Not everything in the Bible is true...

**oldblue** · September 26th, 2006 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by kinyo

Because those atheists or unbelievers do good, do charity works, don't commit crimes, etc. should be good enough for entry to heaven.

You don't think so? Because that is not what the bible says?

I think they will go to heaven, but they will be asked first ... do they now believe in a God?

but they have to shake off that shock first ... the shock of finding out there is indeed life after death

**oldblue** · September 26th, 2006 10:19 PM

uy page 50.

**theveed** · September 26th, 2006 10:27 PM

Just curious, what's life after death called? It's shouldn't be after-life, that's lame coz by definition afterlife is death... So what's afterdeath?

**oldblue** · September 26th, 2006 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by theveed

Just curious, what's life after death called? It's shouldn't be after-life, that's lame coz by definition afterlife is death... So what's afterdeath?

life I: beginning-born;end-death. afterlife: life part II

**kinyo** · September 26th, 2006 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by oldblue

I think they will go to heaven, but they will be asked first ... do they now believe in a God?

but they have to shake off that shock first ... the shock of finding out there is indeed life after death

for a good-natured non-believer, it won't be a shock but a rather pleasant surprise

**Poops** · September 26th, 2006 10:51 PM

Try going over the Apostle's Creed if you're a Catholic. It's quite definitive.

**empy** · September 26th, 2006 11:48 PM

he doesn't even get how irritating his choice of words might be for a 'non-believer'

ako nga, believer ako, pero napa

ako dun.

**Psalm136:2** · September 27th, 2006 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by kinyo

Because those atheists or unbelievers do good, do charity works, don't commit crimes, etc. should be good enough for entry to heaven.

You don't think so? Because that is not what the bible says?

My friend, you missed out my previous posts.
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins." - Isaiah 64:6-7

**oldblue** · September 27th, 2006 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Psalm136:2

My friend, you missed out my previous posts.
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins." - Isaiah 64:6-7

so what does this mean sir *Psalm136:2

**kinyo** · September 27th, 2006 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Psalm136:2

My friend, you missed out my previous posts.
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins." - Isaiah 64:6-7

directly, the verse has nothing to do with being accepted in heaven

indirectly, the verses actually are about how God would restore Israel even if the people have been sinful because they are His children ... so it appears to be an indirect implication that God is capable of accepting sinners (non-believers) simply because they are His children ... afaik, we are all children of God, regardless of religious affiliation (or non-affiliation), whether we like it or not

isn't that good news for everybody?

**Flagg** · September 27th, 2006 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Psalm136:2

Satan is also one of the names of Lucifer, who initiates and encourages the "satan" in us not to do good. Right or wrong?

Right... and wrong.

It's like the word 'menyek.' Isa rin yan sa mga names ni sirs M54 or Glennster (take your pick). :bwahaha:

If you meant 'initiates and encourages' as putting temptations before us, why yes, that's what Lucifer does. Kumbaga, hadlang nga.

Parang yung Lucifer na sir Syuryuken making Angelic threads.

But then, it's what you do with the thread that matters... (Si sir M54 may shrine in the corner)... :evillaugh

**Flagg** · September 27th, 2006 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by oldblue

i believe Satan is free will. If we do god's will over free will, then we are rid of Satan.

Sa tingin ko sir oldblue, mahilig ka sa bondage.

Spanky spanky... :evillaugh

**oldblue** · September 27th, 2006 03:14 AM

hehehe, bear me with *sir flagg

what is it that God always wants us Christians to do?

sacrifice, give up something

now that is opposite of free will. If free will is in effect, we will never sacrifice. and Satan dont want us to sacrifice, he wants us to take to submit to temptations bec. we're free.

**tsupermario** · September 27th, 2006 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by oldblue

what is it that God always wants us Christians to do?

sacrifice, give up something

now that is opposite of free will. If free will is in effect, we will never sacrifice. and Satan dont want us to sacrifice, he wants us to take to submit to temptations bec. we're free.

hindi po ba na if 1 is free, he can choose 1 thing over the other? so if 1 has chosen to make a sacrifice, its an act of free will. it's free will that gives 1 the ability to choose between right or wrong, good or evil.

if God wants Christians to sacrifice, its a positive command but it doesn't negate free will because 1 can choose to obey it or not.

**oldblue** · September 27th, 2006 09:02 AM

I kinda expected it naman that for a man to sacrifice, he must choose it or volunteer for it, hence it sounds like free will.

but from the word itself sacrifice, it's not your first choice or primary choice, talaga. you are compromising your true choice/will.

for example, if our President is asked (take note not ordered) to make a supreme sacrifice to step down from office. of course, no leader will just relinquish his/her post. ang gusto nya talaga complete the term.

another example, Honda Civic 2003 sacrifice sale P150k. If the owner had it his way, he will not sell that at such a bargain price. syempre kung ano yun fair market value dapat. That's the true choice talaga.

now let's go back God, you cannot argue that it is your own free will to follow God's will (to sacrifice). that defies the definition of free will. is it not?

it's the same as invoking your free will to follow another person's free will. if for example God is a person.

I have a question to our bible expert sir *Psalm. where is it in the bible that free will was mentioned? in the OT, there is the 10 commandments of God which alone suggests that there is no such thing as free will. even jesus in the NT never suggested the idea of free will. his message was to love one another, even your enemies. it's another form of order/commandment. with free will, you can choose not love one another and even your enemies pa.

so whoever suggested these so-called thing as "free will" as related to God, I doubt if he's a Christian. hindi kaya na-mix up lang, with movies like Devil's advocate, atheistic views etc. etc

**tsupermario** · September 27th, 2006 09:28 AM

i think the key here is choice. if you had a choice beforehand then there's free will. re the civic owner, he can choose not to sell it. the fact that he sold it for a mere P150k shows that he has exercised his free will.

its different in a situation where a gun was poked at the owner and forced to execute a sale of the car. well, he can choose not to but that would endanger his life. this would be a sufficient reason to negate free will.

**oldblue** · September 27th, 2006 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by tsupermario

i think the key here is choice. if you had a choice beforehand then there's free will. re the civic owner, he can choose not to sell it. the fact that he sold it for a mere P150k shows that he has exercised his free will.

its different in a situation where a gun was poked at the owner and forced to execute a sale of the car. well, he can choose not to but that would endanger his life. this would be a sufficient reason to negate free will.

why do you think sir is the main reason why a car owner chose to "sacrifice" sell his Honda? bec. there are other pressing matters to attend to: owner leaving for abroad, owner needs to pay an immediate loan, time constraints etc etc.. in a sense, it's similar to a gun poked at his head.

**tsupermario** · September 27th, 2006 09:53 AM

in a sense sir maybe. but then it's not entirely the same. the danger in one is more immediate while the other is rather remote.

imho there's no such thing as absolute free will. a person is not in a vacuum that he can do whatever he pleases.

**CoDer** · September 27th, 2006 09:54 AM

Wah!? 50 pages na!

predestination mga kapatid!

**Poops** · September 27th, 2006 10:36 AM

Sana may pari who can moderate this thread..kinda dangerous to go in-depth without one.

In fact, we know nothing relative to an omniscient being who is God so just let Faith step in because it is impossible to understand these 100%.

God's did not spell out His will in detail for each of us (so we really don't know the details, do we?) so choosing between His will and our own (human) will is a bit difficult unless we are in a state where we can hopefully listen and be guided accordingly.

With Faith, we can trust that His will is best for us whom He loves so much (like me as a father would look after my son's interest over mine no matter how naughty he is). So what's the point of insisting on our own personal will if we truly believe and have Faith...His way is the best way the same way I trust my earthly father will guide me (bless his soul).

In most cases, weakness in Faith manifests itself in many ways...and I know this only too well, unfortunately (from personal experience).

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Not everything in the Bible is true...

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