CATALYTIC CONVERTERS, Is there a conspiracy behind it?

[ehnriko]

I am starting this thread in response to the general public acceptance of an item present in modern cars that I think should be questioned.

Let me start with this quoted text from Above Top Secret website (The catalytic converter conspiracy, page 1):

Topic started on 16-5-2010 * 02:25 AM by Binder

I did a thorough search, and was a bit surprised that this one hasn't come up on ATS that I can see. It effects us all, and we should all be aware of this fleecing by federal mandate.

If you drive an American automobile of a later year than 1975, which should be about everyone in America, it has a catalytic converter. Unless it's older than 1984 in which case you can cut the sucker off, and pitch it. The catalytic converter or "cat" for short was first thought of in the early 1950s by a french engineer living in L.A. named Eugene Houdry. He was tired of all the smog, and worked in catalytic oil refining. The first production cats weren't introduced until 1973 when lead was taken out of gasoline as an anti-knock agent, and some other guys fussed around with the design, and improved it. Lead gunked up the converter. By 1975 all vehicles had to have a cat from the factory, and by 1985 it was a crime to take it off your vehicle if it was built in that year, or later.

The idea behind the cat is to burn unburned hydrocarbons(fuel molecules) left over from the combustion cycle. It wasn't really too bad of an idea for the time because cars were carbureted then, and the fuel mix ratio was just set to the best compromise for most conditions. If it got cold, or you had a big drop in altitude it would be a little lean, if it got hot, or you went up into the mountains it would be a little rich. Most of them were set on the rich side because a spark ignition engine runs better a little rich than it does too lean. So this meant unburned fuel coming out the tail pipe. The cat was supposed to burn this extra gas and clean up the emissions. Good idea right?

Maybe sort of at first. The biggest problem with early converters is that they took a long time to get hot, and they had a problem staying hot enough to burn the fuel all the time because the carburetor wasn't always that far off, and sometimes was too lean to keep the cat hot, but rich enough to still waste some gas. Enter the smog pump. It blew air into the cat like a blast on a furnace to keep it hot, and the carburetors were intentionally set even richer to make sure they wasted enough fuel to keep the cat hot. Plus the smog pump pulled about 5 horsepower. So now we are wasting fuel to support a device to catch wasted fuel, brilliant. Now I'm sure all the oil companies were just heart broken that every single car on the road was going to have to consume about 30% more fuel to catch any incidental unburned fuel that might escape due to the carburetion system.

Then in the mid 80s we started getting good at fuel injection, and now we can control how much fuel the engine gets at any time. Coincidentally about the same time the feds mandate the catalytic converter to be on all engines about 25HP all the time, for all time, and with no exceptions, EVER. A little convenient? Seeing as there should be very little waste fuel now that we can accurately meter the fuel to the engine's needs. Your modern vehicle's computer is now so sophisticated that it can vary the pulse of every injector by 1/100th of a gram every single rotation of the engine. There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for a modern vehicle to have a catalytic converter. Accept that it takes about 15%-20% more of your fuel(read money) to keep it hot, and running. Better than the 30% or more from days of yore, but still very wasteful. Not to mention the less than beneficial side effects produced by the cat. Like acid rain from hydrogen sulfide.

Anyone with a moderate understanding of combustion theory, and an understanding of engine control systems knows that a properly electronically tuned engine burns many times cleaner than the federally mandated system. Some european contries won't even allow california smog equipped vehicles in their country because they are so dirty. At our current level of technology it is abundantly apparent that it has nothing to do with clean air, and everything to do with $$$.

[dvldoc]

Let me get this strait you sell a product that kill CATALYTIC converters (Gtoil) super high ZDDP. Now you find there is a conspiracy as to why we have them.

Sorry no conspiracy about them, Ever car maker would love to get rid of a item that add cost to a vehicle, it's the EPA that makes them have them and other environmental organizations from around the would. Your theory makes zero sense. There is a reason we have OBD-II standards.

On 1996 and newer vehicles that have OnBoard Diagnostics II (OBDII), there is a "catalyst monitor" that keeps an eye on the operating efficiency of the converter. A second oxygen sensor is mounted "downstream" or behind the converter to compare oxygen levels in the exhaust before and after the converter.

Under normal operating conditions, the downstream O2 sensor should have little switching activity. But if the rate at which the downstream O2 sensor is switching starts to increase, it tells the OBDII system converter efficiency is dropping and there's a potential emissions problem. If the problem may cause emissions to exceed 1.5 times the federal limit, the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) will come on and the PCM will log a diagnostic trouble code for "catalyst is below threshold efficiency" (P0420, P0421, P0422, P0430, P0431 or P0432). The bottom line here is you have a bad converter -- unless the problem is something else like a bad oxygen sensor or open fuel feedback control loop.

If you have a dual trace digital storage oscilloscope (DSO) and want to confirm the diagnosis, you can hook your scope up to the upstream and downstream O2 sensors to compare their switching activity. If the downstream O2 sensor activity mirrors the upstream O2 sensor, the converter is dead and needs to be replaced.

You can also confirm a bad converter by comparing levels of CO and HC in the exhaust fore and aft of the converter. If you see little or no reduction in HC and CO levels, the converter has reached the end of the road and needs to be replaced.

Exhaust gas is already hot, anywhere from 500F to 1300F depending on load, The converter does not require heat to work. The job of the catalytic converter is to convert harmful pollutants into less harmful emissions before they ever leave the car's* exhaust system. It's just a simple chemical reaction. So how does less emissions cause more problems?

Why do HHO guys always have all these environmental conspiracy theories.

To save use all just read this folks and it will explain the facts. It's pretty much dead on.

Catalytic converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[niky]

While it is technically easy to reach near zero hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions without using a catalytic converter, and to get terrific fuel economy to boot, by using ultra-lean burn... Honda did it in the 90's with the Civic VX... it is very difficult to do it without generating massive amounts of NOx, which is very toxic.

Any idiot who knows anything about engine tuning knows this. This is why you can't buy cars without cats in Europe anymore, either.

That's also why, after spending millions of dollars trying to find a non-cat strategy to clean the exhaust while meeting strict HC, CO and NOx limits, Honda and other manufacturers are stuck back at using catalytic converters.

The only reason I run without one is it's not required in the Philippines since we don't test for NOx (a fact which makes many "fuel saver" vendors very thankful), and I meet HC and CO emissions just fine.

All those nifty new technologies that enable us to save gas? If we use direct injection to its fullest capacity, as in stratified ultra-lean burn, which Audi uses in Europe, we also get high levels of NOx. Unless regulations relax, there's no way to do without the catalytic converter today.

It's all part of the conspiracy to keep people from dying of respiratory disease. Damn the Surgeon General.

[uls]

for those too lazy to read all that --

it says modern cars no longer need catalytic converters and the real reason why catalytic converters are still being used is coz of $$$

looks like enriko has a problem with companies making money

but he's trying to make money selling GToil

but he's different daw

he's off-the-greed daw

oh well...

[niky]

In other news:

Lead-free solder: A conspiracy to make electronics less durable so we buy more often. Nothing to do with lead-poisoning. Promise.

Lead-free paint: A conspiracy to make paint finishes less durable so we buy more paint. Or to make toy finishes less durable so we buy more toys. Nothing to do with lead-poisoning. I mean, it's not like kids put those toys in their mouths, right?

Ban on mercury thermometers: A conspiracy to make us buy cheap electronic thermometers from China or electronic thermometers from the US that don't break like glass thermometers when we drop them. Nothing to do with mercury poisoning. Really.

Ban on asbestos: A conspiracy to... well... uh... fiberglass.. uh... man, I can't figure that one out!

[uls]

hahahaha

kaya pala nilagyan ng seatbelt lahat ng sasakyan para kumita mga seatbelt manufacturers

[uls]

at kaya pala lahat ng sasakyan meron windshield wipers...

[EE100shiro]

How to Remove a CAT in less than 30 seconds!

[ghosthunter]

*enhriko,

If you want to try for some conspiracy theory, why not try to go for why ethanol blended gasoline was required in the philippine clean air act. Was it done to increase the earnings of the oil companies and increase tax collections by making cars use more fuel (E10 gas makes cars burn more fuel for the same distance as compared to regular unleaded gas).

Otherwise, catalytic converters is just boring and a non-issue. Just shows how much out-of-the-box you have gotten and have gotten lost without a reference point. BTW, thinking out of the box is great but make sure you know all of the angles of the subject you are talking about or you might just end up having your face stuffed into the same box (figuratively).

[uls]

*enhriko,

If you want to try for some conspiracy theory, why not try to go for why ethanol blended gasoline was required in the philippine clean air act.

it's coz local ethanol producers have connections with high level politicians. politicians with financial interest in ethanol producers