Ford's POWERSHIFT Question

**robin_micmac** · September 7th, 2011 01:53 AM

Well the technical seminar is not a workshop seminar. its more on the technologies and strategies for the future of Getrag Ford Transmissions. Theoretically it shouldnt be very difficult to fix them as it is mechanically less complicated than a hydraulic auto gearbox. The only bit that is complicated is the clutch pack itself. A DCT is basically a manual transmission with Actuators and sensors to do the part of the driver. Whats complicated here is the calibration of the ECU which of course isnt a serviceable part. Its factory programmed so it shouldnt be a problem for service people.

The thing is that the service parts are not that comprehensive and most of the time they end up to be assembly parts ie. the whole gearbox. And that is the reason why Getrag Ford Transmission is now offering the clutch as a service part in order to avoid replacing the whole gearbox everytime there is a problem. Another thing here is the need for special tools needed to carry out the job.

But my concern here is about the adaptability of the Dual Clutch Transmission to heavy traffic. Im not sure if its really durable enough for everyday heavy traffic use like in Manila.

**Tj_abs** · September 7th, 2011 11:09 AM

Thanks for the input boss robin. Very informative. Actually i saw a website regarding DCT recalls and gearbox problems of the fiesta same as you mention po(defective gearbox) Im not sure if the transmission gearbox is made in mexico (fiesta/focus). Napag isip tuloy ako. I was torn to purchase ( gift for my wife) between fiesta DCT 6speed and suzuki swift 4speed unless ford will fix the problem in due time. Peace=)

**niky** · September 7th, 2011 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by robin_micmac

I just saw this thread about Powershift Gearbox now. I beg to disagree that you dont need to change the clutch on the Ford Dual Clutch Transmission. I've attended a seminar conducted by Getrag Ford transmissions at the Dunton Technical Centre in Es*** sometime last year and the Head Engineer of the project talked about the life of these clutches. Yes they intended it to be fit for service life i.e 100,000 miles or 10 years but I think they must have overlooked something on their design verification process and maybe encountered some problems in the field. They are now coming up with what they call as a ' clutch kit' which is basically the clutch assembly of the Dual Clutch Transmission system which will be available as a service part available from Ford in case you will need to replace your clutch pack.

Nothing against the Focus here or Ford in general but I think that the Dual Clutch transmission design is still in its early development stages. I have to say they are brilliant gearboxes, slick gearchanges and gives excellent fuel economy but they dont like driving on heavy traffic which coincidentally is what we have in Manila everyday.

You see, these Dual Clutch gearboxes are basically manual transmissions with automated clutch hence the Head Engineer of Getrag Ford Transmissions rather call it an 'Automatic Manual Transmission'. When you start crawling which is when the transmission engages first gear and fully engages the clutch, the speed is sometimes a bit to fast for the traffic and what you do is step on the brakes to slow it down. This is the bit that the DCT gearbox doesnt like because you allow the clutch to slip and at the same time you ask for it to transmit torque..doing this long enough will leave you with a worn out clutch pretty soon.

I have first hand experience of this as our family owns 2 Ford Focus TDCi Sport Powershift. One of them had a major issue in the transmission last year as it missed its shifting and even got stuck in one gear. You have to turn off the engine and restart it to make it shift again. Ford replaced the entire transmission under warranty. Now the other car had transmission is showing 'transmission malfunction' and the car is having 'clutch drag' when you drive it in traffic. It is scheduled to be inspected by the Ford Dealer next week. However, the car that had a gearbox change last year, had another 'transmission malfunction' and refused to select any gear and the car didnt moved. We had to restart the engine and then it worked again but the error message is still there. Now its got 'Clutch drag' as well.

Its fair to say that it maybe a one off when the tranny failed on the other car but now both cars are having problems. These cars were purchased last Feb 2009. So I guess I can say that there is something wrong with the gearbox design? Also, I have a colleague based in the UK who has a 2010 VW Golf with DSG Gearbox who also had a gearbox change under warranty. So it isnt just a Ford Issue after all. It seems like Dual Clutch Transmission or Dual Sequential Gearbox Technology isnt really perfected yet.

Thanks for the info. ;)

Good thing if Ford starts offering clutch packs for the Fiesta. That was a major sticking point with the Honda Jazz/City CVTs... when those vehicles, whose only maintenance was supposed to be fluid changes, started eating up clutch packs, too.

Clutch packs are wear items on most automatics... the only difference with manual clutches being that they tend not to wear out quickly unless they're abused (brake-stall drag launches, heavy modification, hard driving). This is one reason why some of us don't like buying old ATs... once they start slipping, local dealerships and shops don't carry clutch pack replacements, and you'll have to take the whole thing apart and have the torque converter overhauled.

The clutch pack issues on the Focus puzzling... because the Focus's wet clutch should have less strain than a dry one... but perhaps the huge off-idle torque of the engine is a problem in stop-and-go traffic. I did notice that the newer test units seem to be programmed to accelerate softer from a stop. Perhaps it would be wise in the future to shift into neutral when braking to a stop. The point at which the clutch disengages from the transmission when braking is a bit too low (in road speed) for my taste. Perhaps shifting into neutral manually will save on wear-and-tear for that part.

If Ford releases the clutch packs and parts plus labor for the change are under 15k, then perhaps it's not such a big deal... at over 20k, people will likely start to complain. At least, though, they won't be as hard off as those owners who experienced CVT failures outside warranty and had to fork over 150k plus for a new tranny!

Any word if they will release a clutch pack set for the TDCi also? Not that we're affected, since my dad's unit is MT (which does have its own unique issue... the flywheel... but I have a source for replacements)... but it'd be nice to know. so I can relay word to the Ford Club.

**vivafoxpro** · September 8th, 2011 01:46 AM

My own take on this is that a major reason for a manual transmission controlled by a computer is it has the ability to "get smarter" as computer technology continues on its geometric progression. Same mechanical parts with an upgraded brain.

We already have GPS and proximity sensors. It won't be long before our daily rides learn to anticipate a full stop versus a slow down for a hump on the road.

When it comes to this, that DCT would attain its full potential without needing a thing changed.

On a side note, Google's driverless car got into an accident when it was driven manually by a man

**tidus1203** · September 8th, 2011 10:42 AM

My opinion is a computer makes a better job of preserving the clutch than a human... Although a computer could never match the "diskarte" of a human... They can get close but not match it...

But for me as long as may traffic, I will let the computer do the shifting!

**Tj_abs** · September 8th, 2011 12:04 PM

Boss tidus/nicky, i need your advice. I back thread po regarding sa fiesta. My concern po is the fuel consumption,reliabilty( gearbox issue) and cost of maintainance. I was torn between 1.4 swift matic and fiesta 1.6 powershift hatch. Is it worthy to buy fiesta rather than swift( limited dealership)? Ford this month is offering 20-30k discount on fiesta while no discount on suzuki swift. Sorry medyo OT.. Thanks.. Peace=)

**tidus1203** · September 8th, 2011 12:42 PM

Sa fuel economy I get 10-11km/L in the city, no idea with the Swift. In fact la pa akong nakikitang Swift sa daanan...

As for the tranny's durability only time will tell. I had my fiesta for almost a year now ok pa sya pero seympre relatively speaking bago pa rin kotse ko. No one can say 5-8 years from now. I haven't paid any PMS costs yet since libre ang 1000km and 10,000km ng Ford.

**niky** · September 8th, 2011 01:19 PM

No idea yet. The Swift's drivetrain is partially carried-over from the old car, but it also has new components... the automatic, most noticeably, now has tighter gearing, akin to the Mazda2.

The Swift should get better fuel economy in the city. Lighter car, tighter gearing. But on the highway, the extra gears of the Fiesta bring it up to parity.

**robin_micmac** · September 8th, 2011 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by niky

Thanks for the info. ;)

Any word if they will release a clutch pack set for the TDCi also? Not that we're affected, since my dad's unit is MT (which does have its own unique issue... the flywheel... but I have a source for replacements)... but it'd be nice to know. so I can relay word to the Ford Club.

I will have to ask my friend who is based at Dunton if this service part has already been released.
I'll let you know as soon as he gets back to me.

**robin_micmac** · September 8th, 2011 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by niky

Thanks for the info. ;)

Perhaps it would be wise in the future to shift into neutral when braking to a stop. The point at which the clutch disengages from the transmission when braking is a bit too low (in road speed) for my taste. Perhaps shifting into neutral manually will save on wear-and-tear for that part.

.

this will definitely help prolong the life of the clutches but unfortunately we cant expect every TDCI user to be doing this.