AMC Hammer - the template for Pinoy built vehicles?

[dprox]

Puede kaya AMC Hammer PHUV? yung pampasada at pag-karga din para lumaki market nyo AMC....ganda kasi gawa ninyo...

I'm also waiting for AMC to produce their own design PhUV. As of now, made to order pa rin ang Hammer nila.

Looks like we are all waiting for AMC to design a new vehicle.

First, talagang kailangan magdesign sila Jappy ng ORIGINAL
para maging "Philippine" talaga (ie, hindi replica).

Second, kailangan MAS MALUWAG kaysa sa Hammer para "Utility" talaga -
more cargo & at least 15 passengers (ie, hindi masikip).

Third, kailangan MAS MURA sa current Hammer para mas kaya ng nakararaming Pinoy.

OKs na OKs naman ang present design nito - pangmaykaya, pamporma, at pang-export - pero mahirap pang tawaging "PhUV" ang AMC Hammer, sa totoo lang.

I threw that challenge to Jappy last February pa. Jappy, musta na ba?
Meron na ba kayong bagong design o hihintayin na lang ninyo ang Tsikot PhUV?
Sakaling matuloy ang Tsikot PhUV, sana kasali ang Alana Motors sa paggawa nito.
.

[webmiester]

Ang kalaban pa rin is the availability of a cheap but durable Brand New Engine.

The "everything brand new" label is supposed to be the selling point for the PhUV and the New Anfra

The Hammer doesnt come with a brand new engine,chassis,etc at 650k...If it did, it might cost us 1.2M rin...

Then there's marketability... FMC took up the challenge to make an affordable brand new vehicle that was pangmasa, pangutility, etc... Now their burdened with debts

I think that the market the current Hammer is threading on is safer.

[jpdm]

Then there's marketability... FMC took up the challenge to make an affordable brand new vehicle that was pangmasa, pangutility, etc... Now their burdened with debts

I think that the market the current Hammer is threading on is safer.

With all due respect sir, There is always a market for locally produced vehicles. In fact, in one of my posts, I quoted a research paper funded by the Japanese regarding the dominance of the local jeepney, tricycle and auv in the local transport industry.You want a copy?

About FMC, the information I got is that they are burdened with debts not because of the production of ANfra but because another company (MAZDA)just dropped them like a hot potato aside from other internal problems.

I hope AMC Hammer will continue producing good vehicles and perhaps improve its technology and someday will work for a PHUV model to reach more markets.

[Flagg]

With all due respect sir, There is always a market for locally produced vehicles. In fact, in one of my posts, I quoted a research paper funded by the Japanese regarding the dominance of the local jeepney, tricycle and auv in the local transport industry.You want a copy?...

Jeepney: all surplus parts
Trike: Brand new sidecar?
AUV: multinational support
AMC: self-support only = limited
Yan ang problema point out ni webmeister, sir.

[webmiester]

With all due respect sir, There is always a market for locally produced vehicles. In fact, in one of my posts, I quoted a research paper funded by the Japanese regarding the dominance of the local jeepney, tricycle and auv in the local transport industry.You want a copy?

I hope AMC Hammer will continue producing good vehicles and perhaps improve its technology and someday will work for a PHUV model to reach more markets.

Yes, JDPM, I would like a copy. I think I sent you a request before. pls send it at webmiesterph*yahoo.com (dont interchange the "ie"). From what Ive seen on another post, the paper seems very nice.

AS I understand, the paper tackles the dominance of the local jeepney, tricycles, and AUV... unfortunately, the locals (mostly using japanese surplus engines), still havent been able to crack any other market well. We do have buses, owner type jeepneys, etc. The AMC Hammer does not qualify as a jeepney, tricycle, and AUV, & as such is not covered by the paper. It looks like a good product, I have no doubt, and im looking forward to having one in the future. But for me to want one is different from saying it will be successful in mass production purposes.

[webmiester]

Ang kalaban pa rin is the availability of a cheap but durable Brand New Engine.

The "everything brand new" label is supposed to be the selling point for the PhUV and the New Anfra

The Hammer doesnt come with a brand new engine,chassis,etc at 650k...If it did, it might cost us 1.2M rin...

This is actually the case of the airconditioned jeepneys of David Motors. The aircon jeepneys are really really nice. If you get them with surplus everything, it'll cost 650k, but with a brand new Isuzu Engine and all, itll cost something like 1.2 Million Pesos.

kaya Im wondering how much a Hammer would cost if they use a brand new Engine and other parts from Isuzu Direct? Their all brand new Hammer would still be a lot cheaper than a Hummer, but would cost something like a Patrol na rin. Kaya a lot of upperclass guys might prefer to get a brand new Patrol na lang so they get complete Nissan services na rin. Also, even with a brand new engine, certain parts like seats and door window mechanisms might still be taken from surplus units.

[webmiester]

About FMC, the information I got is that they are burdened with debts not because of the production of ANfra but because another company (MAZDA)just dropped them like a hot potato aside from other internal problems.

I hope AMC Hammer will continue producing good vehicles and perhaps improve its technology and someday will work for a PHUV model to reach more markets.

Yes, from what I know MAZDA dropped FMC, while FMC had just invested in a new production plant, kaya it meant disaster for them.

The ANFRA was competitive mostly because of its price and quality (brand new quality at a price like that of a surplus). This setup though may have compromised the ANFRA's profitability per unit. Kaya even if they sold so many units of ANFRA, FMC wasnt able to make enough to build their new plant based solely on the ANFRA's sale. This is also the problem many local manufacturers face. They need to keep their prices WAY down in order to be considered by many as sellable, yet when they do it, they dont become very profitable per unit, kaya it becomes hard for them to grow.

Even the largest producer of the Jeepney, Sarao, wasnt able to grow out of their Las Pinas plant, and eventually closed down.

I am very proud and hopeful for the Philippine Automotive Industry, but I think, we need to think of something a bit different from what we've been trying in the past if we want to grow out of these surplus jeepneys, tricycles, and AUV market. Unfortunately, I don't know what that it is. I am not a genuis, hehe.

[dprox]

Yes, from what I know MAZDA dropped FMC, while FMC had just invested in a new production plant, kaya it meant disaster for them.

To launch the new Ranger in Year 2000, Ford ordered Mazda to abruptly terminate the B200 series (which FMC was assembling for Mazda). Yup, that breach of contract was followed by a bloody court battle, AFAIK. I don't know if the case has been resolved. Financially, bugbog sarado ang FMC.

The ANFRA was competitive mostly because of its price and quality (brand new quality at a price like that of a surplus). This setup though may have compromised the ANFRA's profitability per unit. Kaya even if they sold so many units of ANFRA, FMC wasnt able to make enough to build their new plant based solely on the ANFRA's sale. This is also the problem many local manufacturers face. They need to keep their prices WAY down in order to be considered by many as sellable, yet when they do it, they dont become very profitable per unit, kaya it becomes hard for them to grow.

There's also the issue of engineered obsolescence. Like the PUJ, it seems like the Anfra was meant to be maintained ad infinitum (or maybe it's better to say ad nauseam).

Even the largest producer of the Jeepney, Sarao, wasnt able to grow out of their Las Pinas plant, and eventually closed down.

One of the reasons Sarao closed down was obsolescence vis-a-vis competition. But there was also a stubbornness over the product. They fell in love with it too much to improve on it.

I am very proud and hopeful for the Philippine Automotive Industry, but I think, we need to think of something a bit different from what we've been trying in the past if we want to grow out of these surplus jeepneys, tricycles, and AUV market. Unfortunately, I don't know what that it is. I am not a genuis, hehe.

Sometimes, the absence of genius can be offset by the mutually respectful cooperation of persons who, being of average intelligence, strive for excellence in their respective fields of competence.

If there are Tsikoteers out there who agree with this, please PM me.

[jpdm]

I am very proud and hopeful for the Philippine Automotive Industry, but I think, we need to think of something a bit different from what we've been trying in the past if we want to grow out of these surplus jeepneys, tricycles, and AUV market. Unfortunately, I don't know what that it is. I am not a genuis, hehe.

Grow out from what? Specify sir. Please let me know what you mean by these words.

Anyway, thats why there is the PHUV project sir. The Tsikot PHUV. The Anfra PHUV. AMC Hammer siguro. The point here is that this market segment is our strength. The market even of the "foreign dominated, profit-oriented, oligarchs-infested do-nothing for the country" local vehicle industry gets its bread and butter from the AUV, utility, commercial vehicle segment.

The affordable tricycle (aka. tuktuk etc.) is a uniquely Asian vehicle and it serves the narrow , side streets of Asia specially the Philippines.

Hirap minsan kasi sa ibang Pinoy kung ano trend sa Europa, US, Western countries yun ang dapat gayahin. Bibiliya ng development ang Eurocentric ideas.

Kultura natin ang Jeepney, AUV, tricycle we have to live we it. Ang importante lang dapat ma-improve ang technology ng mga sasakyan na ito at ma-maximize ang benefits nating mga Pinoy mula sa mga ito at hindi ang mga dayuhan lamang ang laging nagbebenepisyo.

[webmiester]

Grow out from what? Specify sir. Please let me know what you mean by these words.

I was very much impressed watching the Korean channel when a lot of their companies were presenting and were saying slogans like "We will conquer the world!"...

And its true, Korean appliances LG and samsung, Korean cars Kia, Hyundai, and even Korean food and television programs were once considered below-par. Now they are found all over the world and are seriously competing with Japanese and American products.

What I have seen with these "We will conquer the world" philosophy, which we've also seen among Japanese and now Chinese industries is that they did not just survive - they even expanded and became world famous precisely because their goal was not just to "survive" but rather, "to conquer the world."

Many times, we tend to lack this sort of "goal" found in these other oriental cultures. Our streets were built small with small canal systems, not designed for a bigger future population. Our government officials only plan to win the next elections, not really to have long term development goals. Many of our OFW's dont have long term savings and investments even when they're earning a considerable amount. Our industries strive only to survive the domestic market, and not to conquer the world.

Our tricycles, Jeepneys and AUVs might be suffering from this shortsightedness too. They have had limited success in the domestic market, and their exports haven't been too impressive. Yes, we do export jeepneys but not to the point where they are highly visible in other countries. Most jeepneys are exported for museum or theme park like use, not really for the mass transport systems of that country. (although I heard Cambodia and Nigeria were studying it for their use)

Jeepneys, Tricycles, and AUVs became part of our culture only quite recently. They were not around during the spanish era, for instance. AUV's were only invented in the 1970's, etc... It isnt impossible for us to think of something different which can "conquer the world too" and make it part of our culture. Yes, the AUV's came very close with its Revo/Adventure cousins in Taiwan, and Indonesia, and so far is our closest bet to achieving this... Our goal shouldnt just be to make our industry "survive" but rather to make it "conquer the world" as well.

We've been trying hard for decades to make a brand new vehicle that will make a really really good ending for us. Right now, the results have been a bit disappointing with the Anfra becoming out of business, and the the many assemblers of the past - Atendido, Zebra, Panther, etc, all disappearing at one time or the other.

What I meant by being able to grow out of the Jeepneys, Tricycles, and AUV is that If we continue to use the same tactics we have been doing before, chances are we will come up with the same results. If we really want to "conquer the world" we might need something more original, than making a new body with the same old chassis and engine type, and smacking in some imported stock lights of another vehicle to match it, etc...

Im afraid we will keep coming out with the same results because we keep trying the same formula over and over again. Only that different guys try it at different times.

We might need something more radical than the usual jeepneys, tricycles, or AUV, to ensure the survival of our industry. We might need something that will not just be able to make the industry survive but rather give it the possibility of universal conquest.

If we keep making our culture an excuse not to develop something different, it may limit what we can do and keep us from making vehicles outside those we are accustomed to. As I said, these vehicles only became part of our culture quite recently, and if we are able to popularize something else, it can be embraced by our culture as well.

Now, i dont know what this "new" thing should be, If I did I may have invested in making it. I hope I dont offend anyone with these statements. Im not blaming anyone for these observations. Im just saying that's how I see it. The PhUV might be it... I wouldnt know just yet.

[ehnriko]

I totally agree with your statement webmeister!...

In other words... for as long as pinoys keep targetting the moon... we'll end up not hitting anything at all.

It's time to be clear with our targets... if we set our sights higher... like the stars... then chances are - should we fail... we'll be hitting the moon... and if we overshoot... we'll hit galaxies...

Surpassing ones standards is the key to really break free.

You should play advocate for this cause.

[jpdm]

Thanks for the clarification sir webmiester.Indeed you are correct.

just a few years ago, a wrote an article (though unpublished) regarding why the Philippines has lagged behind in terms of economic development in the dynamic Asia-Pacific region. And it has something to do with the failure of the Philippine State since independence (except during Quirino, Magsaysay and Garcia regimes) to chart a definite development path FOR THE PHILIPPINES. We were already no.2 then in Asia because of the commitment of the three presidents to pursue ISI (Import-substitution industrialization). Their policies in fact, made us the 2nd most industrialized country in Asia. Unfortunately, Macapagal threw a monkey wrench on our growth engine. By the time of Marcos, as everybody in Asia notably Korea and Singapore, pursued massive industrialization, Marcos' 11 major industrial projects failed to materialize because of corruption and the SAP (Structural Adjustment Program).
Cory, Ramos, Estrada and Arroyo never pursued a definite development paradigm. In fact their regimes mark the implementation of the so-called neoclassical globalization paradigm -- privatization, liberalization and deregulation. These policies effectively took away the shield that protects whatever is left of our moribund local industry.

As a matter of fact, NSO reported the successive declines recorded by the crucial philippine industrial sector plus the overnight transformation of the country from a net exporter of agri products to net importer.

Anyway, we lack the so-called DEVELOPMENTAL STATE -- a State which commits itself to transform the country into a NIC (Newly Industrialized Country) just like what Korea (Chaebol-state-Korea, Inc.), Taiwan (Sun Yat Sen-Kuomintang), Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew-Temasek) and Japan (Zaibatsu-Japan Inc.-MITI) did.

The neoclassical paradigm (a.k.a. walang pakialam ang gobyerno natin kundi protektahan ang mga foreign investors, at maningil ng taxes sa local investors. May tax perks ang FDIs pero pinoy enterprise pinuputakte ng taxes at fees) just backfired on us -- and one reason is the utter lack of nationalism among the Filipino people (public and the state).

Lack of nationalism resulted to a lack of a national vision and its evident with our low productivity and commitment to help local industries.

All developments must start from scratch and it is the role of the state and its people to build the capacity of our local entrepreneurs.

[dprox]

... Yes, we do export jeepneys but not to the point where they are highly visible in other countries. Most jeepneys are exported for museum or theme park like use, not really for the mass transport systems of that country. (although I heard Cambodia and Nigeria were studying it for their use)

Hi webmiester. As early as 2004, there was talk of exporting 4000 units of PUJ, targetting Papua New Guinea, with Guam, India and Vietnam. In January 2006, the PUJ began operating as a Public Motor Vehicle (PMV) in Port Moresby, PNG. I don't really know what happened next. Some surviving PUJ assemblers might be raking it in ... quietly. Let's hope they make enough profits to grow a bit.

We might need something more radical than the usual jeepneys, tricycles, or AUV, to ensure the survival of our industry. We might need something that will not just be able to make the industry survive but rather give it the possibility of universal conquest.

If we keep making our culture an excuse not to develop something different, it may limit what we can do and keep us from making vehicles outside those we are accustomed to. As I said, these vehicles only became part of our culture quite recently, and if we are able to popularize something else, it can be embraced by our culture as well.

Now, i dont know what this "new" thing should be, If I did I may have invested in making it. I hope I dont offend anyone with these statements. Im not blaming anyone for these observations. Im just saying that's how I see it. The PhUV might be it... I wouldnt know just yet.

It's good to know your vision is just a little bit ahead of most of the enthusiasts in this Design Forum. This "new" thing is what we ourselves have been trying to crack. What is clear is while we should not stop thinking big, we need take what may appear to be humiliating baby-steps before we can hit the big leagues.

If it's any consolation, ageing Japan appears headed to oblivion, with a Total Fertility Rate of 1.23 children/woman. To offset this, Japan is resorting to robotics and AI as an alternative to manpower (and social relations). Check out Wiki for its demographic situation.

Korea might not be far behind with a TFR of 1.28 children/woman. The difference is that instead of replacing themselves with robots, the Koreans are actually migrating to other countries, setting up tight communities as power bases as they go along.

I don't think Japan or Korea will bend over backward to substantially assist our industries. Anyway, it's China that is the more serious contender. And it seems we have no alternative but to work with China.
.

[dprox]

... Anyway, we lack the so-called DEVELOPMENTAL STATE -- a State which commits itself to transform the country into a NIC (Newly Industrialized Country) just like what Korea (Chaebol-state-Korea, Inc.), Taiwan (Sun Yat Sen-Kuomintang), Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew-Temasek) and Japan (Zaibatsu-Japan Inc.-MITI) did.

The neoclassical paradigm (a.k.a. walang pakialam ang gobyerno natin kundi protektahan ang mga foreign investors, at maningil ng taxes sa local investors. May tax perks ang FDIs pero pinoy enterprise pinuputakte ng taxes at fees) just backfired on us -- and one reason is the utter lack of nationalism among the Filipino people (public and the state).

Lack of nationalism resulted to a lack of a national vision and its evident with our low productivity and commitment to help local industries.

All developments must start from scratch and it is the role of the state and its people to build the capacity of our local entrepreneurs.

Nice piece of history, jpdm. I think the "overhelpfulness" of the State during 21 years of Martial Law actually intimidated and even stunted the sense of initiative and entrepreneurship among our people. And cronyism only made it worse.

Ideally, in a constitutional democracy, the engine of the economy is private enterprise, not government. In a private enterprise economy, Government exists merely to orient and facilitate what the citizens want to do. Up to now we find ourselves on one hand having to re-awaken private initative, and on the other, to re-educate government to play the role of an effective facilitator. The lack of spirit of private initiative tempts government to "take charge" and dictate how things ought to be.

From where I stand I see at least three complicating factors that hinder healthy private enterprise in the Philippines.

First: wealth and opportunities are not justly distributed. This is what you refer to as an oligarchic structure that explains the high poverty rate and keeps Philippine society perpetually at the brink of revolution. In this case, the role of government should be to seek creative win-win solutions so as to make the playing field more equitable.

Second: the vainglorious culture of politicians, who think that they should be adulated as venerable leaders, when all that is really expected of them is to be acknowledged as good public SERVANTS. I like to use the term "facilitator" - which is what they should be doing, ie, making it easier for the citizens to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. At present, the pervasive "pabling servant complex" is a terrible obstacle to others who should be leaders in their own private spheres.

Third: greed that leads to cutthroat competiton, instead of respectful and magnanimous cooperation in as many areas where cooperation is applicable. We are not the only ones who seek to make a living. We should allow even our so-called 'competitors' a chance to make decent profits. Live and let live! Sport laang, ika nga.

[SIZE="1"]I'll pause here. Medyo OT na tayo. We need to start a new thread for strategic analyses of industry-related issues. Abangan.[/SIZE]

[redorange]

Hi webmiester. As early as 2004, there was talk of exporting 4000 units of PUJ, targetting Papua New Guinea, with Guam, India and Vietnam. In January 2006, the PUJ began operating as a Public Motor Vehicle (PMV) in Port Moresby, PNG. I don't really know what happened next. Some surviving PUJ assemblers might be raking it in ... quietly. Let's hope they make enough profits to grow a bit.

I know there was a plan to export the PUJ to New Guinea and parts of Africa but I have never heard that Guam was part of the plan. It would be hard to export it to Guam as it would be required to pass US DOT crash certification and EPA emissions regulations as Guam is a US territory. If the PUJ does pass those test it still wouldn't sell more than a handful as most people in Guam do not use public transportation because most homes have more cars than people.

[jappy]

ano na balita dito?
meron na ba ung PhUV?

[webmiester]

Cory, Ramos, Estrada and Arroyo never pursued a definite development paradigm. In fact their regimes mark the implementation of the so-called neoclassical globalization paradigm -- privatization, liberalization and deregulation. These policies effectively took away the shield that protects whatever is left of our moribund local industry.

Actually Ramos came up with the Philippines 2000 program, which was aimed at making the Philippines a NIC. However, many of the program appears more to look like a propaganda rather than an actual program since the graft and coruption was very prevalent especially during investigations after his term, like with overpriced highways, the clark expo filipino, and pia amari scandal.

Its very sad... but not hopeless

We all know the cause of the problem, but we cant find the solution together.

[dprox]

Actually Ramos came up with the Philippines 2000 program, which was aimed at making the Philippines a NIC. However, many of the program appears more to look like a propaganda rather than an actual program since the graft and coruption was very prevalent especially during investigations after his term, like with overpriced highways, the clark expo filipino, and pia amari scandal.

Its very sad... but not hopeless

We all know the cause of the problem, but we cant find the solution together.

OT: You forgot Fort Bonifacio. :Off-Topic2:

[webmiester]

During WW2 and right after, the Japanese valued their scientists so much that they didnt let them go to war and they were treated as VIPs. It was the dream of many Japanese kids to become a scientist.

In the Philippines, the kids' dreams are mostly to become famous either by showbiz, or by basketball. Kaya even our politicians are mostly porma lang, and we are in dire shortage of scientists and people who can really develop this industry...

[webmiester]

Check out the HUMBUG!!! Its so cute! I would like something a little smaller than a Patrol frame, and this is really cute

the full description is here:
http://www.kitcarmag.com/featuredveh...ica/index.html