Auto-LPG Conversion Thread

[dencio1976]

Dencio, mahal pala yun! Just called up my friend -- its 1,000 per liter daw, altho they are out of stock at the moment waiting for the Oberon additive. Sorry, binibigyan lang nya ako every now and then. They mix them by the drum and the "butal" is collected, yun ang binibigay nya sa akin! He says the brand new cabs have been using it for 2 years na at marami naman day bumibili. Sold by Caliber Trading in San Juan, a guy named Danny Aquino. FYI nalang!

the real value of the "feedback" system is that the A/F ratio can be adjusted two or three times a second by the "ECU" which takes its readings from the O2 sensor, the ignition timing from the distributor and the vacuum reading from the manifold (below the throttle plate) and determines the correct mixture from a stoichometric map or graph in the flash memory of the ECU. I believe all the Italian's have them but I havent been able to get any direct info from Macro!

cheers!

btw, what's the stoichometric rate for LPG? would anyone happen to know? for gasoline it's 14:1 then for diesel i think it's up to 25:1

[ghosthunter]

btw, what's the stoichometric rate for LPG? would anyone happen to know? for gasoline it's 14:1 then for diesel i think it's up to 25:1

http://www.naftc.wvu.edu/technical/i...datatable.html

15.7 : 1 for LPG

[ssalonga]

http://www.naftc.wvu.edu/technical/i...datatable.html

15.7 : 1 for LPG

Attn: Dencio, Ghosthunter, etc.....

Hey guys! FYI -- I think I found a closed-loop system for petrol carbs! i think its not for the LPG but for the gasoline carbs in a bi-fuel application! Curious no?

Check it out:

http://www.prins-lpg.com/en/products/clc/index.html

!!! KIA Pride pa yung sample install nya!!!

steve

[dencio1976]

Attn: Dencio, Ghosthunter, etc.....

Hey guys! FYI -- I think I found a closed-loop system for petrol carbs! i think its not for the LPG but for the gasoline carbs in a bi-fuel application! Curious no?

Check it out:

http://www.prins-lpg.com/en/products/clc/index.html

!!! KIA Pride pa yung sample install nya!!!

steve

tama din about the O2 sensors sa exhaust manifold. i've an idea on how to control the airflow with input from the ecu. im rather curious of how it'd be able to control the fuel flow thou in a carb with a mechanical adjuster. but i think the part in the top middle in the picture will be placed (or replace the part) between the carb and the intake manifold (called the base i think) controlling the fuel flow indirectly. im not too sure thou.

it's a good find ssalonga! any detailed pictures of installation thou?

[smdelfin]

Yup, thats the one in the yellow containers. I never saw the need to get a synthetic oil or blend. I just stuck with my regular tune up & and change oil schedule. For my personal use, I do not find a need to upgrade my motor oil.

What about spark plugs? Are you using the regular ones? Or ur now using platinum ones? Do they make a difference? Thanks!

[ssalonga]

Dencio! I think I figured it out. You're right, the plate is inserted below the carb's throttle plate and the manifold. The plate seems to introduce outside air into the A/F mixture after the carb through a port that allows atmospheric air to be sucked by the vacuum in the manifold. That in effect leans out the mixture from your fuel jet settings!

Now, the stepper motor operates an air valve that controls the amount of "manifold leak" introduced to the A/F mixture from the carb. It is activated by electric pulses from the O2 sensor (I think +/-8V) so that the opening of the valve to and from atmosphere to depressed vacuum is controlled in maybe 16 increments.

Probably the carb mixture is initially set rich, and the O2 sensor then begins to lean out the mixture in increments by introducing pure air into the mix below the throttle plate. The stepper valve essentially introduces an "leaning out" of the mix until stoich is reached, then backs off when throttle is further depressed or is shut down.

The question to ask is: can I use this to lean out my autogas mix if I could introduce the gas mix in rich condition and have the stepper lean out the mix until I achieved stoich? Same principle right?

Except perhaps, for the fact that petrol stoich is different from gas stoich! Therefore, is it possible to re-map the ECU to work on a different stoich value? If it could, this device would be a useful (and readily available) solution to closing the feedback loop, increasing economy, output power, and cleaning up the tailpipe of autogas cars!

What do you think?

steve

[ghosthunter]

What about spark plugs? Are you using the regular ones? Or ur now using platinum ones? Do they make a difference? Thanks!

I've been using regular sparkplugs since I have been using LPG. Never used platinum.

[Mojo]

Bros

Would it make sense or even possible to put a LPG conversion kit a a Kia pride 1.1liter CD5? or would it make sense at all?


I heard that some taxis run dual fuel system, LPG and petrol. If their LPG tank is empty they can shift to regular fuel by a flick of a finger. I heard you only have to turn their engine off, push a button on a installed box on their dash, then they can feed and run on regular petrol.

Is t his true?

[smdelfin]

I've been using regular sparkplugs since I have been using LPG. Never used platinum.

I just assumed that since better oil can have an effect, as you have discussed, maybe better sparkplugs can have, too.

[smdelfin]

Bros

Would it make sense or even possible to put a LPG conversion kit a a Kia pride 1.1liter CD5? or would it make sense at all?


I heard that some taxis run dual fuel system, LPG and petrol. If their LPG tank is empty they can shift to regular fuel by a flick of a finger. I heard you only have to turn their engine off, push a button on a installed box on their dash, then they can feed and run on regular petrol.

Is t his true?

This is always true. Installing an LPG kit means making ur car dual fuel.

[dencio1976]

Dencio! I think I figured it out. You're right, the plate is inserted below the carb's throttle plate and the manifold. The plate seems to introduce outside air into the A/F mixture after the carb through a port that allows atmospheric air to be sucked by the vacuum in the manifold. That in effect leans out the mixture from your fuel jet settings!

Now, the stepper motor operates an air valve that controls the amount of "manifold leak" introduced to the A/F mixture from the carb. It is activated by electric pulses from the O2 sensor (I think +/-8V) so that the opening of the valve to and from atmosphere to depressed vacuum is controlled in maybe 16 increments.

Probably the carb mixture is initially set rich, and the O2 sensor then begins to lean out the mixture in increments by introducing pure air into the mix below the throttle plate. The stepper valve essentially introduces an "leaning out" of the mix until stoich is reached, then backs off when throttle is further depressed or is shut down.

The question to ask is: can I use this to lean out my autogas mix if I could introduce the gas mix in rich condition and have the stepper lean out the mix until I achieved stoich? Same principle right? steve

yup i had this in mind. only im curious how the O2 sensors really work. got any finds on what O2 sensors do in your exhaust manifold?

Except perhaps, for the fact that petrol stoich is different from gas stoich! Therefore, is it possible to re-map the ECU to work on a different stoich value? If it could, this device would be a useful (and readily available) solution to closing the feedback loop, increasing economy, output power, and cleaning up the tailpipe of autogas cars!

What do you think?

steve

an alternative: with the stock ecu at gasoline stoich value, (1 less than the value for LPG), it would be rich a/f. mods would be necessary. a technology that one(like me) cannot easily reach(for DIY). it'd be something if you could reprog the ECU.

i just came up with the fuel variation idea for LPG. since your LPG kit comes with solenoids, opening can be varied with however a constant air opening. (a much simpler setup i think). with the O2 sensor at the exhaust manifold, a gauge of somesort (a simpler one like a/f gauge for example)would act as the trigger input for the solenoid variation opening. voila.. instant closed loop! (if only it was that simple)

oh and i would also consider water temp variation as well. it's impt for the temp stabilization of the lpg. too hot meant not good for intake. cool meant something in equivalent for cold air intake. (just a little more and i think we've come up with a great idea)

[dencio1976]

Bros

Would it make sense or even possible to put a LPG conversion kit a a Kia pride 1.1liter CD5? or would it make sense at all?

why not. having an LPG kit on your kia pride CD5 would cut you less on your fuel cost even with kia's already economical fuel consumption.

I heard that some taxis run dual fuel system, LPG and petrol. If their LPG tank is empty they can shift to regular fuel by a flick of a finger. I heard you only have to turn their engine off, push a button on a installed box on their dash, then they can feed and run on regular petrol.

Is t his true?

that's perfectly right... some. in our case. we run our taxis purely on LPGs. we've isolated the fuel lines from going in to the carb for 2 reasons i could think of:

1. a regular taxi driver goes about maximum of 400-450kms in 24hours(ive not heard of any taxi driver that would go past 450) meaning he cant bottomout a full tank of lpg. no need for gas(reason why we put LPG)

2. since drivers dont use gasoline anymore, foul smell of unused gasoline from over months old came from leaks as the fuel pump is consistently pumped by the cams and just returned. problem is the return diameter is smaller in the fuel pump which in most cases we had, fuel pump was the one to leak gasoline.

but then any LPG kit i know has a switch button to change from gas to lpg n back. then again there are steps for a carbed engine that is. 1. when switching from gas to LPG, you'd have to drain the gasoline in the carb. why? so that it doesnt mix with the LPG as it will give you bad idle and poor running engine(that is til the gasoline is all burned up). 2. since an external air control(for Macro LPG kit's case only) is present, you'd also have to take it off when switching back to gas from LPG.

[Mojo]

thx

actually i dont have a cd5, im planning to get one. since its a 4 cyclinder econo car. its very feasible to add a lpg kit to it.

[smdelfin]

... an external air control(for Macro LPG kit's case only) is present ...

Is this another reason why we should get Macro's instead of NAIADSS'? Thanks!

[dencio1976]

Is this another reason why we should get Macro's instead of NAIADSS'? Thanks!

maybe naiadss has the same kit. still your choice.

ive heard of a new tank fit in the trunk. it supposedly smaller and is fitted to where your spare tire lies. nice! hmm! i think it's called "donut" type tank. not too sure but my lil bro saw it sometime ago. failed to mention it to me.

[afg598]

ive heard of a new tank fit in the trunk. it supposedly smaller and is fitted to where your spare tire lies. nice! hmm! i think it's called "donut" type tank. not too sure but my lil bro saw it sometime ago. failed to mention it to me.[/quote]

what's the capacity of a dougnut tank? where will you put your spare now?

[ssalonga]

Gud AM!

The latest technology for Autogas is liquid fuel injection -- which probably means the compressed LPG (at tank pressure) is brought directly to the fuel injector block and squirted directly to the manifold! No loss of power and economy compared to gasoline.


[SIZE=4]Found:[/SIZE] some really good links for general information about automotive Propane (LPG autogas) specifically the performance comparison with gasoline and diesel.

Propane Education and Research Council research and development activities: http://www.propanecouncil.org/rd/engine_fuel.html

•National Propane Gas Association descriptions of tax credits for vehicle conversion to propane and tax credits on fuel purchase: http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1186

•The Department of Energy propane facts website: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/propane/index.html

•Alternative Fuels Data Center website: http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/afv/prop_vehicles.html

[userfriendly]

medyo OT but still related. Saw in Enterprenure magazine na Autogas Manila is now franchising. Franchise fee is 1M and total cash out will be around 5 to 10M depending on the size of the lot. No royalty fee but I assume you need to buy lpg and kits from them. That's all I remember can't recall tel no or contact details.

[ghosthunter]

To those already using Auto-LPG:

Any updates on your ride's condition, repairs, maintenance done, etc?

--------------

my update:

My longest trip on one tank of LPG was during the last Holy Week holidays. I traveled 450km before I went for a fill up. The LPG level indicator was beeping but I still had LPG by the time I fueled up.

I just need to clean my engine's cone filter more often than before. Typical symptom of a dirty air filter is increased lower fuel millage and less engine performance (like slower acceleration and lower top speed).

I also had my LPG evaporator drained... not much stuff came out, kinda underwhelming if you ask me. It was done in less than five minutes at NAIADSS.

[topgun]

hi ghost hunter, just use your gasoline also para hindi mag stuck up ang fuel pump mo ako i made the mistake of using LPG all the time medyo na stuck up sya so walang fuel coming out of thefuel pump so i have to replace it . pina tignan ko na kanina sa NAIADSS.