broke down and stalled or got into an accident
2. Your car broke down with a CEL, but is still running, and you're driving it to a safe parking area or shoulder in "limp mode"
3. The car in front of you has broken down in the middle of the road or ran into an accident
4. You have to slow down because of hazards or debris on the road (Chemical spill, road kill, open manhole, large pothole, etc)
... just to name a few.

If you follow that logic, hazard lamps are more for signaling than it is for providing visibility. It is to say that turning it on, you are signalling the other drivers that there's a hazard up ahead.... NOT "Look at me!".

You will also notice that certain cars would flash their brake lights or hazard lights a few times as a result of sudden braking.

In heavy rain, particularly at night, drivers already know that it's hazardous. They will no doubt, drive even more sensibly, taking advantage of whatever cues they get off the road markings and the other vehicles, making an extraordinary effort not to hit anything. Turning on the flashers will only exacerbate the situation by blinding others behind you, impairing their night vision, and again, mask other dangers.

I agree in all the points you mentioned with the use of hazzard lights, although I know someone here will disagree that a vehicle in CEL is also a reason to use your hazzard lights.

I dont recommend flashing the hazzard lights during sudden braking, because in this situation both your hands should be in the steering wheel, to steer away safely if possible in case you dont have enough braking distance. If the stop is momentary no need for the hazzard lights, just keep your foot on the brake pedal.

In inclement weather with low visibility, especially at night, dont trust drivers around you to drive sensibly. With our drivers licensing system screwed and source of corruption, not many drivers out there are fit to be drivers. And more ammusing this drivers will surely answer the lto question on hazzard lights correctly, thanks to the fixers for the tip.

On the night of the fatal bus accident at NLEX, 8 cars and suv were involved in a collision near the malinta exit. I believe the drivers of each car passes and saw the bus accident site and yet took no precaution and end up in their own accident. There is also one that is not reported, on the same night a truck rear ended a private jeep near the bocaue exit. So drivers driving sensibly to conditions, sadly, hardly exist in the Philippines.

Hazzard lights unless modified, are not design to blind nor impair the vision of the drivers behind. Just like the example in my previous post, 30 left turning cars with turn lights on is no different to 15 side by side cars with hazzards light on.

To me if driving conditions change and become unsafe, I will use that hazzard lights Some may call me an idiot thats fine, better than being called a casualty.

[Ry_Tower]

You don't necessarily need to be a casualty if you follow the law.

Better yet i case of accident at least the presumption is that you are not negligent because you are following the law. If ever - forbade not of course - you happen to figure in an accident with your hazards on when the law says you should not use it, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you are not negligent. It is a reputable presumption that you are the one who is at fault.

Hazards are generally to be used when stationary and in a dangerous area. Not when moving even if you are crawling because of limp mode. The ability to make turn signal is way more important than added visibility because the carvhas park lights and headlights after all.

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[glenn_duke]

You don't necessarily need to be a casualty if you follow the law.

Better yet i case of accident at least the presumption is that you are not negligent because you are following the law. If ever - forbade not of course - you happen to figure in an accident with your hazards on when the law says you should not use it, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you are not negligent. It is a reputable presumption that you are the one who is at fault.

Hazards are generally to be used when stationary and in a dangerous area. Not when moving even if you are crawling because of limp mode. The ability to make turn signal is way more important than added visibility because the carvhas park lights and headlights after all.

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I have yet to see an accident caused by hazzard lights. Do you know of any documented hazzard light sccident in the philippines?

[Ry_Tower]

I have yet to see an accident caused by hazzard lights. Do you know of any documented hazzard light sccident in the philippines?

Documented no. Don't have time to research.But stories about hitting the front car because of assumption that a car with a hazard light turn the same way the car behind is overtaking, yes.

A visit to a local police station or traffic management office will be enough to convince anyone of the perils of using hazards when moving.

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[Ry_Tower]

When Hazard Lights say "I'm an idiot!" ... from Top Gear Philippines – Wheels of Justice | Facebook

Ah found this one. A motorist asked a topgear writer about an accident he was engaged in.

The explanation by the writer says it all.

BTW I have been in 2 defensive driving seminars and both times the instructor's told us not to use the HL when in motion.

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[oj88]

I dont recommend flashing the hazzard lights during sudden braking, because in this situation both your hands should be in the steering wheel, to steer away safely if possible in case you dont have enough braking distance. If the stop is momentary no need for the hazzard lights, just keep your foot on the brake pedal.

You don't enable it manually. Emergency/sudden braking triggers it. It is already available in many modern vehicles. Or at the least, it's starting to become more common.

In inclement weather with low visibility, especially at night, dont trust drivers around you to drive sensibly. With our drivers licensing system screwed and source of corruption, not many drivers out there are fit to be drivers. And more ammusing this drivers will surely answer the lto question on hazzard lights correctly, thanks to the fixers for the tip.

On the night of the fatal bus accident at NLEX, 8 cars and suv were involved in a collision near the malinta exit. I believe the drivers of each car passes and saw the bus accident site and yet took no precaution and end up in their own accident. There is also one that is not reported, on the same night a truck rear ended a private jeep near the bocaue exit. So drivers driving sensibly to conditions, sadly, hardly exist in the Philippines.

That would've been fine to use the flashers as people drove by.

Hazzard lights unless modified, are not design to blind nor impair the vision of the drivers behind. Just like the example in my previous post, 30 left turning cars with turn lights on is no different to 15 side by side cars with hazzards light on.

Blinding in a sense that it masks other things. You see, the nuance between a tail light that is turned on and a tail light with the brakes applied, can be masked, to a certain extent, by the blinking hazard lamps. Also, 30 left turning cars only takes a few seconds to a couple of minutes to disappear or dissipate, and they're likely to be stopped anyway and gives you some freedom to look at other things. But driving with the hazard flashers on the road, and you'll be following that car (or cars) for miles.

Different situations.

But anyway, I think I've said my piece. One of the reasons this forum exists is so that we can teach each other to be better drivers, regardless of the corrupt norms in Philippine traffic. We should try to be the bigger man as best as we can.

[glenn_duke]

You don't enable it manually. Emergency/sudden braking triggers it. It is already available in many modern vehicles. Or at the least, it's starting to become more common.

Huraah , if this new braking system becomes a standard in vehicles, it will be slap to the face of LTOs, (copied) anti hazzard regulation. In sudden braking you are not to turn on your hazzard lights because you will not be able to signal the car behind you of your intended direction in case you have to change lanes to avoid the hazzard in front.

This proves two things.
1. Toyota safety engineers are convince brake lights alone are not adequate signal during emergency braking.

2. Toyota engineers does not believe losing the ability to signal during emergency braking is a critical reason to not use the hazzard lights.

I hope this innovation continues Im sure in the very near future, visibility sensors will be introduce that will automatically reduce your speed , turn on the headlights and turn on the hazzard lights.

The question now , are anti-hazzard lights advocate will buy vehicles equiped with this technology.?

[maxpedition]

https://www.topgear.com.ph/features/...ng-in-the-rain

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[oj88]

Huraah , if this new braking system becomes a standard in vehicles, it will be slap to the face of LTOs, (copied) anti hazzard regulation. In sudden braking you are not to turn on your hazzard lights because you will not be able to signal the car behind you of your intended direction in case you have to change lanes to avoid the hazzard in front.

This proves two things.
1. Toyota safety engineers are convince brake lights alone are not adequate signal during emergency braking.

2. Toyota engineers does not believe losing the ability to signal during emergency braking is a critical reason to not use the hazzard lights.

I hope this innovation continues Im sure in the very near future, visibility sensors will be introduce that will automatically reduce your speed , turn on the headlights and turn on the hazzard lights.

On #2, I think that's stretching it. For one, the emergency brake flashes are temporary. It disables itself, presumably, when you let your foot off the brake pedal. 2nd, when you are doing obstruction-avoidance while hard-braking, I don't think that engaging the turn signal would be the first thing on your mind. In that regard, I think that flashing the hazard lights or the brake lights should provide sufficient warning to the vehicle behind to slow down or approach with caution.

The question now , are anti-hazzard lights advocate will buy vehicles equiped with this technology.?

That's a straw man fallacy. They are not buying a vehicle which has their hazard lights hardwired to flash ALL the time. On the contrary, they're getting a vehicle that uses a safety feature that is ONLY engaged under certain emergency conditions (ABS/EBA is triggered, a crash is detected and/or the airbags/SRS pretensioners are deployed, etc.).... which pretty much falls into the category of situations when these hazard flashers SHOULD operate.

[sparc179]

Regulation ? Is this the one thats verbatimly copied from another country? The truth is the countries where that regulation was copied from have very strict laws and enforcement on the road worthiness of vehicles from the lights to the tint. Can you say the same exist in the Philippines? Lets start with your tint.

Seriously, that's your argument? Just because the regulation isn't enforced you shouldn't follow it anymore?

You're worse than the those who don't know what the rules are then, because you already know it's not a safe thing to do and yet you still do it.

And, if I may, the emergency brake system you are using to try and make your point, it means the vehicle has stopped already because of the emergency and is no longer moving. See the difference? Hazard (Not Hazzard, BTW) lights are good to use if the car is already stationary during an emergency situation, accident, has broken down, etc.

Hazard Lights + Stopped Vehicle = Good. It's just logical.

[dr. d]

emergency blinking brake lights.
the pros and cons are discussed by vince ****elos in autoindustriya.com.
it's in google.

on the use of hazard lights with the vehicle moving,
majority of published automotive literature clearly puts someone on the wrong side of automotive history.

OT.
kawawa naman si vince.
hindi pinapayagan ng computerized board of censors ma-spell correctly dito ang pangalan niya.

[glenn_duke]

Seriously, that's your argument? Just because the regulation isn't enforced you shouldn't follow it anymore?

You're worse than the those who don't know what the rules are then, because you already know it's not a safe thing to do and yet you still do it.

And, if I may, the emergency brake system you are using to try and make your point, it means the vehicle has stopped already because of the emergency and is no longer moving. See the difference? Hazard (Not Hazzard, BTW) lights are good to use if the car is already stationary during an emergency situation, accident, has broken down, etc.

Hazard Lights + Stopped Vehicle = Good. It's just logical.

Probably the regulatikn is flawed for philippine condition. Countries enforcing that regulations have other regulations that are more strictly enforced to make the non use of hazzard lights feasible. In the US , some states have anti hazzard law while other states allow it. Countries in South America have liberal application of hazzard lights, from pedestrian crossing to parking on the curb.

Cars in emergency braking are not going to stop in 1 second it will be in motion for several seconds depending on a lot of conditions from speed, tire, road condition, brake condition. ABS was invented to prevent brake lock so you can steer during this window. The hazzard lights in that emergency braking will trigger as soon as the system sence the force on the brake.

Review the video again and see that car is in motion while the hazzard light is flashing. You can even count the seconds before the car in the animation completely stops although the stopping distance is quite conservative from reality.

In strict sense in the use of hazzard lights in the philippines Vehicle in stopped position from emergency braking is not an exemption in the use of hazzard lights , not unless the vehicle is stopped due to collision.

[glenn_duke]

On #2, I think that's stretching it. For one, the emergency brake flashes are temporary. It disables itself, presumably, when you let your foot off the brake pedal. 2nd, when you are doing obstruction-avoidance while hard-braking, I don't think that engaging the turn signal would be the first thing on your mind. In that regard, I think that flashing the hazard lights or the brake lights should provide sufficient warning to the vehicle behind to slow down or approach with caution.



That's a straw man fallacy. They are not buying a vehicle which has their hazard lights hardwired to flash ALL the time. On the contrary, they're getting a vehicle that uses a safety feature that is ONLY engaged under certain emergency conditions (ABS/EBA is triggered, a crash is detected and/or the airbags/SRS pretensioners are deployed, etc.).... which pretty much falls into the category of situations when these hazard flashers SHOULD operate.

The time gap from pressing that brake to a complete stop is not going to be instantaneous.
That hazzard light will be flashing for considerable time.

You can safely flip the turn signal with one finger unlike the hazzard light which will require your right hand off the steering wheel to reach the hazzard button.

Im not only talking whats available Im also talking future innovations thats going to be contrary to someones beliefs.

[dr. d]

i have been driving for decades.
i have been in more potential fender-benders than i remember, that were linked to a sea of flashing hazard lights.
most of them involved a sense of disorientation and impending bump-car syndrome, at having so many moving cars with flashing hazard lights, in front of me.
whereas, it was rampant in many years past... thankfully, the practice has diminished.
whereas, before, it was a sea of blinkers, nowadays it is a more manageable one or two only...
... probably thanks to tsikot.com and other portals of friendly education.

one has to experience it, to understand it. my suspicion is, some folks have yet to experience it.
one or two blinking cars, is manageable; just stay away from them. i think, some post-ers here are refering to only one or two blinkers at a time, which, i believe, is totally different from...
a sea of blinkers from like-minded drivers, that causes one to want to step on the brakes and stop...

[enzo6k]

maybe, that technology of triggering hazard lights flash during emergency braking is to distinguish a normal braking from sudden braking caused by errmm a hazard on its path.

it will not activate for heavy rains or thick fog because the car behind already knows that, no need to warn them.

[oj88]

The time gap from pressing that brake to a complete stop is not going to be instantaneous.
That hazzard light will be flashing for considerable time.

Stopping time for most light to light-medium vehicles from 100kph to 0 is around 5 or 6 seconds, give or take, depending on road conditions. The flashers would only stay for that long or maybe until you've let go of the brake pedal. But let's just say 10 seconds total. That's not considerable, IMO.

If you stomp on the brakes under emergency conditions, it won't take long to slow down to a more manageable speed (enough to release the brakes) or even come to a halt.

You can safely flip the turn signal with one finger unlike the hazzard light which will require your entire right hand to reach the hazzard button.

I agree on the 2nd one..... that's the main reason it's being integrated into the vehicle safety features so it's one less thing for drivers to worry about. However, the first one is highly debatable. The operative word is "emergency". The driver's first instinct is to stop the vehicle and/or swerve to avoid an obstacle or collision. Flipping on the turn signal stalk is typically not up there on the top list of things to do in an emergency.