What Are You Thinking About?

[travajante]

Thanks for your concern. Wow 2005 member, it makes me happy when pioneer members are posting

I scheduled for an online consult na with a pulmonologist. Re the RT PCR I am having second thoughts nga, kasi what if someone is positive (I hope to God not) It will be the same, home quarantine (we are wearing masks na here at home) What I don't want is for them to force any of us into an isolation facility. I live with seniors pa naman I am really praying it's not covid because she has not been out since March 2020 and we don't eat together naman, rare for us to be in one room together for more than 15 mins

RT PCR, the gold standard they say...isn't really golden. I've seen, heard & known of too many who've gotten false positive results only to be confirmed negative after 1 or multiple retests. Errors happen in handling. That's not the lone bad thing...there's tracing. DoH & LGUs are alerted & mobilized to quickly be at the positive's doorstep, nothing wrong with that if the person's a true positive.
Here's a suggestion, try searching for a lab that carries Roche Elecsys that's not tied to any of the monitoring agencies. Let this procedure be your preRT PCR option. What's unique is it tells an approximate infection timeline of those found positive. So far, empirical relative observations of the results we've seen have always been consistent w/ the +/- of respective succeeding RT PCR tests taken. This should help curb your anxiety.

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[_Cathy_]

^For sure home mgmt yan unless emergency. Hospitals are full. But I doubt the doctor can diagnose without blood tests, Xrays, etc...

^on another note, the real pioneers were the ones na inabutan ko. Sina chieffy, doc otep, afrasay, glenster, at marami pang iba.[emoji4]


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Naabutan ko din sila but only for a few mos (except doc otep and afrasay who were active longer)

With doctors, they have to have blood work done. If you want to consult with a doctor, you might want to try hi-precision diag. They have doctors there too. Call first.

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Yes Last friday my Mom and second MOm had online check up for hypertension, both good naman but the cardio said we can postpone the blood works, ecg and 2d echo for both of them since we are not comfortable pa and too many cases, so I cancelled muna with hi precision. We are scared na baka naman yung med tech asymptomatic din? But this time we have no choice. I paid na and waiting for the consult with the pulmonologist e it's 7:30 pm na wala pa rin ako queue It's a good thing my second Mom says she feels okay except for the sore throat na makati. Weird kasi when I touch her hindi naman mainit yung skin, pero yun nga above 37 parati

Before this pandemic happened, whenever she feels something, I would message Dr Cutie na then same day or next day nasa doctor na kami It's a good thing doctors now accept hi precision, yung cardio dati he only accepts if from the hospital where he does clinic, but that changed now. I wonder how rich the owners of HP are hehe. Si Dr APS, he is one of the mgt sa hospital pero siya pa nagsasabi sa amin to go HP and that's they results we give him hehe

[_Cathy_]

RT PCR, the gold standard they say...isn't really golden. I've seen, heard & known of too many who've gotten false positive results only to be confirmed negative after 1 or multiple retests. Errors happen in handling. That's not the lone bad thing...there's tracing. DoH & LGUs are alerted & mobilized to quickly be at the positive's doorstep, nothing wrong with that if the person's a true positive.
Here's a suggestion, try searching for a lab that carries Roche Elecsys that's not tied to any of the monitoring agencies. Let this procedure be your preRT PCR option. What's unique is it tells an approximate infection timeline of those found positive. So far, empirical relative observations of the results we've seen have always been consistent w/ the +/- of respective succeeding RT PCR tests taken. This should help curb your anxiety.

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I read the post of MissX nga na she had symptoms too, it's highly likely that was covid kasi nawalan ng sense of smell and taste e. I have the same concern as her din, baka magkalayo layo pa kami. Also, kung positive, home management din naman. Kaya pala maraming ayaw pa swab no? But anyway I will do what the doctor tells me, malamang we need bloodworks and xray nga and could be swab nga

I don't know much labs that do swab testing, I contacted yung ni recommend ni papa jamba pero di na nagreply, it's so much cheaper kasi than where I had my test done before. Baka mag TMC din kami pero sana naman hindi asymptomatic mga nagte test sa kanila since they have so many people they deal with on a daily basis

[dr. d]

RT PCR, the gold standard they say...isn't really golden. I've seen, heard & known of too many who've gotten false positive results only to be confirmed negative after 1 or multiple retests. Errors happen in handling. That's not the lone bad thing...there's tracing. DoH & LGUs are alerted & mobilized to quickly be at the positive's doorstep, nothing wrong with that if the person's a true positive.
Here's a suggestion, try searching for a lab that carries Roche Elecsys that's not tied to any of the monitoring agencies. Let this procedure be your preRT PCR option. What's unique is it tells an approximate infection timeline of those found positive. So far, empirical relative observations of the results we've seen have always been consistent w/ the +/- of respective succeeding RT PCR tests taken. This should help curb your anxiety.

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isn't roche's elecsys an antibody test?
haven't the pgh folks "discredited" the use of antibody testing for anything beyond antibody testing?
apologies for sounding... blunt.

my thoughts on howso,
our immune systems do not all react in exactly the same manner.

[uls]

antibody test is backward looking

it tells only you if you already got infected (IGM positive if you got infected about a week ago, IGG positive if you got infected about a month or more ago)

it won't tell you if you have the virus in your nose/throat right now -- yan ang trabaho ng swab PCR

pwede din rapid antigen test

[travajante]

isn't roche's elecsys an antibody test?
haven't the pgh folks "discredited" the use of antibody testing for anything beyond antibody testing?

It's that but different from most & done by their Elecsys equipment. Once found +, they proceed w/ the IgG/IgM test using the same blood sample they took.
Elecsys(R) Anti-SARS-CoV-2



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[bloowolf]

I think Elecsys will be more valuable in measuring the immunoassay of covid antibodies in response to conventional vaccinations rather than as a diagnostic tool. I suspect immune response to conventional vaccines will not be long lasting given that people surviving an infection don’t acquire a longer lasting immunity so, a test like this can determine when the the best time for a booster can be given.
This is just an amateur opinion for the sake of discussion.


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[uls]

no matter what equipment is used, antibody test is backward looking

you won't develop antibodies if you only got infected a few days ago

but a swab can pick up the virus

[dr. d]

It's that but different from most & done by their Elecsys equipment. Once found +, they proceed w/ the IgG/IgM test using the same blood sample they took.
Elecsys(R) Anti-SARS-CoV-2



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in my opinion,
it's a product flyer.
based on it,
it presents what they did, in such a way that the reader may come to the company-desired conclusion.
it did not specifically say, "this is what our test will do for you".
also, the number of test-persons is "not that large".
bottom line, the test has its uses. but it needs a specialist for proper interpretation.
it is not an over-the-counter test like a pregnancy test; it is a prescription-only test, because the result can be twisted to fit certain interests.

tip: if the piece shows curves like what the quoted literature above shows,
it means there is significant overlap in the results from the test subjects (humen). the curves were constructed, based on many inputs coming together to form an average. as such, the numbers it generates (the days) is an average and not an absolute.

medical students and trainees have a subject entitled " how to critique medical literature".

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I think Elecsys will be more valuable in measuring the immunoassay of covid antibodies in response to conventional vaccinations rather than as a diagnostic tool. I suspect immune response to conventional vaccines will not be long lasting given that people surviving an infection don’t acquire a longer lasting immunity so, a test like this can determine when the the best time for a booster can be given.
This is just an amateur opinion for the sake of discussion.


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hey!
i agree.

[Papajamba]

I read the post of MissX nga na she had symptoms too, it's highly likely that was covid kasi nawalan ng sense of smell and taste e. I have the same concern as her din, baka magkalayo layo pa kami. Also, kung positive, home management din naman. Kaya pala maraming ayaw pa swab no? But anyway I will do what the doctor tells me, malamang we need bloodworks and xray nga and could be swab nga

I don't know much labs that do swab testing, I contacted yung ni recommend ni papa jamba pero di na nagreply, it's so much cheaper kasi than where I had my test done before. Baka mag TMC din kami pero sana naman hindi asymptomatic mga nagte test sa kanila since they have so many people they deal with on a daily basis

Baka super dami nilang patients now for swab.
If you want a cheap drive-thru pcr swab, I’d highly recommend Red Cross’s saliva pcr swab. 2k lang sya compared to others’ 4-5k. Need to do appointment and no walk-in. 1 site is nasa bus bay ng SM Megamall.
Philippine Red Cross | Humanitarian Organization in the Philippines

It's that but different from most & done by their Elecsys equipment. Once found +, they proceed w/ the IgG/IgM test using the same blood sample they took.
Elecsys(R) Anti-SARS-CoV-2

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ECLIA ang machine ng Roche, which is best for patient’s who recovered. Best is 14 days after recovery iirc


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[travajante]

in my opinion,
it's a product flyer.
based on it,
it presents what they did, in such a way that the reader may come to the company-desired conclusion.
it did not specifically say, "this is what our test will do for you".
also, the number of test-persons is "not that large".
bottom line, the test has its uses. but it needs a specialist for proper interpretation.
it is not an over-the-counter test like a pregnancy test; it is a prescription-only test, because the result can be twisted to fit certain interests.

tip: if the piece shows curves like what the quoted literature above shows,
it means there is significant overlap in the results from the test subjects (humen). the curves were constructed, based on many inputs coming together to form an average. as such, the numbers it generates (the days) is an average and not an absolute.

medical students and trainees have a subject entitled " how to critique medical literature".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



hey!
i agree.

Roche and Siemens COVID-19 antibody tests shine in FDA accuracy roundup | MedTech Dive
Coincidence or luck & perhaps an insignificant sample, I know of 2 different households who all swabbed(travel req) negative except for the 1 least likely from each....both of the 'positives' stayed strictly home weeks prior to departure/RT PCR dates). None of them had symptoms. To confirm the results, they tried the Roche Elecsys before a 2nd RT PCR...negative.
Reswabs came negative. Upon arrival at respective destinations, 2nd reswab= all NEGATIVE. Imagine the panic, the chaos, the concern, the prayers....I deemed it as Lord's teasing. He does that a lot.[emoji120]
Am I the only 1 wondering about the accuracy of the touted gold standard? Not saying it's not the most ideal in detecting the presence of the virus, but it seems these tests just can't be relied upon nor accepted for the symptomless w/o repeat testing.[emoji848]
Again, I'm way off my field. I leave it up to the experts here to bring my faith back into the RT PCR process. Those are just 2 cited cases from families close. What fraction in our daily stats would you guys think are false?[emoji848]

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[dr. d]

contrary to public perception,
interpreting covid test results, antigen or antibody, is not an easy black-and-white thing.
while it may seem to be like that,
it certainly is not.
experts have to understand the science behind the test.
only then can they make logic of the result the machines are showing them.

about your two examples,
i can think of "window period".
we can talk more logically about it, if we were in possession of more facts.
we learned a whole practical lot about window period during the decade of hepatitis B. well, at least, i did. heh heh.
it became a byword in the lectures circles, because it was giving us headaches in the practice.
it is really different, seeing it walking around in your clinic, and not just hiding in some paragraphs inside a textbook.
sabi nga ng professor namin, "maraming yumaman dahil sa bintanang 'yan".

basically,
window period is that interval of time when the virus load is so low as to be undetectable, and the blood antibody level is also very low as to also be undetectable, using the test methods used.
the problem arises because "undetectable" does not mean "negative" or "zero".
"undetectable" means, the amount is so miniscule, as to cause your machine to say "0".

tongue in cheek,
"the test is un-reliable because i do not like the result."

and that link on roche and siemens,
the article just says that their products are very good at detecting anti-covid antibodies.
the article says nothing about how it can be used to determine the presence of covid antigens, i.e., virus particles.


btw,
one does not usually confirm a test by re-testing on a more inferior machine, or on a machine that measures something else.

[bloowolf]

contrary to public perception,
interpreting covid test results, antigen or antibody, is not an easy black-and-white thing.
while it may seem to be like that,
it certainly is not.
experts have to understand the science behind the test.
only then can they make logic of the result the machines are showing them.

about your two examples,
i can think of "window period".
we can talk more logically about it, if we were in possession of more facts.
we learned a whole practical lot about window period during the decade of hepatitis B. well, at least, i did. heh heh.
it became a byword in the lectures circles, because it was giving us headaches in the practice.
it is really different, seeing it walking around in your clinic, and not just hiding in some paragraphs inside a textbook.
sabi nga ng professor namin, "maraming yumaman dahil sa bintanang 'yan".

basically,
window period is that interval of time when the virus load is so low as to be undetectable, and the blood antibody level is also very low as to also be undetectable, using the test methods used.
the problem arises because "undetectable" does not mean "negative" or "zero".
"undetectable" means, the amount is so miniscule, as to cause your machine to say "0".

tongue in cheek,
"the test is un-reliable because i do not like the result."

and that link on roche and siemens,
the article just says that their products are very good at detecting anti-covid antibodies.
the article says nothing about how it can be used to determine the presence of covid antigens, i.e., virus particles.


btw,
one does not usually confirm a test by re-testing on a more inferior machine, or on a machine that measures something else.

Mahirap ka pala bentahan doc, hehe.
My hs batch has a lot of doctors & our viber group is abuzz with discussions related to covid. Links, videos, testimonials, conspiracy theories, you name it. “Experts” also came out, sounding really technical & convincing. But one thing I noticed, hardly any doctor in our v group would weigh in because:
-they are not the experts. Contrary to what people think, doctors don’t know everything. They are experts in their chosen field like Neuro Surgery, for example but, accept results from the other experts when it comes to concerns beyond that they know. I surmise it is because they consider it unethical.
-they don’t have time to explain something they know will lead to a lenthy discussion which has no end, like Ivermectin. As one doctor there, when asked what his opinion is, answered “you are free to use this if you wish but I will not recommend it until I’m sure what its pros & cons are” (wording a little different).
-they have better things to do, like save patients. The web is filled to the brim with the subject Covid & all related that that anyone can pluck it out. This was referred to as “Dr Google”.
-everyone comes out with a gimmik. Supplements, remedies,devices. But like you said. Those are not black & white, the gray area is so wide. You have to know the science behind those things in order to know whether this remedy or gadget will make sense or not.


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[uls]

contrary to public perception,
interpreting covid test results, antigen or antibody, is not an easy black-and-white thing.
while it may seem to be like that,
it certainly is not.
experts have to understand the science behind the test.
only then can they make logic of the result the machines are showing them.

about your two examples,
i can think of "window period".
we can talk more logically about it, if we were in possession of more facts.
we learned a whole practical lot about window period during the decade of hepatitis B. well, at least, i did. heh heh.
it became a byword in the lectures circles, because it was giving us headaches in the practice.
it is really different, seeing it walking around in your clinic, and not just hiding in some paragraphs inside a textbook.
sabi nga ng professor namin, "maraming yumaman dahil sa bintanang 'yan".

basically,
window period is that interval of time when the virus load is so low as to be undetectable, and the blood antibody level is also very low as to also be undetectable, using the test methods used.
the problem arises because "undetectable" does not mean "negative" or "zero".
"undetectable" means, the amount is so miniscule, as to cause your machine to say "0".

tongue in cheek,
"the test is un-reliable because i do not like the result."

and that link on roche and siemens,
the article just says that their products are very good at detecting anti-covid antibodies.
the article says nothing about how it can be used to determine the presence of covid antigens, i.e., virus particles.


btw,
one does not usually confirm a test by re-testing on a more inferior machine, or on a machine that measures something else.

yes doc pag nag positive sa PCR pero negative sa antibody test it means the body hasn't produced antibodies yet

mas tamang explanation yan kesa sasabihin false positive ung PCR

[travajante]

Mahirap ka pala bentahan doc, hehe.
My hs batch has a lot of doctors & our viber group is abuzz with discussions related to covid. Links, videos, testimonials, conspiracy theories, you name it. “Experts” also came out, sounding really technical & convincing. But one thing I noticed, hardly any doctor in our v group would weigh in because:
-they are not the experts. Contrary to what people think, doctors don’t know everything. They are experts in their chosen field like Neuro Surgery, for example but, accept results from the other experts when it comes to concerns beyond that they know. I surmise it is because they consider it unethical.
-they don’t have time to explain something they know will lead to a lenthy discussion which has no end, like Ivermectin. As one doctor there, when asked what his opinion is, answered “you are free to use this if you wish but I will not recommend it until I’m sure what its pros & cons are” (wording a little different).
-they have better things to do, like save patients. The web is filled to the brim with the subject Covid & all related that that anyone can pluck it out. This was referred to as “Dr Google”.
-everyone comes out with a gimmik. Supplements, remedies,devices. But like you said. Those are not black & white, the gray area is so wide. You have to know the science behind those things in order to know whether this remedy or gadget will make sense or not.


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yes doc pag nag positive sa PCR pero negative sa antibody test it means the body hasn't produced antibodies yet

mas tamang explanation yan kesa sasabihin false positive ung PCR

In those 2 cases, the 'positives' went thru 2 more RT PCR tests, all within 48hrs of the 1st failed PCR.... 1 w/in the required window prior to departure, 1 upon arrival at their respective destinations. Both confirmed them negative. They're both well & have remained so.[emoji120] Their respective family members all tested good, too.
The Roche Elecsys(takes only a coupla hours) they took wasn't to prove PCR wrong, but more as a deciding aid whether to go thru a reswab or not(& just be left behind).
Not saying antibody tests are better than RT PCR. Just wondering where & why the inconsistency.

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[uls]

pcr test is not a yes or no test

a machine amplifies viral particles until they are detectable (amplification cycles)

pwede 20 to 40 cycles

kung 20 cycles palang meron na that's a strong positive (high viral load)

if it takes 40 cycles wala pa that's neg

it depends on the lab ano ang cut off nila

pwede 30 cycles wala pa pero 40 cycles meron

if the lab cuts off at 30 cycles then they'll put negative sa result

if it's 40 cycles it's positive

if you need more that 40 amplification cycles to detect viral particles there's very very little virus

the lab's decision to put + or - can affect someone's life

[uls]

i recall there was an issue nga where someone from PH tested + but - in Taiwan

Taiwan wanted to know the cycle threshold used by the PH lab

baka kasi 40 cycles sa PH, 30 cycles sa Taiwan

[travajante]

pcr test is not a yes or no test

a machine amplifies viral particles until they are detectable (amplification cycles)

pwede 20 to 40 cycles

kung 20 cycles palang meron na that's a strong positive (high viral load)

if it takes 40 cycles wala pa that's neg

it depends on the lab ano ang cut off nila

pwede 30 cycles wala pa pero 40 cycles meron

if the lab cuts off at 30 cycles then they'll put negative sa result

if it's 40 cycles it's positive

if you need more that 40 amplification cycles to detect viral particles there's very very little virus

the lab's decision to put + or - can affect someone's life

Yeah, dug into that. Both pre-departure reswabs(negative) were from the same lab that initially said +. Same amp cycles, different results. Their 3rd PCR, at 2 different destinations reconfirmed them good.
Again, not saying the science is wrong...but it's not perfect. Nothing ever is....unless it's Him[emoji121].

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[uls]

this is the first viral disease that uses PCR as a diagnostic tool

(sa HIV, PCR is only used to check viral load)

i've read lots of criticism about it

like PCR is too sensitive you end up declaring perfectly heathy people sick

i get your point Sir Trav

La tayo magagawa we now live under this medical/scientific "tyranny" where a perfectly healthy you can be forced to isolate coz they detected some viral RNA in your nose/throat

[bloowolf]

In those 2 cases, the 'positives' went thru 2 more RT PCR tests, all within 48hrs of the 1st failed PCR.... 1 w/in the required window prior to departure, 1 upon arrival at their respective destinations. Both confirmed them negative. They're both well & have remained so.[emoji120] Their respective family members all tested good, too.
The Roche Elecsys(takes only a coupla hours) they took wasn't to prove PCR wrong, but more as a deciding aid whether to go thru a reswab or not(& just be left behind).
Not saying antibody tests>RT PCR. Just wondering where & why the inconsistency.

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Well, considering the complexity of viruses, those test are not infallible. And when they said the PCR is 92-95% effective, it could be under controlled conditions or specimens may have been limited. But now, with the millions of PCR tests done, I bet the 92% doesn’t apply anymore. Dr.d’s explanation is spot on. Just imagine, a virus is so small & maybe so scarce that the swab tip wasn’t able to pick it up. & fyi, rt-pcr is not limited to viruses, they have other applications, even in performance drug tests & I heard they are the most accurate. None of us are experts & our understanding of this is limited so it is but natural that we question it. May disclaimer din sa mga test. Results interpreted are only for that day the swab was made. After that, pag alis mo sa testing center, you don’t know if you acquired the virus or not. So many uncertainties nowadays.


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