Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[OyiL]

[OyiL]

small car again

[ocanursjr]

oyil,kelan b launching ng PhUV ntin.naiinip n ko,sana ito n ung flag carrier ntin n ipagmamalaki s boung mundo.

[dprox]

They can't make EVs economical with traditional construction. About the best way to do it is to have a strong but lightweight frame (say, fiberglass-reinforced balsa-wood?) with a lightweight body, to offset the weight of the batteries.

I think the above comment belongs to another thread.

RE: Jeep-style: *dprox, so the engine price would put the cost of the project at 250k? Meaning retail would have to be 400-500k?

What I wanted to point out was that the allocation for the power train might be so high it could impact on the rest of the skeleton. And yes, my drift is that we might be raising expectations higher than what can be delivered at 350K retail. Hence the need to consider simpler, more economical design & engineering solutions.
If you apply the 2X rule, talagang papatak sa 500K -- pero talong-talo na 'yan sa 2nd hand CBUs. So, what I thought we should do is to work downward from the target retail price of 350K, without applying conventional markups. No point detailing the math here.
Perhaps interested tsikoteers can do this as a practical exercise. The challenge is this: Given the target retail price of 350K - markups included - how would you apportion your production cost among the three major parts of the PhUV, namely: Rolling Chassis, Power Train, and Body (see attached diagram and fill in the blanks).
Hint: where are you willing to make sacrifices - smooth ride, horse power, style&comfort, or profit? Would a quality PhUV be feasible at all at 350K, without availing of surplus parts? What other creative ways can we lower costs without churning out lemons?
If you can deliver some answers, e di kasali ka na sa core group.
Hirap 'no? Pero alam ko mahahanapan natin ng paraan yan!

[hein]

....sana ito n ung flag carrier ntin n ipagmamalaki s boung mundo.

Don't get your hopes up. 30 years na behind tayo sa technology. Expect a modest AUV-type vehicle using a lot of off-the-shelf parts and a lot of flat panels.

[OyiL]

Is it possible to buy a set(5 pcs ea) of brand new wheels and tires at the price of second hand ones?

remember the 60% local content. 60% means - 60% of total vehicle production cost (no idea if that includes labor). 60% of 250K( itabi na natin yung 50K para sa overhead) -> 150K. Something wrong here...yung engine na brand new e 100K+ na.... maryosep...the other parts should be made of plywood na lang. Boat na lang kaya ang i-design natin. Tama yata yung mga amphibian cars na nasa powerpoint presentation ni dprox.

or what if we use second hand parts...yung tipong pwedeng palitan ng may-ari. like, wheels and tires. ganyan din naman ang wheels and tires ng mga SUVics diba. tapos sila na lang magdagdag ng side mirrors, or rear view mirrors. or third brake light. chicken wire na lang ang gamitin natin sa front grilles. pati seats, second hand na lang. i-upgrade na lang nila. optional na lang yung mga interior sidings. waddya think, people?

[architect]

Don't get your hopes up. 30 years na behind tayo sa technology. Expect a modest AUV-type vehicle using a lot of off-the-shelf parts and a lot of flat panels.

I am just curious. How did you arrive at the belief that we are 30 years behind as opposed to 20 or even 10? And do you mean just automotive technology or technology in general?

30 years ago there was no World Wide Web. Today local public high school students have Internet access, where just about all sorts of the latest technological information is available. Granted implementing them requires funding but truly worthy projects will never lack for investors or sponsors. (The PhUV project of the tsikot group has interested sponsors/investors from the US and the Middle East, not to mention local parties.)

As for local automotive technology specifically, are you aware one of the PhUV core group member holds a patent for a rotary engine? Another had his entire team recruited to the Middle East to build a truck prototype. If we are truly 30 years behind, do you think the rest of the world would bother to hire Filipinos for automotive work?

As for a modest-looking AUV, what is wrong with that? For as long as it truly embodies Filipino characteristics, both aesthetically and functionally, and is both affordable and reliable, there is no reason for us to be ashamed of the resultant PhUV. Having that mindset is akin to being ashamed of your son simply because he is not handsome, notwithstanding whatever positive characteristics he might possess.

That said, aesthetics is the function of the automotive designer, or designers in general. The low budget should not be a hindrance. Instead, it should serve as a challenge. Just as developing an affordable, functional, and reliable PhUV should serve as a challenge for those of us who do not subscribe to the defeatist mindset that sadly seems to be so pervasive these days.

[niky]

I think the above comment belongs to another thread.

Pasensiya na. It was in response to an article or comment within the thread. Of course, though, fiberglass is a consideration for the PhUV also, but I don't think it's very economical when it comes to medium-to-mass scale production.

What I wanted to point out was that the allocation for the power train might be so high it could impact on the rest of the skeleton. And yes, my drift is that we might be raising expectations higher than what can be delivered at 350K retail. Hence the need to consider simpler, more economical design & engineering solutions.
If you apply the 2X rule, talagang papatak sa 500K -- pero talong-talo na 'yan sa 2nd hand CBUs. So, what I thought we should do is to work downward from the target retail price of 350K, without applying conventional markups. No point detailing the math here.
Perhaps interested tsikoteers can do this as a practical exercise. The challenge is this: Given the target retail price of 350K - markups included - how would you apportion your production cost among the three major parts of the PhUV, namely: Rolling Chassis, Power Train, and Body (see attached diagram and fill in the blanks).
Hint: where are you willing to make sacrifices - smooth ride, horse power, style&comfort, or profit? Would a quality PhUV be feasible at all at 350K, without availing of surplus parts? What other creative ways can we lower costs without churning out lemons?
If you can deliver some answers, e di kasali ka na sa core group.
Hirap 'no? Pero alam ko mahahanapan natin ng paraan yan!

Good idea! Would you guys have any info regarding the going prices for certain components? That would help with the math.

I think powertrain would be the number one consideration. In this current Chinese invasion, I've seen Chinese manufacturers trump up the fact that they're delivering Japanese powerplants in some of their models. In fact, one pickup importer charges 100k extra for the model with the Isuzu engine.

AUV operators will forgive any sins of handling/ride/refinement, as long as they're getting a good engine. But that leaves very little room for anything else.

[tsikot]

I am just curious. How did you arrive at the belief that we are 30 years behind as opposed to 20 or even 10? And do you mean just automotive technology or technology in general?

30 years ago there was no World Wide Web. Today local public high school students have Internet access, where just about all sorts of the latest technological information is available. Granted implementing them requires funding but truly worthy projects will never lack for investors or sponsors. (The PhUV project of the tsikot group has interested sponsors/investors from the US and the Middle East, not to mention local parties.)

As for local automotive technology specifically, are you aware one of the PhUV core group member holds a patent for a rotary engine? Another had his entire team recruited to the Middle East to build a truck prototype. If we are truly 30 years behind, do you think the rest of the world would bother to hire Filipinos for automotive work?

As for a modest-looking AUV, what is wrong with that? For as long as it truly embodies Filipino characteristics, both aesthetically and functionally, and is both affordable and reliable, there is no reason for us to be ashamed of the resultant PhUV. Having that mindset is akin to being ashamed of your son simply because he is not handsome, notwithstanding whatever positive characteristics he might possess.

That said, aesthetics is the function of the automotive designer, or designers in general. The low budget should not be a hindrance. Instead, it should serve as a challenge. Just as developing an affordable, functional, and reliable PhUV should serve as a challenge for those of us who do not subscribe to the defeatist mindset that sadly seems to be so pervasive these days.

well said architect. :thumbsup:

i agree with you, absolutely! tsikot.com is fully behind this worthy endeavor and will provide whatever support, help and assistance this community can humbly give.

[OyiL]

what if we just import engine blocks and cylinder head and other engine hard parts tapos assemble na lang natin yung engine locally haluan natin ng ibang parts na ginagawa dito, like the gaskets. or baka may gumagawa na dito ng mga yan. makatipid pa tayo ng 10K.

[safeorigin]

now i applied modernized filipino aesthetics. i made the hood, the rear and front lamps jeepney-like but in a modern way. note that the grille is shaped like a native pinoy shield. add the emblem then we have a very original design.
this one is a family PhUV.

[safeorigin]

this one functions as a mass transit PhUV. note that it has split-type doors. provided with a wide chassis, the passenger capacity can be 12-18.

[safeorigin]

if my military jungle crawler ain't good enough, i made a PhAPC just for pinoys. includes a sliding shield for added safety during deployment. cool eh. wahahaha

[OyiL]

this one functions as a mass transit PhUV. note that it has split-type doors. provided with a wide chassis, the passenger capacity can be 12-18.

hey safe! now our designs are starting to have the same features
here's my suicide door....all my designs after this one incorporates the half width, suicide third row door.

[safeorigin]

well yeah, i saw your sketch before. well, i did some changes in my sketches. i read a book about american car designs and used their procedure in making concepts cars. it goes like this, we need to apply: functionality, words and cultural values in our design. what i meant on words is first you describe what kind of vehicle we're making. is it conservative or confident; aggressive or non aggressive; relaxed or sturdy? put all of these together and youcan come up with a vehicle that gives a message to its buyer. this is the same process that ford uses.

i used cultural values in a way that it shows what pinoys are like. the jeepney style hood and headlamps are good examples of expressing it. there is also an advantage in it. by making slight modifications in what present jeepney manufaturers produce, mass prodution of the body wont be too difficult.

and if pinoys can make an APC, surely we can make a PhUV.

[architect]

well said architect. :thumbsup:

i agree with you, absolutely! tsikot.com is fully behind this worthy endeavor and will provide whatever support, help and assistance this community can humbly give.

Thanks for the kind and encouraging words. Even though we all know the tsikot PhUV project might be a pipe dream that we are pursuing, still if we do not actually exert the effort to try and fulfill it, we will never know what we are truly capable of achieving.

At the same time, it has been both enlightening and heartwarming to discover that we have pertinent world-caliber expertise within the tsikot group capable of undertaking such a project, or at the very least, pave the first few miles of the road for others to continue.

If in the process, we manage to change the mindset of a few individuals right here in tsikot, then I would say the efforts will be worth it, regardless of the end results.

[OyiL]

well yeah, i saw your sketch before. well, i did some changes in my sketches. i read a book about american car designs and used their procedure in making concepts cars. it goes like this, we need to apply: functionality, words and cultural values in our design. what i meant on words is first you describe what kind of vehicle we're making. is it conservative or confident; aggressive or non aggressive; relaxed or sturdy? put all of these together and youcan come up with a vehicle that gives a message to its buyer. this is the same process that ford uses.

i used cultural values in a way that it shows what pinoys are like. the jeepney style hood and headlamps are good examples of expressing it. there is also an advantage in it. by making slight modifications in what present jeepney manufaturers produce, mass prodution of the body wont be too difficult.

and if pinoys can make an APC, surely we can make a PhUV.

Then..the PhUV design should embody the pinoy characteristics....in words, to comply with the FORD process..
1. CONFIDENT...it has to, stand alongside other makes with the same level of poise...design-wise.
2. NON-AGGRESIVE...clean..pero merong ipagyayabang....like sleepers..nasa loob ang kulo. hindi masyado standout..madaling i-blend sa normal crowd. pero pag pinakialaman ni A-toy, best-in-show!
3. relaxed o sturdy?? dapat pwede pang sosyalan (ang itsura, di iisnabin), pwede rin sa putikan(macho, bad boy).


dapat gawin nating fashion statement din..pang bagets...para after 3 years...paglabas ng next generation....papalitan na ...para "in" pa rin ang mga bugoy.

[dprox]

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Keep posting.
Thanks.

[architect]

Hi Lio,

Considering that the lifespan of local cars typically range from 10 to 15 years, the PhUV's design should ideally be classical enough as to keep in pace with newer styling innovations.

If you think about, there are certain cars whose styles have remained consistent but up-to-date through the years - Porsche, VW Beetle, MB, Jeeps, etc. And even if their newer models essentially look the same, these brands continue to thrive in the market because of other innovations.

Actually local jeepneys have the same obsolescence-proof design but perhaps it is more due to lack of innovation and an de facto lower standard of acceptance by the public. Still it can't be denied the jeepney does share some lines with the Jeep.

Thus, it only goes to show that classical lines in design do not necessarily imply higher costs. It may help to take this into consideration in designing our PhUV.

BTW, have you gotten in touch with donbuggy? I think he is also based in Singapore.

[OyiL]

Hi Lio,
..............
BTW, have you gotten in touch with donbuggy? I think he is also based in Singapore.

Tigerbug, yes....don...not yet.