The truth about automotive reviews,...

[ghosthunter]

Jeremy Clarkson is another thing altogether.

His advantage is BBC's Top Gear UK show is not funded by sponsors nor advertisers.

[scharnhorst]

Top Gear UK is fun because of this guy.

though they're absolutely biased towards british-made cars...

it's refreshing to hear and read their ridiculously negative reviews

[tidus1203]

And what makes it good is the chemistry of the 3 presenters are perfect... You have the speed at all cost Clarkson, the more sensible May, and the balance of the two which is Hammond...

[scharnhorst]

I was surprised when I saw autoindustriya's review for the innova SR...

sure, the mags look great but, really... a perfect score for a facelifted, body-kitted innova?

erm. wow?

OT: I got one of clarkson's books a couple of weeks ago... hehe. laughtrip talaga

[tidus1203]

Meron din syang mga DVD release... Nakakatawa yung Heaven and Hell...

[ghosthunter]

Meron din syang mga DVD release... Nakakatawa yung Heaven and Hell...

You can download that from the ******* channel

[scharnhorst]

Meron din syang mga DVD release... Nakakatawa yung Heaven and Hell...

the latest is Duel!

used to have his DVD from 2007 and 2008

hehe. who else would have the gall to bash super and hypercars?

[ghosthunter]

hehe. who else would have the gall to bash super and hypercars?

I would! If they would let me drive them before I give my two cents on each of them.

[Type 100]

Actually real world technical testing are being done with the locally available cars. A GPS enable V-BOX is used for this.

Unfortunately the results aren't published. The numbers are only used for the Car Of The Year (COTY) awards done every year.

All that data not being published...are motoring journalists that intent on keeping people ignorant about how well cars really perform? And I thought they were out there to educate.

[ghosthunter]

All that data not being published...are motoring journalists that intent on keeping people ignorant about how well cars really perform? And I thought they were out there to educate.

The numbers are meant to judge the cars on their technical aspects (acceleration, braking, etc)

Well, C! does it's own testing and does publish the test results in their magazine along with the prices and specs.

[scharnhorst]

*ghosthunter: I'd probably be all smiles even if they let me drive a lousy supercar. haha


I remember this one time at the 2010 MIAS...

Me and my friends couldn't get in since one of the girls was wearing shorts and slippers... apparently may dress code daw sa WTC.

A couple of minutes later, a certain writer for Top Gear Philippines shows up with his girlfriend, and she's wearing shorts and slippers too. They're denied entry at first...

but soon after the dress code was lifted.

hehe. perks.

[ghosthunter]

*ghosthunter: I'd probably be all smiles even if they let me drive a lousy supercar. haha.

That I can personality guarantee. Having had the opportunity in the last few years to drive expensive cars like the Jaguar XJR, Jaguar XF, Subaru Impresa & Legacy GT, Merc E/C/S-Class, BMW 1/3/5/6/7/X-series can bring miles of smiles to any gearhead anyday.

[niky]

And what makes it good is the chemistry of the 3 presenters are perfect... You have the speed at all cost Clarkson, the more sensible May, and the balance of the two which is Hammond...

That's the sensible and slow May, the balls-to-the-walls lunacy of Hammond, and the incredible hair and ham-fisted driving of Clarkson (who's less concerned with speed than he is about powerslides... )

sure, the mags look great but, really... a perfect score for a facelifted, body-kitted innova?

http://bigbigcar.com/boards/default.aspx?g=posts&t=3534

Handling is pretty good for a tall van. The Innova has always felt better sorted than other AUVs, its low center of gravity and long wheelbase granting it exceptional stability (I think it drives better than the Fortuner). But this comes with a price... the Innova’s low nose bottoms out on steep driveways and ground clearance is just average.

At least our tester rode much softer than older Innovas I’ve driven. Whether this is due to the low-profile 225-55R15 Yokohama S306 tires (other Innovas run 205-60 Yokohama A-Specs) or due to suspension retuning on the new model, I don’t know... but it’s nice. While your heart won’t be racing when going up to Baguio, you’ll be secure in the knowledge that the Innova won’t set a foot wrong on the way, and the excellent view and comfortable ride keep things quiet and relaxed.

It's better than previous Innovas... and compared to other AUVs, definitely way up there.

Compared to absolutely everything else on the market... no... not really... but then, they're probably judging the car based on its market segment.

All that data not being published...are motoring journalists that intent on keeping people ignorant about how well cars really perform? And I thought they were out there to educate.

It's for testing purposes only, and not really relevant to everyday motorists. PCOTY only does 0-60 km/h. That's because we don't have enough space at the chosen venue for more (maybe this year, with the new Clark Speedway open, we will). Actually... if we can do 0-100 there, then we can have individual publications refer this, much as Canadian publications refer to testing data from their own COTY.

Only two pubs in the Philippines do 0-100. C! and us. C! insists on testing every car in the same way. AC on, two passengers and a 2000 rpm launch. Which may be realistic from a daily driving point of view, but gives different results to everyone else.

I think a 60-100 time is more useful for people, as while not everyone will be drag-racing, most people will want to know how well a car overtakes. But no one else does 60-100. The closest are Car and Driver's 30-50 and 50-70... but this is also very arbitrary... as they do it in one gear only. If you've got an automatic, it's almost impossible to keep a car from downshifting to overtake.

[scharnhorst]

*niky: yep, I read your review. fan of BBC, btw

point taken, there's really not much in terms of competition in its segment - the AUVs are no match, even to the pre-facelift model... the fuzion without the diesel isn't as practical...

I guess only the carens can stand toe to toe with the innova

the thing that buggered me was the perfect score rating was based essentially on the "kit", rather than the improvements

and not a word was said about flaws.

[niky]

*niky: yep, I read your review. fan of BBC, btw

point taken, there's really not much in terms of competition in its segment - the AUVs are no match, even to the pre-facelift model... the fuzion without the diesel isn't as practical...

I guess only the carens can stand toe to toe with the innova

the thing that buggered me was the perfect score rating was based essentially on the "kit", rather than the improvements

and not a word was said about flaws.

Highly dependent on the writer. And depends on where they drive it. Apparently, Inigo used it mostly for family use inside the city.

Some of the other reviews are more critical.

I guess I'm lucky, as far as reviewers go. I live right beside Tagaytay and Greenfiled, and our patch of SLEX is crap. I've got a wide range of testing environments outside my doorstep.

[Type 100]

It's for testing purposes only, and not really relevant to everyday motorists. PCOTY only does 0-60 km/h. That's because we don't have enough space at the chosen venue for more (maybe this year, with the new Clark Speedway open, we will). Actually... if we can do 0-100 there, then we can have individual publications refer this, much as Canadian publications refer to testing data from their own COTY.

Only two pubs in the Philippines do 0-100. C! and us. C! insists on testing every car in the same way. AC on, two passengers and a 2000 rpm launch. Which may be realistic from a daily driving point of view, but gives different results to everyone else.

I think a 60-100 time is more useful for people, as while not everyone will be drag-racing, most people will want to know how well a car overtakes. But no one else does 60-100. The closest are Car and Driver's 30-50 and 50-70... but this is also very arbitrary... as they do it in one gear only. If you've got an automatic, it's almost impossible to keep a car from downshifting to overtake.

Acceleration is only 1/3 of the instrumented testing pie IMHO, although it's one we've talked about most in length in the form of speed X to speed Y in given gears.

Braking data is far more important. A constant start speed (say 100 km/h) and measurements of time and distance to a complete stop are a good foundation. Really serious brake-testers could even steal a page out of Best Motoring's "Panic Braking" section by Naoki Hattori - it tests braking while cornering, and the resultant behavior of the car (oversteer or understeer).

This area is where local motoring journalists are sorely lacking...personally I would rather drive a slow car that has phenomenal brakes over a rocket on wheels with bad braking behavior. Yes, yes, braking isn't ***y but it has the greatest capability of saving people's speed-addicted butts.

Handling tests via slalom and lateral-acceleration on a skidpad...those can wait. Ferman Lao of Top Gear Phils said it correctly; most people never go past 40% of their cars' ultimate handling limits - they're too scared to try, it's illegal, insurance doesn't cover trackdays, etc etc - insert excuse here.

The real upside to instrumented testing results being published in motoring publications is this: Objectively there's a basis for comparison. Which car accelerates the best from 60-100 in third gear? Which car brakes best? I read so many comparisons in Top Gear that I have to question because I gotta ask "What's your basis for saying so?" Gut feel and a butt dyno aren't good enough.

Or are carmakers so afraid of seeing their cars being trumped by their competitors? Without objective data we'll never know.

If car A gets beaten in certain performance criteria then it's the burden of the carmaker to improve on it. Continuous improvement - that's the name of the game.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

[niky]

Acceleration is only 1/3 of the instrumented testing pie IMHO, although it's one we've talked about most in length in the form of speed X to speed Y in given gears.

Braking data is far more important. A constant start speed (say 100 km/h) and measurements of time and distance to a complete stop are a good foundation. Really serious brake-testers could even steal a page out of Best Motoring's "Panic Braking" section by Naoki Hattori - it tests braking while cornering, and the resultant behavior of the car (oversteer or understeer).

Unfortunately, braking hard into a lane change is one of the most stressful (for the car), dangerous and tricky tests to perform. How can you be sure that the surface has the same coefficient of grip each time? What about tire condition? Weather? Brake pad bed-in and brake condition? Slightly less grip on one testing day or slightly more moisture on the road can cause a car that would normall fail (oversteer) to pass (under-neutral steer).

You need a race track, an assurance of fresh everything for each car (and stock wheels... though different tires don't change the over-under balance... just the speed and manner in which break-away occurs) and a tester who won't introduce new variables into each test by braking at different points or turning the wheel slightly more or slightly less.

This last part makes the whole test fraught with problems. Different rack ratios and variable assist / ratio steering play merry hell with this test.

While I agree how a car corners under braking is very important from a safety standpoint, It's not something that is easy to test for accurately. I'd rather see locals do straight braking. Though this is also fraught with many variables, it's more repeatable and easily testable.

Leave the lane-change stuff to Consumer Reports... guys with the time, money and equipment to perform these tests on their private racetracks.

This area is where local motoring journalists are sorely lacking...personally I would rather drive a slow car that has phenomenal brakes over a rocket on wheels with bad braking behavior. Yes, yes, braking isn't ***y but it has the greatest capability of saving people's speed-addicted butts.

Some of us do comment on braking, but only when it's exceptionally good or bad. The problem is, without a racetrack to test on, testing full-bore braking is often dangerous. I do recall that one or two local writers actually do test this... but said drivers also hook tires over the shoulder Takumi-style on mountain passes :hysterical: Don't recall if they still do (err... the Takumi thing... not the brakes)

Handling tests via slalom and lateral-acceleration on a skidpad...those can wait. Ferman Lao of Top Gear Phils said it correctly; most people never go past 40% of their cars' ultimate handling limits - they're too scared to try, it's illegal, insurance doesn't cover trackdays, etc etc - insert excuse here.

Yup. but a slalom can serve as your emergency lane change test. At what speed can the car still safely perform a lane-change?

The real upside to instrumented testing results being published in motoring publications is this: Objectively there's a basis for comparison. Which car accelerates the best from 60-100 in third gear? Which car brakes best? I read so many comparisons in Top Gear that I have to question because I gotta ask "What's your basis for saying so?" Gut feel and a butt dyno aren't good enough.

Oh, which car handles safer and brakes better is important, but in the end, if you don't "feel the love" for a car, chances are your target audience (who think like you do... usually) won't, either.

Objectively, from a performance point of view, the new Jazz whips the floor with the Mazda2. From the driver's seat, you simply don't care. The Mazda2 feels faster, feels more lively and is more likely to raise your pulse.

Or are carmakers so afraid of seeing their cars being trumped by their competitors? Without objective data we'll never know.

If car A gets beaten in certain performance criteria then it's the burden of the carmaker to improve on it. Continuous improvement - that's the name of the game.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

"Continuous Improvement": I wish it were still so. There was a time when Honda and Toyota were all about engineering, engineering, engineering. Now, Toyota mostly makes white boxes for the masses, and even Honda admits that it's switching focus to market-based product planning instead of engineering-based.

Unfortunately, the performance criteria that manufacturers often chase are ones that make the cars worse. Bigger engine displacement. More power. Bigger bodies. Stiffer and heavier bodies. While these make the cars better in an objective sense, subjectively (from a driver's point of view), a 1996 Civic was a much better car than a 2006 Civic... and the first Jazz was much better than this new one.

But in all objective criteria, the new cars are much better. This focus on continuous improvement by fighting a numbers game for customers (biggest backseat, most powerufl engine, 0-60 mph) has given us cars that are nearly twice as heavy as before, twice as powerful, and not really any more fuel efficient.

If the war had gone differently, we'd have cars that are just the same size as they were before, just as safe, with the same-sized engine, with more performance and fuel efficiency than either the originals or what we actually get now.

[donpaolo1]

Its funny i stumbled on this thread because I have old TG and C! issues and was reading them. I was surprised that the editor was bashing another car magazine. I noticed that on Mr. Sarnes "letter from the editor" he always bashes C! (i think its C!) for flying to Italy or wherever and driving exotic cars and that the average Filipino cant afford. He says that at TG, they make it a point to showcase "everyday cars". Im no journalist, but if your magazine is geared to a certain audience, then you stick to your guns. There's no point in bashing the other camp diba? Just my 2 cents...

[ghosthunter]

Its funny i stumbled on this thread because I have old TG and C! issues and was reading them. I was surprised that the editor was bashing another car magazine. I noticed that on Mr. Sarnes "letter from the editor" he always bashes C! (i think its C!) for flying to Italy or wherever and driving exotic cars and that the average Filipino cant afford. He says that at TG, they make it a point to showcase "everyday cars". Im no journalist, but if your magazine is geared to a certain audience, then you stick to your guns. There's no point in bashing the other camp diba? Just my 2 cents...

Mr Sarne is just expressing his sour grapes because he wasn't able to fly to Italy to drive exotic cars on company expense.

[vinj]

Its funny i stumbled on this thread because I have old TG and C! issues and was reading them. I was surprised that the editor was bashing another car magazine. I noticed that on Mr. Sarnes "letter from the editor" he always bashes C! (i think its C!) for flying to Italy or wherever and driving exotic cars and that the average Filipino cant afford. He says that at TG, they make it a point to showcase "everyday cars". Im no journalist, but if your magazine is geared to a certain audience, then you stick to your guns. There's no point in bashing the other camp diba? Just my 2 cents...

So why'd he fly to some European country to attend the launch of the M3 before if thats what he feels? I saw that issue when i was getting a haircut some years back.

Mr Sarne is just expressing his sour grapes because he wasn't able to fly to Italy to drive exotic cars on company expense.