audio set-up for beginners [continued]

[awesomejann]

Ang dami palang kailangan malaman sa pag set up ng auto. Nagdadalawang isip na tuloy ako ngayon hehe

[jhnkvn]

a speaker that rolls off naturally still sounds better for me. you are cutting 43Hz-60Hz from the mid-bass. it is like compressing your high-quality audio CD to an MP3 file. even if some frequency plays softer than other frequencies, audio CD music is still sounds superior to MP3 (that's why we call it a lossy format).

You're bringing in too much cons for a few pros. I'll expound on this since I believe it's an interesting bit of info I should share. By no means should you take it that I'm confrontational as I don't mind natural roll-offs actually.. in fact, I advice a no-filter setup for a friend that was sporting Dynaudios.

For example, if you do let it roll down naturally, you do get natural bass extension. However, we can't hear or even feel anything lower than 50hz in most cases. This is because we have too little output below that because of: (1) 6.5" midbass drivers have a natural -10dB penalty when going from 50hz to 30hz. This is further supported by the phenoma that (2) our hearing is less sensitive to low frequencies -- this is called the Equal-Loudness Contour or the Fletcher-Munson Curve.

What the curve states is that as the actual loudness of a sound changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change, depending on the frequency. If you're expecting 90dB sa isang subwoofer (perception), in order for you to perceive that amount of pressure, the subwoofer is actually throwing more -- maybe around 95dB (actual). Now the problem is that you have a driver that can't really go low but you still need to move a lot of air to generate that kind of pressure.

Now, let's go to the recording. Very few recordings have any information lower than 50hz. For example,



This is taken from my archives. This is the graph of Rihanna's "Diamonds". The bass note that you should hear is at 54hz. By the time it hits 30hz, it's -18db or nearly four-times softer than the one at 54hz! And this goes on with our contemporary recordings.. like how Zedd's Clarity has its bass peak at 53hz. This is the reason why the bass sounds "punchy". 30hz isn't punchy at all.. as a standalone waveform it sounds much like a rumble.

What are recordings that have a lot of sub-bass information? Movie OSTs like Phantom of the Opera's "Overture" because of those massive organs. Well-recorded Chesky or <insert audiophile recording company> that have double bass can also dig that far down.

If we talk about the practical real-life, road noise is around 30-200hz. In other words, if you need 100dB at home where it's silent, you'll likely need something like 107dB in the car because your speaker is fighting with the noise outside. That's the reason why most people reduce their subwoofer' levels if they're listening parked and increases it during their time on the road.

There's also panel resonance. Let's say your panel starts resonating at 40hz and a note dropped down to that so it began resonating with the music. What this does is that it'll screw up your midbass response by nulling its frequencies. While the fundamental resonance is at 40hz, it'll go up with its harmonics and muddy up the range up to 180hz. What do you have? A muddy midbass.

Anyway, what are the cons?

#1 is the distortion it brings. If there's a 30hz note, your speaker will try to recreate that 30hz note nonetheless. And since there's not much decibel reduction, it'll be extending the cone from its suspension farther than necessary. This gives you a minor loss of cone control and an increase of distortion throughout the range of frequencies the driver is playing.

#2 is the additional wear and tear. Much like every other driver with a surround, you have less wear if your excursion is at 5mm versus 20mm.

#3 is mistakes can always happen. For example, your son mistakenly turned the volume knob all the way up? May mali sa installation that caused a full-range sound to be piped to your speakers? A filter helps protect you from that and it might mean the difference between shopping for a new set or not because of a dislocated suspension or fried voice coil.

My take? Play your midbass from 50hz and above. Anything lower, don't bother.

[acgq]

I need popcorn. Anyone?

[red_one]

You're bringing in too much cons for a few pros. I'll expound on this since I believe it's an interesting bit of info I should share. By no means should you take it that I'm confrontational as I don't mind natural roll-offs actually.. in fact, I advice a no-filter setup for a friend that was sporting Dynaudios.

For example, if you do let it roll down naturally, you do get natural bass extension. However, we can't hear or even feel anything lower than 50hz in most cases. This is because we have too little output below that because of: (1) 6.5" midbass drivers have a natural -10dB penalty when going from 50hz to 30hz. This is further supported by the phenoma that (2) our hearing is less sensitive to low frequencies -- this is called the Equal-Loudness Contour or the Fletcher-Munson Curve.

What the curve states is that as the actual loudness of a sound changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change, depending on the frequency. If you're expecting 90dB sa isang subwoofer (perception), in order for you to perceive that amount of pressure, the subwoofer is actually throwing more -- maybe around 95dB (actual). Now the problem is that you have a driver that can't really go low but you still need to move a lot of air to generate that kind of pressure.

Now, let's go to the recording. Very few recordings have any information lower than 50hz. For example,



This is taken from my archives. This is the graph of Rihanna's "Diamonds". The bass note that you should hear is at 54hz. By the time it hits 30hz, it's -18db or nearly four-times softer than the one at 54hz! And this goes on with our contemporary recordings.. like how Zedd's Clarity has its bass peak at 53hz. This is the reason why the bass sounds "punchy". 30hz isn't punchy at all.. as a standalone waveform it sounds much like a rumble.

What are recordings that have a lot of sub-bass information? Movie OSTs like Phantom of the Opera's "Overture" because of those massive organs. Well-recorded Chesky or <insert audiophile recording company> that have double bass can also dig that far down.

If we talk about the practical real-life, road noise is around 30-200hz. In other words, if you need 100dB at home where it's silent, you'll likely need something like 107dB in the car because your speaker is fighting with the noise outside. That's the reason why most people reduce their subwoofer' levels if they're listening parked and increases it during their time on the road.

There's also panel resonance. Let's say your panel starts resonating at 40hz and a note dropped down to that so it began resonating with the music. What this does is that it'll screw up your midbass response by nulling its frequencies. While the fundamental resonance is at 40hz, it'll go up with its harmonics and muddy up the range up to 180hz. What do you have? A muddy midbass.

Anyway, what are the cons?

#1 is the distortion it brings. If there's a 30hz note, your speaker will try to recreate that 30hz note nonetheless. And since there's not much decibel reduction, it'll be extending the cone from its suspension farther than necessary. This gives you a minor loss of cone control and an increase of distortion throughout the range of frequencies the driver is playing.

#2 is the additional wear and tear. Much like every other driver with a surround, you have less wear if your excursion is at 5mm versus 20mm.

#3 is mistakes can always happen. For example, your son mistakenly turned the volume knob all the way up? May mali sa installation that caused a full-range sound to be piped to your speakers? A filter helps protect you from that and it might mean the difference between shopping for a new set or not because of a dislocated suspension or fried voice coil.

My take? Play your midbass from 50hz and above. Anything lower, don't bother.

we're both non-confrontational let me share my thoughts on this:

#1 i have yet to hear this distortion with my speakers. but okay, let's say the speaker tries to recreate the 30Hz note (which it is not capable of), there will be too little power on that frequency and its succeeding harmonic components will have diminishing powers (from that too little power), that this distortion won't matter at all.

#2 mechanical damage will only occur to the driver if there is too much power, not too little power. if the frequency is so soft that you can't hear or feel it, then there is too little power on that frequency so how will it wear or tear your driver?

#3 hmm, i don't get this. do you mean if full volume ang knob at may mali sa installation, masisira ang mid-bass driver playing 43Hz pero if the same mid-bass driver was playing up to 60Hz only ay hindi ito masisira?

Ito lang naman ang point ko eh: If the speaker can handle 43Hz then why cut the frequency to 60Hz? Tapos wala rin naman siyang sub. In any case, let the owner try it na lang. Try AP mode and HP mode with his amp and speakers if he can hear a difference, then select what sounds better to him.

[monty_GTV]

too technical for me at nose bleed ako pero it's nice to read intellectual exchanges of thoughts and information between two knowlegeable people. keep them non-confrontational guys

[D3nb3r]

Hay, naka hinga ako dun ah. hahahaha. I thought I just sparked a wild fire. Tabi-tabi muna the big boss are talking dami tayo matutunan dito mga newbies.

[kazer]

any thoughts on the Rainbow Soundline seps 2way (Rainbow slc265.25ng) being sold on KAC ? used hehe
(Hirap mag resort to 2nd hand, I'm not sure if its better or not. )

[ninjababez]

hmm, madali lang ba access yung speakers? madali tanggalin ang door panel? abutan mo na lang ng P100 or whatever you are comfortable with. simple lang magsolder. kung malapit ka sa area ko, i will do it for free kaso wala ako sa city.

easy access lang naman bro kasi sa kia pride rear speakers labas naman yung speaker terminal. 100 siningil may ari nun shop, binigyan ko 50 yun gumawa.

Are you talking about the wires coming from HU/amp and into your speakers and not the voice coil? If so,you can solder the wires yourself sir. It’s easy. I bet the price you pay for the labor for soldering those wires is more than what you will pay to buy a soldering iron and soldering lead. If you can, try buying soldering paste also para maganda kapit and malinis yung finish ng trabaho mo.

yung garage kasi namin bro sa inupahan ko sa baba wala socket, kaya di ko ma-diy. hiya kasi ako sa may ari gamitin yun bulb socket to get electicity baka may masabi pa. tapos yun space ko is 4th floor pa hehehe

Err.. wala naman problema ang electrical tape. For one, I use them extensively sa build ko. Done properly, it allows me easy installation and checking of the drivers is a breeze.

Note: this is speaker wire to speaker terminal

pangit kasi pagkakabit nung electric tape bro. may static noise yung speaker dahil doon.

[jhnkvn]

Actually, tama lang sabi ni red. You see, in some cars, the with-filter may sound better than the no-filter. So I agree with him that the best route is to try both options and go for whatever sounds the best.

#1 Distortion on a speaker is hard to quantify. Unless you have a Kippel on hand which can measure it quantitatively. You cannot hear the distortion of bass notes lower than 80hz~. In fact, at any given time a typical subwoofer is throwing out distortion figures of 20%. That 20% is still pleasing towards our ears... but if you put that 20% THD on your midrange or tweeter, it'll sound so horrible because we're critical in that region.

However, let's say you have two systems - System A with no-filter and System B with a 63hz 24db/octave slope, by all means, you can play a louder with System B and you play it more cleanly compared to System A. Both traits are desirable to have.

#2 If you're talking about amplitude that is. On the otherhand, I worry about the frequency. If you have a midbass that plays from 43hz to 2khz, that means it's covering a lot of octaves. To recreate 43hz, it'll need to vibrate 43 times a second and it also needs to vibrate 2,000 times a second to cover 2khz.

In speaker engineering, there's no such thing as getting the best of both worlds. You either engineer your midbass to get high frequency extension or low frequency extension. In most cases, 2-way systems are geared for high frequency extension because they need to catch up to the tweeter's frequency range of 2khz upwards. That's why their cone is geared to be lightweight. If you design a lightweight cone, low extension suffers in turn. This is the primary reason why Focal-JMLab speakers have a relatively high Fs (resonant frequency) - their speaker engineering leans towards that route.

#3 Yes. Recreating that 43hz takes a lot more linear travel on the driver suspension than the 60hz. With it might be insignificant depending on volume, it might be the fine line between a still-operating speaker with a speaker with a dislocated spider or cone.

[jhnkvn]

any thoughts on the Rainbow Soundline seps 2way (Rainbow slc265.25ng) being sold on KAC ? used hehe
(Hirap mag resort to 2nd hand, I'm not sure if its better or not. )

I usually tell people to shy away from secondhand speakers unless they can correctly assess its condition.