Sorry Evercool but we beg to differ.

[EVO-V]

So which would be a better radiator given the case above? Aluminum core or copper core

In this situation a copper/brass radiator would be better as it would be more resistant to corrosion.

But you need to understand all these issues are conditional. As long as you don't have any stray voltage running through the engine and as long as your coolant chemistry is relatively neutral you'll be fine with an aluminum radiator.

[EVO-V]

*TS, well, your the one who's making it personal TS, sa mga post mo eh parang may galit ka. wala ba? i have no problem with evercool, thats why i dont create threads like what you did. and by the way, CHILL DUDE. im just stating the obvious.

Erm what about this is personal? You did read the posts right? I have a problem with their alchemy posting for science marketing practices and this thread is intended to correct the disinformation they are propagating. If they have a rep willing to discuss these things, they are free to do so.

I've also recommended their radiators vs getting one recored in radiator chop shops.

If there's anything else less objective than your need to cite the supposedly "obvious" please let me know and I shall address them.

[oj88]

Interesting thread, especially about the effects of bad grounding practices and electrolyses as the cause of cooling system corrosion.

It then begs the question of whether one should ground the radiator core or not? There seems to be two school of thoughts. Some TSBs say that grounding the core is essential while others say otherwise.

My take is that, you shouldn't. Doing so will cause it to become an anode and encourage electrolyses, the opposite of what you want. But what if you can put in a sacrificial anode to divert the electrolyses from happening in the radiator core?

If you think about it, most modern vehicles sporting aluminum radiators seems to have all the parts necessary to isolate the radiator core from chassis ground. Just to mention a few, they have plastic top and bottom covers, use rubber grommets for suspension, and have largely-plastic fan blowers and shrouds that essentially function as insulators from any metal.

Reactions?

[s10pao]

My take is that, you shouldn't. Doing so will cause it to become an anode and encourage electrolyses, the opposite of what you want. But what if you can put in a sacrificial anode to divert the electrolyses from happening in the radiator core?
Reactions?

From what I understand, this should not make the radiator an anode. Grounding the the radiator ensures that stray current will not
flow through the radiator since current follows the least resistive path (which is the grounding wire).

[EVO-V]

If your engine is not properly grounded, then we're not addressing the problem in the first place.

Always remember folks, use a good coolant.

[EVO-V]

From what I understand, this should not make the radiator an anode. Grounding the the radiator ensures that stray current will not
flow through the radiator since current follows the least resistive path (which is the grounding wire).

Depending on the alloy mix in the loop. If your engine block is iron and your rad aluminum by default, ground (stray voltages) or otherwise, the aluminum is the sacrificial anode.

[dr. d]

...because Aluminum is lower in the activity chain than that of other metals in the engine and has a relatively smaller mass in ratio to the surface areas exposed.

actually, aluminum is one of the most reactive ("highest") metals in the activity chain. only magnesium rates higher.. (potassium, sodium and calcium are higher still, but let's not get too technical..). so,... magnesium is the sacrificial lamb?.. mag wheels anyone? heh heh.
and mass has nothing to do with reactivity.. but a large surface area does tend to speed things up..

and coolant solutions have anti-corrosion substances in them, to prevent or slow down corrosion of metals. but eventually, these additives get used up. that is why some authorities recommend regular replacement of radiator liquids.

propylene glycol and ethylene glycol as pollutants? maybe not so much, because these are used as de-icers in airports. ..

and i re-read the suggested reading at the start of this thread. i still can't see the name of "Evercool" in there...

[s10pao]

Depending on the alloy mix in the loop. If your engine block is iron and your rad aluminum by default, ground (stray voltages) or otherwise, the aluminum is the sacrificial anode.

Thanks for this information sir.

So in this case, is proper grounding of engine enough to prevent galvanic corrosion or is there a need to install a sacrificial anode?

[EVO-V]

...because Aluminum is lower in the activity chain than that of other metals in the engine and has a relatively smaller mass in ratio to the surface areas exposed.

actually, aluminum is one of the most reactive ("highest") metals in the activity chain. only magnesium rates higher.. (potassium, sodium and calcium are higher still, but let's not get too technical..). so,... magnesium is the sacrificial lamb?.. mag wheels anyone? heh heh.

and mass has nothing to do with reactivity.. but a large surface area does tend to speed things up..

Aluminum is lower in the activity chain hence it is more reactive. Check your periodic table.

The greater the mass of an object provides the higher the electrical resistance. Less resistance increases galvanic corrosion. That is why an aluminum engine block in a galvanic solution will not corrode as fast as an aluminum radiator where the tubes are thin relative to their exposed surface area.

and coolant solutions have anti-corrosion substances in them, to prevent or slow down corrosion of metals. but eventually, these additives get used up. that is why some authorities recommend regular replacement of radiator liquids.

Depends on your coolants' lifetime rating. The stock coolant that comes with your car should last at least 100,000 km if you do not contaminate it. Aftermarket cost-optimized coolants have shorter lifetimes.

Which authorities are you referring to who recommend regular replacement of radiator coolant?

propylene glycol and ethylene glycol as pollutants? maybe not so much, because these are used as de-icers in airports. ..

Funny you mentioned de-icers. De-icers actually have neutralizing agents as per requirement. What you would worry about when flushing coolant is the contamination from the the engine that comes with the run off.

and i re-read the suggested reading at the start of this thread. i still can't see the name of "Evercool" in there...

Site is sponsored by Evercool's parent company RAIPMC and maintained by an SEO sub-contractor.

[EVO-V]

Thanks for this information sir.

So in this case, is proper grounding of engine enough to prevent galvanic corrosion or is there a need to install a sacrificial anode?

Proper grounding is important. By grounding, lest the good doctor gets very nitpicky, means that its properly earthed.

Placing a sacrificial anode is not necessarily a good thing for cars. The resulting corrosion will cause more problems and degrade your coolant solution.

This is only done in really large heat exchangers for industrial applications wherein it is inevitable to mix metals in the loop. The tolerance for anodic byproducts are higher.

[oj88]

From what I understand, this should not make the radiator an anode. Grounding the the radiator ensures that stray current will not
flow through the radiator since current follows the least resistive path (which is the grounding wire).

I was under the impression that grounding the radiator core would cause any charge present in the coolant to dissipate in the radiator, encouraging corrosion.

FWIW, I had to order the Honda Type 2 long-life coolant from the US a few years ago as it is the recommended coolant for my Civic (as stated in the manual and on the sticker under the hood). This is also the same coolant used when the car came out of the factory.

The only locally available Honda coolant is the Type 1 (non-long-life)... and I never use it, much less aftermarket coolants.

My car will be 5 y/o this January and I have not changed the factory coolant once. It's still the blue-colored liquid without any hint of corrosion. I only top it up with Honda Type 2 coolant once or twice a year.

[EVO-V]

I was under the impression that grounding the radiator core would cause any charge present in the coolant to dissipate in the radiator, encouraging corrosion.

Car manufacturers prefer to keep the radiator electrically isolated. You really can't dissipate the charge in the coolant through the radiator.

Any transfer of voltages/current between a solid-fluid medium will cause a reaction . Kinda like electricity from wall sockets arcing when you plug in an appliance that was left switched on. The electricity jumps into the air from the socket to the plug.

That happens at a microscopic level between the coolant and the radiator.

[EVO-V]

FWIW, I had to order the Honda Type 2 long-life coolant from the US a few years ago as it is the recommended coolant for my Civic (as stated in the manual and on the sticker under the hood). This is also the same coolant used when the car came out of the factory.

The only locally available Honda coolant is the Type 1 (non-long-life)... and I never use it, much less aftermarket coolants.

My car will be 5 y/o this January and I have not changed the factory coolant once. It's still the blue-colored liquid without any hint of corrosion. I only top it up with Honda Type 2 coolant once or twice a year.

The reservoir should have enough coolant to accommodate losses due to gassification and permeation in between recommended changes.

But that is exactly what people should be doing for their cars and what manufacturers should be recommending.

The Philippines is a cost-sensitive market that people would prefer to pay cheap now and pray that it doesn't bite them in the arse later.

Businesswise more coolant = more money. More crapped out radiators = more business for manufacturers and/or radiator repair shops.

[oj88]

Car manufacturers prefer to keep the radiator electrically isolated. You really can't dissipate the charge in the coolant through the radiator.

Any transfer of voltages/current between a solid-fluid medium will cause a reaction . Kinda like electricity from wall sockets arcing when you plug in an appliance that was left switched on. The electricity jumps into the air from the socket to the plug.

That happens at a microscopic level between the coolant and the radiator.

Exactly my point. Thanks for confirming what little knowledge I have on cooling systems.

As I mentioned several posts back, the fact that most modern aluminum radiators are practically isolated from the chassis ground (by using rubber grommets and plastic tops and bottoms) are a dead giveaway.

Grounding the radiator OR using it as a grounding point for any electrical accessory is just asking for trouble.

[EVO-V]

Exactly my point. Thanks for confirming what little knowledge I have on cooling systems.

As I mentioned several posts back, the fact that most modern aluminum radiators are practically isolated from the chassis ground (by using rubber grommets and plastic tops and bottoms) are a dead giveaway.

Grounding the radiator OR using it as a grounding point for any electrical accessory is just asking for trouble.

Most of these things should be commonsense but we have to deal with a lot of pseudo science floating around that is just discrediting the local industry and causing harm to consumers.


Here's another one from that website: Radiators: How hot is too hot? | Automotive Parts Suppliers

The normal temperature of an engine should be around 90 to 105 degree Celsius. With the help of radiators, the engines can go up as high as 135 degree Celsius. The radiators will be there to back up as the cooler all the time. That’s where flat fin radiators become useful as they can cover a lot of area to control the above-average temperature of the engine.

Not too sure about the 135C figure here. But I find it funny how they start inserting "Flat fin" surreptitiously here without justifying it.

Flat fin radiators have far lesser surface area than folded fin radiators per area. These are arguably the most inferior configurations for heat transfer but are structurally more rigid. They serve a purpose for use in heavy duty/high vibration applications which are prone to fouling (clogging).

For one to get an equivalent performance for a typical car radiator using a flat fin implementation, you're going to have something 2-3 times the size. Which will cause fitment issues not to mention serious weight addition. Not to mention these things aren't cheap given it takes 20 times as much more time to build a flat fin radiator.

So unless your ride is a John Deere tractor this snippet doesn't make any sense.

And the hits just keep coming:

Warm air goes up, cool air goes down. Therefore it will be ideal to place your radiators above the engine and let physics do the work.

For natural convection to be effective for your cars, you will need a really large amount of surface area i.e. a large radiator roughly the size of the car itself to get enough surface area. And for this to be practical, you will need to have the space to mount it. This over the top implementation has been done for earth moving equipment but not for the reasons of passive convection but because ramming through a mound of dirt can foul up your radiator. And even then it uses a fan.

Moreover, I do not think it is wise utilizing warm air as your fluid medium to remove heat from a radiator. For one, it is hotter thus has a lower thermal capacity, and in certain conditions you may end up heating up your core rather than cooling it.

[EVO-V]

To check your coolant level, you simply need to look at the white plastic overflow tank beside your radiator. These containers usually have high-low level labels on them which will help you determine if it’s time for you to replenish you coolant. If your coolant level is already low, just remove the cap on your coolant tank and add your mixture until it reaches its recommended level again. And then, place back the cap to close the receptacle.

Replenishing your coolant without determining the reason for loss is imbecilic.

[dr. d]

Replenishing your coolant without determining the reason for loss is imbecilic.

when my coolant level reached the low point for the first time since i bought the car, brand new, five years ago... all i did was top it off. two years after, it still hadn't gone down back to the low point.
sometimes, the "determining period" takes a longer time than usual...

[EVO-V]

Coolant loss either due to leaks, permeation, evaporation (of the water component) is excessive once that level goes down drastically. You need to figure out why this is happening. Excessive evaporation may leave residue clogging your radiator tubes.

Modern vehicles shouldn't be losing any coolant until it needs to be changed.

Modern coolants, i.e. lifetime coolants will not go down unless there's a leak.