Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[orly_andico]

ang alam ko coconut coir is already being used for under-carpet sound insulation.

I think part of the PhUV effort must be the fabrication of body panels. Nobody's gonna do it for you. So if you consider using pressed/formed bamboo fiber for body panels (instead of an army of panel beaters and GI sheeting...) then it would also behoove you to obtain a pulping machine.

[architect]

[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif]i actually just arrived from batangas around the time of my posting. i'm still up, and 45 minutes away from an appointment. and, yes, i am quite a non-sleeper (i'm too old to be sleeping 6-8 hrs a day)

You mean you haven't slept? How I wish i still have your stamina. I used to pull in 24 - 36 hours of stragiht programming easily when I was much younger. But these days, I try to be an early to bed early to rise type. Although I have to admit most of my innovative ideas/designs have usually been conceived in the early hours.

interest-wise . . . with realistic caution and a healthy dose of philosophical prudence, plus a sprinkling of faith.

True that.

i have been told of an engineer who's working plastics & abaca in albay (where else). i'll see what can learn about it . who knows if some car-crazy guy (or woman) from Tawi-Tawi has already built the ideal Filipino car prototype. geniuses usually work alone.

Hmmm. Perhaps you are from Tawi-Tawi?

[dprox]

*orly_andico
Thanks for starting this relevant topic.
Flat sheetmetal panels need to be at least Ga.16 - as these have a tendency to warp with temp and time - making the shell extra heavy. Any thinner, and bulkheads or framing will be required -- still heavy.
Then, if we rule out dies and stamps as exhorbitant technology, reinforced plastic is a real answer to the weight and cost problem. However, unless you're using carbon fiber, FRP tends to be weaker than desired, so relegated to non-critical surfaces like the hood, rear canopies, and (as in Chok's case) the grille. And if your bumpers are meant-to-be-crumpled, them too.
For Bamboo Reinforced Plastic, read on, pls.

*architect
There are two colleagues who are into bamboo R&D. "Bobby" is the authority on building laminates and Jess C on R.C. uses. In both uses, the bamboo is subjected to tempering and other special processes.

We need to ascertain exactly where the local research stands, particularly if "sheetBRP" is feasible. For it to be useful in the long haul, my gut feel is that the technology should not be too sophisticated.

A possible info source is Ronnie (PROS) - di ba he works near your place? I'm sure they have some material in their library.
Bobby moved to Pque. I can take a sidetrip there sometime this week, pay him a visit if he's in town.

Assuming no full blown R&D program is prerequired, the main concerns as far as body shell is concerned is compressive and flexural strength of "sheetBRP". Bamboo fiber has excellent tensile strength, but is not known for compressive strength. So, before we use it, let's make sure an automotive bamboo laminate shell
(1) can take the forces without deforming,
(2) can take sudden impact, and will bend but not shatter,
(3) will not be too heavy,
(4) will be more economical than glass fiber,
(5) repairability.

On top of that, there is the ecological issue. The mere use of organic fibers does not give a clear advantage to BRP over FRP, ie if the same plastic chemicals are used anyway. That's because the same plastic components would still be a source of hazardous chemicals and "VOC" (volatile organic compounds) emissions. As a precaution, here's a link to "FRP Pollution Prevention Opportunities": http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/waste/p...ad/fibrweb.pdf

*Varga,
Here's a link to the state of the art in reinforced plastics. Self-reinforced PET sounds interesting. Imagine one day shaping a car out of recycled water bottles!
http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/ar...e/product.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/59...scription.html
If you can, get a hold of the Discovery Channel VCD on "Future Cars". Available at National Bookstore.
Spyshot: What a "Tawi-Tawi" Beetle would look like. :naughty2:

[hein]

I think part of the PhUV effort must be the fabrication of body panels. Nobody's gonna do it for you. So if you consider using pressed/formed bamboo fiber for body panels (instead of an army of panel beaters and GI sheeting...) then it would also behoove you to obtain a pulping machine.

Guys, for BODY PANELS, stick to SHEETMETAL. All the other materials aforementioned will cost more and/or take too much time to fabricate. Plus quality will be dicey.

[architect]

Guys, for BODY PANELS, stick to SHEETMETAL. All the other materials aforementioned will cost more and/or take too much time to fabricate. Plus quality will be dicey.

Hi Hein,

Thanks for the input. Would appreciate it even more if you could provide ball park cost estimates (knowing the rough dimensions and design of the target PhUV), even at least for sheetmetal. That way we can have a baseline comparison for alternative materials.

Bamboo and coconut based components are both appealing as they are indigenous and natural. But of course, as you indicated, we need to consider quality, costs and time factors. While both quality and costs are easy to quantify, cost of time is relative especially in the provinces where time measurement is not so much by the clock but by events (sunrise, sunset, etc.) or landmarks (while traveling).

[orly_andico]

But sheet metal on a small scale has no repeatability.. unless you have the necessary pressing equipment, you have to resort to an army of panel-beaters. And their output won't be repeatable (or scalable).

[varga]

hi to all

In all practicality, plastics & sheetmetal remain preferred choices for large scale vehicle production. For concept vehicles, other creatively sourced & utilised materials are very much in vogue and in acceptance in 21c car design. Since, to my understanding, the prototype PhUV will be more of a concept vehicle than a production model, (thus the use of word "prototype") exploring the use and testing the durability of the likes of bamboo, abaca etc. may still come in handy. The green design option certainly won't find as much favor as during these times of certain inconvenient truths - as long as it doesn't look like an organic object on wheels (such as a design student's (Citroën) concept of tree trunks on wheels).

. . . and the "Tawi2 Beetle" doesn't look that bad either You might have stumbled on quite a fashionable idea. Miuccia Prada might just brand her name on that vehicle.

. . . sorry, I'm sure Tawi2 is superb in its own way, but I'm way too ensconced in Makati. Just make sure the PhUV will be adapted for use in Tawi2 as well.

. . . lastly, I'm happy that the discussion is flowing along certain clear lines. Kudos to the contributors.

[eyshmechanic]

You mean you haven't slept? How I wish i still have your stamina. I used to pull in 24 - 36 hours of stragiht programming easily when I was much younger. But these days, I try to be an early to bed early to rise type. Although I have to admit most of my innovative ideas/designs have usually been conceived in the early hours.

mas ok daw yung walang tulog kesa walang gising!
sori po wala lang pong magawa di po makatiis na di sumabat he he!

i really wish that i could be able to contribute to your project, maganda yan! anyway i'll make my own research, enjoy e!

[hein]

But sheet metal on a small scale has no repeatability.. unless you have the necessary pressing equipment, you have to resort to an army of panel-beaters. And their output won't be repeatable (or scalable).

If you still resort to an army of panel beaters (lateros) like a lot of the local carmakers, then you can't have a decent presentable PhUV. Even Henry Ford used stamping machines for the body panels used in his Model T's during the early 1900's.

For CONSISTENCY (is that the word you are looking for, orly?) and COST-EFFECTIVENESS, sheetmetal is still the best material. Believe me- the car companies have experimented with alternative materials since the 1970's (remember the disastrous plastic-bodied PONTIAC FIERO?). They have always come back to the good old reliable.

Most importantly, would the market accept a car whose body is made out of bamboo or coconut fibre? It's a recipe for FINANCIAL DISASTER if you ask me.

[orly_andico]

Hein,

That was my point. If you don't have the capital for stamping machines, then perhaps molding machines would be more attainable?

No question, "latero method" really won't fly.

As for the market accepting bamboo-fiber bodied cars.. I refer you to Hermann Goering's quote about the De Havilland Mosquito light bomber.

[OyiL]

A PhUV truck ...about the same size as full-size american pickups.

[mazdamazda]

IMO - the discussions in the thread are a bit confusing. The topic ranges from body design, cost and even body panel fabrication.

Try to create new threads for separate topics so that it is not too confusing / intimidating to other members reading the thread.

[architect]

Believe me- the car companies have experimented with alternative materials since the 1970's. They have always come back to the good old reliable.

The R&D efforts of conglomerates are usually undertaken within the context of the larger corporate infrastructure. The feasibility of resultant products is therefore almost never evaluated in a vacuum but instead is determined by various other factors such as cost of production line adjustments, realized returns on existing machineries, effects of labor (under)utilization, existing supplier contracts (with political ramifications), etc.

In addition, large players often buy up new technology not so much to avail of it but to prevent the competition from using it.

As such, the reluctance of big players in using a particular alternative option does not necessarily imply an inherent unfeasibility but rather an incompatiblity with corporate priorities.

On the other hand the intrinsic advantage of a new entrant is that it does not have to contend with such legacy or excess baggage and is therefore more flexible to experiment with the design itself or the production process. By experimenting with new materials and new production processes, we might yet be able to come up with something. If we don't try, we will never know, will we?

Most importantly, would the market accept a car whose body is made out of bamboo or coconut fibre? It's a recipe for FINANCIAL DISASTER if you ask me.

The modular approach we are taking implies various components are plug-compatible. For the most part, especially the critical ones, we are actually quite conservative. But for the "non-technical" components, we feel there is more flexibility without necessarily incurring more risks. As such the use of alternative materials is an option we are considering. This is not to say that we won't offer the same components using conventional materials produced the traditional way. I am confident, should we reach the point where the PhUV is actually produced, there will be parties that will offer the more conventional components, in the same way, there will be more adventurous parties that will offer customized one-off versions.

[dprox]

IMO - the discussions in the thread are a bit confusing. The topic ranges from body design, cost and even body panel fabrication.
Try to create new threads for separate topics so that it is not too confusing / intimidating to other members reading the thread.

Oo nga, Maz. Tagal ko nang sinasabi yun. Ewan ko ba why nobody wants to start new threads. Somehow people just don't get the point - that this is a DESIGN thread, and that topic ends with Prototyping. That means Fabrication and Production posts are OT here.
I think it's understandable, since automaking involves a complex roadmap. So, if I may suggest, it might be good for thread regulars to visit wiki, just to get an idea about what threads can be started relative to vehicle design: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive#Further_reading

. . . and the "Tawi2 Beetle" doesn't look that bad either You might have stumbled on quite a fashionable idea. Miuccia Prada might just brand her name on that vehicle.

Hi varga!
OT: Here's a concept vehicle Miuccia might put her brand on. It's for the well-heeled. Made in Ma..kina, seriously. It's made of FRP, can run, but won't fly, considering that only the front is aerodynamic, the rear being an airscoop. The other drawback is that the driver smells like vinegar after a few minutes, and needs to be lubricated with tea tree oil. Dunno why.
BTW, you don't happen to wear Prada, do you? :laughbounce:

[dprox]

Sheetmetal is OK, but even plastics are OLD TECH na. Figure this one out:

• I was the first all-American sports car built by an American car manufacturer. That was 1953.
• I have been proclaimed to be "America's Sports Car".
• My outer body was made out of a revolutionary new composite material called "fiberglass", chosen partly because of steel quotas left over from WW2.
• I was never made of sheet metal, but fiberglass from Job-1 onwards -- until today.
• The first units of me were virtually handbuilt.
• For the 2004 Commemorative Edition I was given a carbon fiber hood.
• In 2006, I was given carbon fiber front fenders as well.
• In the near future, you will see me with carbon fiber doors, fenders, rear deck spoiler, and front splitter.

What's my name? :car:

[drey]

Sheetmetal is OK, but even plastics are OLD TECH na. Figure this one out:

• I was the first all-American sports car built by an American car manufacturer. That was 1953.
• I have been proclaimed to be "America's Sports Car".
• My outer body was made out of a revolutionary new composite material called "fiberglass", chosen partly because of steel quotas left over from WW2.
• I was never made of sheet metal, but fiberglass from Job-1 onwards -- until today.
• The first units of me were virtually handbuilt.
• For the 2004 Commemorative Edition I was given a carbon fiber hood.
• In 2006, I was given carbon fiber front fenders as well.
• In the near future, you will see me with carbon fiber doors, fenders, rear deck spoiler, and front splitter.

What's my name? :car:

Chevrolet Corvette?

[hein]

Hein,

That was my point. If you don't have the capital for stamping machines, then perhaps molding machines would be more attainable?

No question, "latero method" really won't fly.

As for the market accepting bamboo-fiber bodied cars.. I refer you to Hermann Goering's quote about the De Havilland Mosquito light bomber.

The wooden Mosquito airplane was bourne out of the wartime shortage of aluminum in the 1940's. As a govenment project, it was never sold to the public market. After WWII, the aircraft manufacturers went back to aluminum as the cost-effective lightweight material of choice.

Eventually, wood became OBSOLETE because it was deemed unsuitable for the pressurized cabins of the more advanced aircraft.

Large PLASTIC MOLDING machines are more expensive than stamping machines and trickier to use. May stamping machines ang MDJuan.

[dprox]

Guys, for BODY PANELS, stick to SHEETMETAL. All the other materials aforementioned will cost more and/or take too much time to fabricate. Plus quality will be dicey.

Thanks, hein.

For doability, sheetmetal for the PhUV prototype panels can be made of B.I. or G.I., and handcrafted, of course.
Flat panels would be better in Ga.16. If curved and charactered, Ga.18 might do, depending on how large the surfaces are between curves/bends.
However, AFAIK, the price of 4x8 Ga.16 has jumped from P1,100 in 2003-04 to the current P2,000.

OT INFO: For production, sheetmetal for bodywork can be made of cold rolled mild steel (20% or low carbon), that is "SK" (silicon-killed) or "AK" (aluminum-killed). Silicon or aluminum is used to "kill" -- ie, to prevent molten steel from bubbling and oxidizing, resulting in a finer-grained, tougher, but more ductile steel. It comes in different thicknesses or "gage".
This is different from galvanized iron. In fact, the gage standards for CR steel and G.I. are different (gage calculator available at http://www.efunda.com/designstandard...et_forward.cfm)

QUESTION to hein: If the tooth fairy sends us stamping equipt, or convinces the Valenzuela gang to make their machines available, what CR steel specs and gage range would you recommend for PhUV body panels? And how much would it cost compared to B.I.?

PS: I started another thread on automotive plastics (and other alternatives) na.

[mike01]

If you still resort to an army of panel beaters (lateros) like a lot of the local carmakers, then you can't have a decent presentable PhUV. Even Henry Ford used stamping machines for the body panels used in his Model T's during the early 1900's.

For CONSISTENCY (is that the word you are looking for, orly?) and COST-EFFECTIVENESS, sheetmetal is still the best material. Believe me- the car companies have experimented with alternative materials since the 1970's (remember the disastrous plastic-bodied PONTIAC FIERO?). They have always come back to the good old reliable.

Most importantly, would the market accept a car whose body is made out of bamboo or coconut fibre? It's a recipe for FINANCIAL DISASTER if you ask me.

mini buses in cavite have wooden bodies..

[eyshmechanic]

hello guys can you just go back to protyping first? Then saka pagtalunan and feasibility kung meron ng model. as i have said before mag-enjoy muna tayo sa explore ng creativity natin.