New fort Bus running on CNG

[reym]

Hi Guys,

Just want to thank the HM transport for providing the first cng bus in for route.
I think if CNG will be successful, oil companies will have a good competitor, and might lower their price.

[Mile2]

Meron na ding provincial buses na naka CNG nakasabay ko kanina sa EDSA...BBL Trans, biyaheng Batangas-Laguna.

[ghosthunter]

Hi Guys,

Just want to thank the HM transport for providing the first cng bus in for route.
I think if CNG will be successful, oil companies will have a good competitor, and might lower their price.

It will just give the bus companies an option but not give the oil companies competition.

Why?

CNG buses cannot use diesel fuel. And diesel buses cannot use CNG. CNG fueled buses can only use CNG.

So changing from diesel to CNG would require a new bus.

A new bus is expensive. So don't expect bus fares to go down.

Don't expect many bus companies switching to CNG anytime soon.

Also CNG refueling stations are rare. So that also limits the potential wider adaption of CNG buses.

As for the oil companies, for the foreseeable future, there will be more demand for diesel than CNG.

CNG use is not even a drop in the proverbial bucket.

BTW, I do think more buses fueled with CNG is a good thing. It is just that we still need improved CNG support infrastructure to get the whole thing going faster.

[uls]

CNG will not be competition for oil companies

CNG is supplied by oil companies

[reym]

Everything starts from small steps.
Kahit ung fx dati wala sumasakay eh.
Auto LPG started with just a few stations.

AFAIK Buses franchise are good only for a few years, then you have to replace your unit.

It will just give the bus companies an option but not give the oil companies competition.

Why?

CNG buses cannot use diesel fuel. And diesel buses cannot use CNG. CNG fueled buses can only use CNG.

So changing from diesel to CNG would require a new bus.

A new bus is expensive. So don't expect bus fares to go down.

Don't expect many bus companies switching to CNG anytime soon.

Also CNG refueling stations are rare. So that also limits the potential wider adaption of CNG buses.

As for the oil companies, for the foreseeable future, there will be more demand for diesel than CNG.

CNG use is not even a drop in the proverbial bucket.

BTW, I do think more buses fueled with CNG is a good thing. It is just that we still need improved CNG support infrastructure to get the whole thing going faster.

[niky]

The big problem with CNG buses is that the government pushed for it, got bus companies to buy buses, and got Shell to put up refueling points.

Then... nothing. The government promised a stable supply and support for the companies running CNG buses. Nothing came of it. What do you expect? That's government.

As opposed to LPG. Where private companies started offering the kits... private parties bought the systems without government incentives... and other private companies opened up refueling stations. Wham. We have hundreds of LPG stations in the Philippines now. Finally the government steps in and tries to get into the game with LPG jeepneys... but jeepney drivers have no incentive to do this... diesel isn't much more expensive than LPG, and diesel engines are more economical.

CNG, mind you, is a good idea... but until market demands support it, it will always be a very limited fuel. The market decides everything.

RE: FX taxis... errh... peopel rode them before. Back then, they were just hire taxis. Then they started offering lines. Then people started riding them. Then they proliferated.

We've had CNG buses and fuel points for years, already. And the company owners I've talked to who were in on the original experiment are not really that keen to keep on going with it.

CNG will not be competition for oil companies

CNG is supplied by oil companies

:hysterical:

[uls]

Everything starts from small steps.
Kahit ung fx dati wala sumasakay eh.

how exactly do FX taxis compare to CNG buses?

the fuel supply infrastructure for FX taxis don't have to be built from the ground up

with CNG buses, you need an entirely new fuel supply infrastructure

the refuelling stations are the easy part

question is, how reliable is the supply of natural gas to those refuelling stations?

the supply comes from oil companies

if the volume isnt big enough, will the oil companies even bother to guarantee a steady supply?

[ghosthunter]

Everything starts from small steps.
Kahit ung fx dati wala sumasakay eh.
Auto LPG started with just a few stations.

Auto-LPG started out as a private venture. Primarily to support the numerous Auto-LPG converted taxi cabs and the handful of auto-lpg private cars.

Auto-LPG stations were generally financially self-sustaining from the start.

CNG stations will only be serving buses for the foreseeable future.

How many CNG buses are there now?

See the difference?

[uls]

chicken or the egg yan eh

with auto LPG, there are thousands and thousands of vehicles for LPG conversion

in short, there's demand

so naturally, supply followed

now, how many CNG buses are there?

is the demand big enough to entice supply?

[badkuk]

hmm...i wonder where that fort bus refuels. afaik there isn't a CNG refueling station in the area.

Kakatuwa nga ung CNG vs. LPG thing...ung CNG, government na ang nagback, pumalpak; on the other hand a couple of relatively small companies started putting up small LPG conversion and fueling stations -- uncoordinated at that -- yun pa ang nagclick.


Bakit nga ba di tinuloy ung paggawa ng CNG stations?

imho, government, with all its power, could have made this work. Heck, they could have mandated that, for starters, 5% of all bus fleets must be CNG, then gradually increase that figure as more CNG refueling stations got online. Even if the feasibility studies suggest a less than optimal chance of success, they could have easilty changed the rules to make it a success. Heck, it didn't even need to make money(initially, anyways) as government can provide subsidies.

question lang: why can't we use LPG for buses? Kulang sa power factor or something?

[bmacavanza]

To convert to LPG, the engine must be a gasoline fed engine.

[uls]

Kakatuwa nga ung CNG vs. LPG thing...ung CNG, government na ang nagback, pumalpak; on the other hand a couple of relatively small companies started putting up small LPG conversion and fueling stations -- uncoordinated at that -- yun pa ang nagclick.

private enterprise > govt planning

market forces > govt planning

[niky]

As far as I remember, CNG is cheaper, but LPG gives more power and doesn't require extremely thick-walled tanks.

CNG is hard to implement on small cars... but a bus doesn't care as much that its fuel tank is suddenly heavier than a Charade...

[ghosthunter]

question lang: why can't we use LPG for buses? Kulang sa power factor or something?

it is the difference between diesel and gasoline engines.

diesel engine = ignition by air/fuel compression

gasoline engine = spark ignition

To get a diesel engine to run on LPG only, you need to retrofit a sparkplug in each cylinder and retrofit a throttle-valve on the engine among other stuff.

CNG runs nearly like diesel.

LPG runs nearly like gasoline.

BTW, you can use LPG in a diesel engine in a diesel/lpg mix. But the system tends to be expensive and savings not as big.

[reym]

taken from http://www.afsglobal.com/faq/diesel-...onversion.html

Diesel to Natural Gas Conversion

Many cities and countries today have programs to convert older, polluting diesel transit buses and trucks to run on clean, economical natural gas. Properly implemented, this is an excellent way to quickly reduce fuel costs, clean up the air and reduce noise with minimum capital costs. A poorly executed conversion program, however, can lead to higher exhaust emissions, much higher fuel consumption, unacceptable power losses, poor durability and high maintenance costs.

Diesel to natural gas conversion requires careful engineering on the base engine modifications as well as the control system. The investment required means that these projects only make sense for larger volume fleets. Following is a very basic overview of modifications required for a successful conversion:

Compression Ratio: A typical diesel engine has a compression ratio of between 16 and 18 to 1. CNG usually works best between 10 and 12; so new or modified pistons are required, with an appropriately shaped combustion chamber to allow proper air-fuel mixing.

Spark Plugs: Diesels don’t have spark plugs; instead they have diesel fuel injectors. A diesel conversion replaces the injector with a spark plug and may also require an insert to go through the valve cover – depending on the engine. Spark plug wear is a common problem, and the high compression ratio and use of gaseous fuel requires higher spark voltage than a petrol car.

Valves: Natural Gas is a dry fuel so valve seats in a converted engine need to be hardened to prevent abnormal wear. Older engines need valve guide seals to prevent engine vacuum from drawing oil into the combustion chamber.

Thermal Issues: Spark ignited engines run hotter than diesels. Such engines may require upgraded thermal management components, including larger oil coolers, larger radiators, and heat shields around exhaust components.

Catalytic Converter: A catalyst will generally be required to meet emission regulations. The exception is lean-burn engines, which, if carefully engineered, can meet certain emissions targets without a converter.

Engine Management System: Your choice will depend on the exhaust emissions requirements, efficiency targets, durability expectations, technology level of the vehicle and peripheral device control requirements such as cruise control, power take-off, automatic transmissions etc. AFS produces a range of products or can custom design for these varying requirements.

[ghosthunter]

AFAIK Buses franchise are good only for a few years, then you have to replace your unit.

Even if standard diesel fed bus franchise last for a few years, replacing the unit with another diesel fed unit makes better sense than going for a unit that uses cheaper fuel (CNG) but no where in the city to get that fuel.

You can get diesel from any petrol station.

Can you name a place in the city you can regularly refuel a bus running on CNG?

Even after years of the government pushing for the adoption of CNG for bus use, we have yet to see it happen beyond the testing phase.

[mark_t]

Are we not producing CNG at Malampaya, Palawan?

[ghosthunter]

Are we not producing CNG at Malampaya, Palawan?

yes but most of the production is being used to fuel a natural gas power plant. A small amount was used to supply the pilot CNG refueling station project along SLEX.

http://www.doe.gov.ph/ER/Natgas.htm

[uls]

having a source of NG is one thing

storage, transport, distribution is another thing

where is the infrastructure?

[uls]

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