Scam Fuel saving devices old and new

[dvldoc]

Here is a good link I came across it has all the fuel saving devices old and new. You would be amazed how people have brought back many of these old devices as new inventions. They didn't work back then and they don't work now. Even some very crude and backwards and poor attempts at water injection are in here.

Some of the devices will look very familiar to you even though some are 20 and 30 years old people just keep bringing them back to make a few bucks. Some do have minor and I mean minor gains but nothing you would spend money on.

Some of these will look very familar

These were all tested by the EPA in the US.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/reports.htm

[jacorb_88]

dvldoc,

with fast rising price of fuel, you cannot blame people from being skeptic on promises being made by a lot of manufacturers of fuel saving 'gadgets'. with you being one of the manufacturers and i being one of the skeptics, i have to be candid before i spent hard earned money on something i am quite sure of. how does the other water-alcohol injection gadgets in the epa report you provided be different from yours?

i have called speedlab but was not able to talk to technical resource person on the kit and their services.

would the savings on fuel be offset by additional cost of methanol?

what would happen if your tank gets emptied? will it still feed air to the intake?

as i understand, the installation is straight-forward. is there any procedures on how to tune it to get optimum setting for best performance?

assuming for some reason the kit malfunctions due to shelf-life on one part, is there a way to totally deactivate it without disassembling the whole kit?

pardon for the stupid question, will the water not cause rusting on the internal parts?

if this theory dates back wwii, how come the car manufacturers never made this as an OEM considering the cost can get easily be incorporated in their pricing? and it will be a good marketing slogan as well? fuel savings and eco-friendlier car... it'll be a good catch.

did you offer your gadget for epa testing? if so, can you share the results similar to what you have provided for other gadgets as well. if not, why so?

philippines has one of the worst diesel supplies which contributes to not-so-pleasant exhausts. more than fuel savings, i would like my ride to be more eco-friendly. so, i am really considering this on my ride. your help will be highly appreciated.

[ghosthunter]

as i understand, the installation is straight-forward. is there any procedures on how to tune it to get optimum setting for best performance?

well, a dyno tuning session to find which nozzle size works best for your engine would do the trick.

assuming for some reason the kit malfunctions due to shelf-life on one part, is there a way to totally deactivate it without disassembling the whole kit?

You can have a switch fitted to turn off the system. I am planning to have such a switch installed. Currently, I disable the system via removing the fuse.


The injection system works well with turbo charged engines (gasoline or diesel). But for N/A engines, the gains are much lower.

[dvldoc]

dvldoc,

with fast rising price of fuel, you cannot blame people from being skeptic on promises being made by a lot of manufacturers of fuel saving 'gadgets'. with you being one of the manufacturers and i being one of the skeptics, i have to be candid before i spent hard earned money on something i am quite sure of. how does the other water-alcohol injection gadgets in the epa report you provided be different from yours?

i have called speedlab but was not able to talk to technical resource person on the kit and their services.

would the savings on fuel be offset by additional cost of methanol?

what would happen if your tank gets emptied? will it still feed air to the intake?

as i understand, the installation is straight-forward. is there any procedures on how to tune it to get optimum setting for best performance?

assuming for some reason the kit malfunctions due to shelf-life on one part, is there a way to totally deactivate it without disassembling the whole kit?

pardon for the stupid question, will the water not cause rusting on the internal parts?

if this theory dates back wwii, how come the car manufacturers never made this as an OEM considering the cost can get easily be incorporated in their pricing? and it will be a good marketing slogan as well? fuel savings and eco-friendlier car... it'll be a good catch.

did you offer your gadget for epa testing? if so, can you share the results similar to what you have provided for other gadgets as well. if not, why so?

philippines has one of the worst diesel supplies which contributes to not-so-pleasant exhausts. more than fuel savings, i would like my ride to be more eco-friendly. so, i am really considering this on my ride. your help will be highly appreciated.

You don't have to use much alcohol for the kit, 5% is more than enough, You will still make more power with just water with the system and get better fuel economy especially from 1400 to 1500 rpms. You can use any alcohol, Iso, Ethyl, Denatured, methanol, Gin Vodka, Windshield washer fluid has long been a favorite and is what I pretty much use,heck you can pour your left over san mig from a party in there and it's going to work. You just get the monster power gains using higher consentrations of alcohol. Not everyone needs 40hp or 70hp gains.

If you run the system dry and suck air it will be stopped by the check valve simply because the pump cannot clear air pass the check valve. The pump will most likely out live your car, All the hard parts will out live your car, The hose that comes with the kit will outlive every hose and belt on your vehicle. The pressure switch will also outlive your car, (rated at 3 million cycles) The pump is rated at 1 million cycles, The fittings will never rust, corrode ect because they are nickel plated brass and will look as good 10 years from now as they did the day you installed it.

This is a problem you really will not have to worry about if you mind you tank level. And the fact that Speedlab ordered our liquid level switches that will be installed with the kit. Once your tank gets low the system will simply de-activate.

You should really read the thread about alcohol injection use. And no it does not cause rusting to interal parts,

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...myth-1325.html

Did you know water is produced everytime you turn your engine on? It's part of the internal combustion process.

For about every gallon of diesel or petro burned a gallon of water is made, just a simple fact most people don't know.

There is no cleaner engine than a water/alcohol injected one period, There is little to no carbon buildup on your internals and they stay looking like new. Intakes remain almost spotless on the inside, This is a proven fact.

I just put up some good pics to show the difference on this post.

http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showt...t=48442&page=8

Some technical facts, It's just not for power and more KPL it extends your engine live dramatically

a. Injection of fine fog of water/methanol solution into the intake tract to reduce compression work—additionally the formation of steam in this also cleanses coking and injector deposits as well as carbon buildup.

b. Injection of fine fog of water/methanol + nonionic surfactant pre-turbocompressor to:

i. *Possibly, under certain conditions—reduce compression work and keep the turbo nearer to the Buchi point (if mapped properly)—in theory the turbo moves more mass of air per unit of time, which is ALL that matters, not boost.

ii. Aid in intercooling by effectively acting as a phase-change intercooling system.

iii. Keep entire intake clean of oil/crud.
iv. By cooling the IAT sensor, the ECU is better able to adapt to the true intake air temperature and pressure—thus preserving “correct” timing for the actual conditions.

Benefits of intake tract injection (with caveat that you don’t get overly aggressive/greedy for power with too much methanol!):
ü Reduces peak cylinder temperatures 100-175 degrees C, thus reducing NOx.
ü Reduces peak cylinder pressures substantially, preserving head gaskets in tuned Tdi’s.
ü Reduces compression work by phase change (latent heat of vaporization.)
ü Steam cleans cylinders, pistons, nozzles, etcetera.

The N/A non high compression engines there would benefit very little unless tuning was done with things like raising the timing ect if power and fuel savings is what your looking for, But killing heat soak and getting all the other benefits of the system as show above are still well worth it. If your going to spend 500,000p for a new car you should protect it. And it will drive smoother and better than stock.


For turbo diesels with 2.5L or less engines a D02 (2GPH /163ml min) nozzle is the size that gives you a good compromise between power and consumption. 2.5L and up DO2 or DO3 will do the job for you as well. In the PI it's pretty easy the majority of the vehicles take the D02 nozzle and can use the D03 if they want more power.

This vehicle is tuned, Unfortuatly you guys really don't have the high HP cars like we do in the states for the N/A cars for much bigger gains.

if this theory dates back wwii, how come the car manufacturers never made this as an OEM considering the cost can get easily be incorporated in their pricing? and it will be a good marketing slogan as well? fuel savings and eco-friendlier car... it'll be a good catch.

Why, They actually did, GM, Sabb, Chrysler, good old Enzo himself made some with it strait from the factory as well. Look up the Sabb 900 or Buick Grand National. You want to know why it's not popular with mass production cars.

Number one reason is people are lazy, It's one more thing that needs to be filled up and that's the downside to the marketing of of as a factory option. Now people who like the benefits will have no problems filling up the tank. This is why intercoolers were made larger and turbos more efficient. Unfortuatly the vehicles there did not follow suit. Your vehicles have some of the worst intercoolers and most in-efficient turbos out there especially for the vehicles size and weight. Put that with the hot climate and it makes water/alcohol injection your best option.

did you offer your gadget for epa testing? if so, can you share the results similar to what you have provided for other gadgets as well. if not, why so?

Of course not because it's pointess, There are hundreds of studies done on the emission reductions of water/alcohol injection already, From NASA, The US military, Pentagon, to the Department of Transportation to many universities in the US, to universities and goverment agencies world wide. Like stated it's not new.

And it is not a gadget, It is a system of parts that is designed to deliver the precise amount of water/alcohol injection at a precise time for a given vehicle.

A few examples there are hundreds to pick from on the net. It's a proven process so that's why there is no need to have it evaluated anymore. It's been done time and time again.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/TDC/publication/...200/14272e.pdf
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/20...002-211978.pdf
http://www.energy.ca.gov/afvs/clean_diesel.html
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~rutla...00-01-2938.pdf
http://www.marad.dot.gov/nmrec/energ...t%20Canada.pdf
http://www.stormingmedia.us/91/9123/A912363.html
http://www.cimac.com/cimac_cms/uploa...ions_Sep99.pdf

And unlike scam devices sold out there, We have a full time techicle forum on our site as well to answer all your questions as well as a real warranty on our products. You won't find a unhappy customer in the Philippines with the kit installed on their vehicle. For the most part we understate the gains you will see on turbo diesels. And that's who we are really marketing to in the Philippines.

[jacorb_88]

thanks ghosthunter, dvldoc.

mine is pajero fieldmaster 2.8 (blister fender). what would be the best nozzle fit to maximize KPL gain?

I'm totally into it. Just spoke with speedlab as well. Accdg to them, kits will arrive in 1.5 months.

[dvldoc]

DO3 for max power, all kits come with D02 and DO3 nozzles plus they have assorted sizes in stock.

[artlynn]

Ano suggestion nyo para mas makatipid po ako sa Diesel? and ride ko eh sportivo 2007.
Saan ako makakabili?
paki email ako sa artlynn_pagatpatan*yahoo.com

Ano comment nyo sa airvortex?

Thanks.....

[1D4LV]

^^ matipid na ang sportivo ah... ilang ba actual FC mo?
airvortex? yan ba yung binebenta nung ***y na ex-actress tsaka yung fake na lawyer? hoax yun....

[wildthing]

OT: the above dyno test have shown POWER gains but did it show fuel use reduction?

BTT: Can we classify a device that improves power gains but does not show fuel use reduction/savings as a "Scam Fuel saving device" too?

[ghosthunter]

BTT: Can we classify a device that improves power gains but does not show fuel use reduction/savings as a "Scam Fuel saving device" too?

depends. did the device claim any fuel saving properties as it's primary function? If not, then, it's NOT a fuel saving device, right?

[wildthing]

thank you GH,

so for the sake of discussion, if a "device" claims that it saves fuel and yet their data or test done does not lead towards proving the fuel savings it can be classified as scam kahit na 30-40% increase ang HP ng sasakyan when the device was added and used?

(sidenote: maybe it should be classified as a power increasing device)

tia for the reply.

[ghosthunter]

thank you GH,

so for the sake of discussion, if a "device" claims that it saves fuel and yet their data or test done does not lead towards proving the fuel savings it can be classified as scam kahit na 30-40% increase ang HP ng sasakyan when the device was added and used?

(sidenote: maybe it should be classified as a power increasing device)

tia for the reply.

Depends on how the device's functions/benefits are described. Usually they use "up to" ... like gains your car up to 30% better fuel mileage. Anyway, performance mods can increase fuel economy if certain conditions are met but usually performance means increased FC.

Example, a piggy back ECU or digital AFC can increase your car's performance and also improve your FC figures because it can be programmed to increase peak HP output while improving economy under a certain RPM level.

Another example is the open element cone filter or racing filter. It can improve FC figures but most often it's used to increase HP output.

So we can use "scams" to describe more on devices which do little to deliver their primary claims or benefits.

In that light, if a device's primary claim is performance while having a secondary claim of fuel saving... well, it really depends if it can deliver it's primary claim. And often it also depends on the "setup" of the car as well. Like a turbocharger can be used to increase fuel economy and/or performance, it simply depends how the vehicle is designed.

[wildthing]

If that is the case then probably they have placed a wrong title to this article:



(please forgive my ignorance if my interpretation is wrong)

Because by reading the title of the article, I would think that the said device will make me save on fuel - which in my conclusion will be saving me some money which in return will "payback" my investment on the unit.

Unfortunately, how can it save fuel (as claimed in the article's title), when the dyno does not explicitly show any fuel savings?

Instead, the dyno test showed great power (HP) gains. So the car is now more efficient in burning the fuel now... but then again there was really no mention that it would equate to a longer distance traveled per unit of fuel used.

If I were the writer or editor of that article, the best title for it should have been "INCREASE POWER, USE WATER" or something like that.

So which one is wrong - news article's title or product positioning claims?

Can we classify a device that improves power gains but does not show fuel use reduction/savings as a "Scam Fuel saving device" too?

PS. I am not against the said product (specially the owner which is also a tsikoteer), infact if I have the money I surely would want one on my dmax...

but for now, what I am looking for is a device that will improve my fuel usage - more distance traveled per unit fuel used.

I also hope that some test can be done on it to correct my ideas/perception (or prove me wrong) on the FUEL SAVING thing.

[fast lane]

if there is increase in power, you dont have to press your gas pedal too much to make the car roll on its wheel, instead of pressing it fully(gas pedal), you can just press at 3/4 or even 1/2.

remember a slight de-pressing of the gas pedal could even save fuel on unmodified cars

now if the car increases in power that alone could mean the car is more efficient than before

efficiency can also be equated to savings

[niky]

It's only a fuel saver in the sense that you're pressing on the accelerator less and for less time to overtake. If you drive in "tipid" mode (rpms always low and engine "off-boost"), then it won't activate at all.

There are also some savings in having a cleaner engine, but these are small, percentage-wise, unless the engine gets really dirty.

Personally, I don't expect much savings from my alcohol kit... I just got it for the power and the engine-cleaning properties, which to me, as the owner of an old-school "mausok" Crosswind, are the most important aspects of the kit... especially since a catalytic converter for diesels from Nodalos costs just as much or even more, depending on the size.

For the D-Max, you might be better served by utilizing some fuel-saving strategies posted elsewhere... otherwise, the only way to make it run more economically at low rpms or in traffic is to have the engine reprogrammed via a piggyback controller. Still, hard to find enough gas savings from one of those to make it worth the purchase, though... but extra power is always nice...

[dvldoc]

With the progressive kit for the alcohol injection you can start out your injection low like 2psi of boost, Most vehicles there are already boosting at 1100 rpms so if your making more power at that same boost level you do not need to accelerate further.

If it takes 15% Throttle to travel at X amount of kph on a road, then you activate the water injection and it now only takes 10% of throttle to travel the same speed your saving fuel. The kit does not use anything from your vehicle. You can do this with just water alone, alcohol will give you more power because it will allow you to burn all your diesel so your not wasting fuel. Remember diesels waste around 15% to 20% of there fuel. I.E the black smoke and much higher emissions. It's pretty evident how much more efficient the motor is after the system is installed and you do a emissions test.

We don't claim huge fuel savings but 15% is to be expected with a 20% gain in overall hp and torque. The more power you make without adding extra fuel from your vehicle the more kpl you will get.

We sell to the VW TDI crowd for this very reason they by the systems like hotcakes because some are now turning over 55mpg vs 47mpg in stock form. The pre turbo nozzle really improves the efficiency of the vehicles in the Philippines because your turbos are simply under powered. The lower engine operating temps also helps out as well as the removal of carbon/soot buildup and the fact it stays removed for the life of the system.

But most people just like it for the the extra power, Everything else is just a bonus.

[wildthing]

...We sell to the VW TDI crowd for this very reason they by the systems like hotcakes because some are now turning over 55mpg vs 47mpg in stock form...

is this fuel savings documented or more of a testimonial from the users?

it would be nice it was documented or scientifically tested like the dyno test...

[ghosthunter]

is this fuel savings documented or more of a testimonial from the users?

it would be nice it was documented or scientifically tested like the dyno test...

Just want to point out that the main purpose of the Devil's Own water/alcohol injection kit is to increase the horsepower of the engine. All other benefits including some potential fuel savings, cleaner emissions, etc are by-products of the modication's main goal which is more engine horsepower.

[SaberRider]

Has anyone seen this device?

http://hhydro.bravehost.com/



Anyway, sir dvldoc........ do you already have the digital gauges for your kit?
As soon as you have em I'll purchase the best diesel stage kit you have. I think I'll purchase these to add to the performance of my diesel suv.

devilsown kit
unichip
bigger intercooler
air intake kit
headers and downpipe upgrade

Is this a good project?

[ghosthunter]

Has anyone seen this device?

http://hhydro.bravehost.com/

The device... nope but the devices similar to it, yes. I have seen the prototype device made by "ehnriko" though. It's basically an electrolysis device to generate hydrogen & oxygen from water. The website also mentions "ehnriko" who is a member of tsikot.com. He is an avid supporter of these types of devices.