Avanza 1.3 J M/T (5 seater) or Vios 1.3 J M/T ... which would you choose?

[niky]

I'd still like to know what bearing the posts of forumers on another board have on this question. Especially since none of them have ever seen an AUV in their life...

Have you driven both cars? And not just a slow drive but a faster drive that would show how the two vehicles would show their different handling dynamics?

Or long enough to hear all the extra squeaks and rattles in the Avanza over the Vios? Or to hear the radio interference on the Vios caused by the engine?

If the TS seriously seriously needs a seven seater, the 1.3 Avanza isn't one... even when it is. The 1.3 engine can take the weight of seven passengers, but not well, and needs to be worked hard to climb hills with such a load... which negates any fuel savings you get from having the smaller engine. The 1.5 is a better choice in this regard. Much better... since it doesn't have an interior that looks like it came out of a 1980's FX.

If the TS is simply looking for an economical car with a 1.3 engine, the Vios is it. Seats five in comfort, has a big trunk. Has better resale value than the 1.3 Avanza.

If he needs a workhorse, better for him to get a secondhand Innova or Crosswind. Neither is quite as comfy as the Vios, but they're more rugged and fit for heavy-duty hauling. Though, to be fair, the Avanza third row is more comfortable than the Innova's tight rear end.

[ghosthunter]

Or long enough to hear all the extra squeaks and rattles in the Avanza over the Vios? Or to hear the radio interference on the Vios caused by the engine?

It was caused by interference with the headlights, as I remember...

We should get an award for discovering that one.

[jaymd]

avanza would have probably less maintenance costs vs the vios outside the warranty period. RWD vehicles are also more durable. main reason why Front drives are popular is cheaper cost to manufacture another is interior space. as for the RWD and FWD debate sabi ng automechanics professsor ko dati nun 80's kaya daw nauuso na yun FWD is based daw yun sa horse drawn carriage nun araw. hila daw ng kabayo yun carriage di daw tinutulak. kaya dapat daw FWD hehe. mukhang high si teacher sa fumes ng premium leaded gasoline nun

[_Qwerty_]

i have a 1.5 Avanza.. matagtag talaga sya compared sa vios.. pero wala naman ako problema sa cornering..

kung 5 seater lang ang kailangan nang TS.. i would get the Vios... malaking bagay din yung trunk.. tsaka ibang iba talaga ang ride nang vios.

[niky]

It was caused by interference with the headlights, as I remember...

We should get an award for discovering that one.

Credit's all yours. You're the fiddling fiddler who found it out! ;)

avanza would have probably less maintenance costs vs the vios outside the warranty period. RWD vehicles are also more durable.

Durable is due to the specific design of the car. In this case:

Car - Avanza - Vios
Chasis - Unibody - Unibody
Front susp - McPherson - McPherson
Rear susp - coil spring + solid axle - coil spring + torsion beam
Engine - 1.3 variable valve - 1.3 variable valve
Brakes - disc+drum - disc+drum

What's the difference? Except for the fact that the Avanza engine is only sold in the Avanza locally, while the Vios engine has been used in the Vios for nearly 10 years yere (which means spares are easier to find?)

It's mind-boggling that people assume the lower price of parts for prehistoric AUVs means that all rear-drive vehicles will be cheaper to maintain. Just tell that to a modern Benz or a BMW owner... let's see them keep a straight face while you explain this. You've never had to change all the bushings on an MX-5, which has full double-wishbones in front and in the rear (and is more prone to overheating and brake issues, mind, than the 323 it shares engines with!).

Mind boggling. I enjoy the lower cost of maintenance of my RWD Crosswind, though. Not because it's RWD... but because it's a freaking Crosswind. It's atom-bomb proof.

main reason why Front drives are popular is cheaper cost to manufacture another is interior space. as for the RWD and FWD debate sabi ng automechanics professsor ko dati nun 80's kaya daw nauuso na yun FWD is based daw yun sa horse drawn carriage nun araw. hila daw ng kabayo yun carriage di daw tinutulak. kaya dapat daw FWD hehe. mukhang high si teacher sa fumes ng premium leaded gasoline nun

The only time a RWD vehicle can approach the fuel efficiency and power delivery of a FWD vehicle is when the engine is placed in the rear, to eliminate the heavy and costly driveshaft. This has been shown on the dyno numerous times... RWD and FWD vehicles of the same quoted power often have different power levels at the wheels... with FWD making more.... and if you have an AWD car of the same power level... it makes a hell of a lot less.

sobra ka naman and here's another. share natin to dito sa tsikot. i hope first time drivers who have FWD are aware of this.
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html

Again. Complete bull by someone who doesn't know how to drive.

What happens when you lift off the gas pedal in a front-drive car? The weight shifts forward. The front wheels bite. The car slews into a turn. If it's a really badly set-up car, like a Corolla... or a sporty one, like a Mini Cooper, it'll oversteer.

This is because the power that has been fighting your steering inputs is suddenly gone, and you can steer again. This is racecraft 101... I think a lot of people on autoindustriya and the PTCC would be laughing at this post right now... they've been doing the wrong thing all this time! :hysterical:

This guy has absolutely no idea what a front-wheel drive car drives like at the limit... and I shudder to think that people actually listen to this crap. Know why no one responded to his letters? Because all the driving instructors were laughing at him.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/oversteer.htm

Front engine, front wheel drive

Cause of oversteer - Likelihood of oversteer

Entering the corner too fast - More likely to understeer initially

Accelerating early or aggressively - Low

Lifting off the throttle - High

Braking- High (*my note: if your car has ABS... it's not as likely)

Sporty front wheel drive cars are more likely to experience oversteer than a standard car due to the vehicle setup. Dial out the inherent understeer tendencies of a front wheel drive car using clever engineering, and the result is a better 'turn in' and an increased ability to oversteer due to the naturally light rear. In this case, it is usually possible to accelerate out of the oversteer situation, using the rearward weight transfer to actively increase levels of grip at the back. Front wheel drive cars are especially prone to lift off oversteer due to the forward weight transfer combined with light rear end.



Question: When a FWD car accelerates, weight is transferred to the rear. Does this mean that the front of the car where the engine is located becomes lighter than the rear during acceleration?

Answer: Firstly, the weight transfers which result from acceleration are perhaps not as great as you think. This is because you're unlikely to be able to accelerate as quickly as you can brake or change direction with the steering - thus the advantages or rear weight transfers are usually slightly less than in other directions. It's very unlikely any front engine car could accelerate to the point that the rear weights more than the front. There will be some transfer of weight onto the rear wheels, but not that much.

In truth... it's a good idea not to lift off the gas entirely in a turn... but this is not because the front wheels will lock up immediately and cause you to lose all steering (I shudder to think: every single driver on the road today lets off the gas before they get to an intersection... Imagine all those "locked" tires!), but because the sudden shift in weight can cause oversteer (in all types of front-engined cars, if the suspension is not sound).

This is coming from a guy who's understeered and oversteered quite a number of cars.... front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive and four-wheel drive. The amount of understeer inherent in a car is dependent mostly on tires and suspension set-up. Which is why a Mini Cooper will understeer much less than a Mercedes C-Class or even a BMW 3-series. Which is why accidents and mishaps on the racetrack are mostly spins... even in stock set-up FWD cars. If the understeer is so bad that you can't steer out of it with a FWD car, having RWD won't help. You have no front grip, and the car will go off the track, regardless. The only difference being whether you go off head first, ass first or sideways. (pray that it's not sideways... as then you have less protection from the impact... headfirst is always the best due to the crumple zones...)

So... who will you trust? A crackpot with an outdated theory that doesn't match facts, or drivers who have actually been there and done that?

EDIT: Texted a friend who tunes, autocrosses and rallycrosses about the claim that lifting off the throttle causes locked wheels and understeer. His response?

LOL

[jaymd]

more moving parts more parts prone to damage. ano ba mas madami pwede masira sa suspension/tranny bits? Sa FWD or RWD? any thoughts? pansin ko kasi sa lahat ng naging auto namin pag FWD parati palit ng CV boot or joint/ ball joint, tie rod end. etc pero pag rwd bihira pagawa suspension. depende rin siguro sa manufacturer? Sorry OT

[alwayz_yummy]

lumayo na kayo sa topic hehehe

[niky]

you mentioned about Crosswind, do you think the maintenance would be the same if it is a FWD? Bull and why MB and BMW cannot leave the RWD design on their cars? Performance is the main answer.

If the front-wheel drive used this kind of transaxle, probably even less:


The choice to use independent axles on front-wheel drives is purely a packaging/manufacturing choice. AUVs still use solid rear axles because they're cheap and people who buy AUVs (us) don't often complain about ride quality.

Newer rear-wheel drive cars use independent rear drive axles because they're more conducive to a good ride. Yes, they're not as robust as a live-axle and yes, CV Joints are a wear item, but that's the trade-off for a good ride.

Of all the things you could compare a Vios to an Avanza in, the only thing you can say for sure is that after 100,000+ kilometers, you will have to replace the CV Joints. Other front suspension pieces are similar and wear will be similar. That's a difference of, say, 7000 to 8000 pesos every 100,000 kilometers versus the better fuel consumption of the Vios over the same time (lighter, more efficient drivetrain)... which is worth more than that.

-

BMW and Benz use rear-wheel drive because it's more exclusive.

A Mini Cooper handles about as well as a 1-series in any situation short of the racetrack (and sometimes better on the track, because the 1-series is so heavy). BMW recognized that it would be difficult to create a rear-wheel drive entry level model on a rear-wheel drive chassis, which is why they bought out the rights to the Mini Cooper and produced the new one, as their entry-level car in the premium market. After that, they launched the 1-series anyway, based on a modified 3-series platform. Guess what? Because it's based on the 3-series, it's heavy-as-hell, there's absolutely no rear seat space, and to make it handle better than the competition, they've made it ride like a skateboard.

Audi has made in-roads into making people see that FWD-based cars can be exclusive, also, by offering their cars in a variety of FWD-AWD drivetrains. Yes, they often don't drive as nicely as BMWs, but that's due to the way Audi designs their cars rather than the limitations of their system (case in point: the Audi RS4, which handles as well as an M3, despite being front-biased AWD, shows that Audi can do it).

And yet... people still don't see Audi at the same level... because they share so much with VWs. BMW and Benz strike people as more upscale, because they're rear-wheel drive. And people buying these cars understand that RWD vehicles are more expensive to make, and they value that.

Do note: Benz has dabbled in FWD for its entry-level cars, the A-Class and B-Class. The B-Class has more space and utility than a C-Class... but I prefer the C-Class because it's a newer, better car. (Yeah, it's RWD, but it understeers like a stuck pig when you push it due to the tires and suspension, even though at 8/10ths it feels less prone to understeer than most.)

For higher powered performance vehicles, RWD still makes more sense. For anything below 300 hp, FWD can perform as well or sometimes better than a RWD car of the same size and weight thanks to advances in suspension and tire technology.

And the Avanza and Vios are well... well below 300 hp.

Neither would be my first choice... I don't like Toyota's suspension tuning on these cars (not as stable in turns as Ford, Mazda or Honda), but the Vios is better than the Avanza in regards to day-to-day safety and performance.

[niky]

The argument started when you claimed that a FWD car would sustain more damage in a frontal collision, here:

simple example, shoot one of your FWD front wheel into a manhole submerged in 3 inch flood water at lowly 20 kph then compare your cost of repair against the weakest RWD.

i've been driving since '86 that's why i am so familiar with RWD. that time, only the Mirage, Laser, Telstar and the last Corolla (before the "16valves") are the FWDs. what happen to them? they were outlived by the Starlets, Lancer boxtypes, galants and the coronas - all RWDs

Note: Laser? Telstar? They didn't last long because after they came out, Ford pulled out of the Philippines and they all rusted to death. That said, there are still cars like that on the road.

Nothing to do with FWD or RWD. We owned a Laser. Never had any problems with it, mechanically, as opposed to the RWD Chevy we had before it... it's just that the chassis and exhaust rusted to pieces in the time that we owned.

RWD versus FWD? Cefiro GTS-R versus Galant GTi... which do you see more of on the road?

Then you amended it to this:

In a minor or medium force collision that resulted to joint damage, here we can see how expensive replacing an outer CV joint or worst axle (not a boot ha?) than with the most common McPherson strut type of the RWD Avanzas.

Then we noted that said collision would have to be extremely severe, so:

what if the sole portion hit is one of your front fender/wheel? i don't think the damage will go thru the engine, manifold etc. also, say both FWD and RWD got into a manhole at any speed? sensitivity of FWD will always be on top not to mention the type of road here

I've destroyed several mags due to potholes on the Lynx. Cracked a few. Had to replace lots of suspension parts... bushings... tie rod ends. Never had to replace a CV Joint. Some cars have weak CV Joints. Some don't. Whoopee. Given that both Vios and Avanza have front McPhersons built by the same company... which would be more prone to damage, again, if we take the CV Joint out of the equation? (And I've posted already about the cost of CV Joint replacement versus running costs and distance travelled)

Then you started posting links to nonsense discussions about FWD versus RWD:

for FWD vs RWD or even AWD comparison, this would help :cheers:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...-vs-awd-2.html

From a forum, no less... I pointed out these guys have no knowledge of local AUVs. But still:

for me, forumers are more knowledgeable than those who just "buy" because they need to and the least they have no other choice. forumers are here to know and to give something they know as well. issues or not, that could give help to readers in need. but for those who are "so knowledgeable" i don't think so

An oblique reference to us? Eh? You're now arguing just for the sake of arguing.

And then bring up another car not in the discussion:

remember the introduction of the MB100 (FWD) in the 90's? it was selling like hotcakes because of its size, price, and the MB badge but after a few years it was discontinued. Why?

Which I responded to: Indonesian made, crap quality, poor gearbox... (oh, yes, we had one, too) but I reminded you that even some Japanese rear-drive vans had issues with the drivetrain... and they overheated more often... (we had a Vanette. It was worse. I'd rather have the MB100).

Then you started grasping at straws:

sobra ka naman :doh: and here's another. share natin to dito sa tsikot. this could help you too as well as first time drivers who have FWDs.

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html

This is the single worst piece of automotive writing I've ever seen on the internet... almost as bad as those 9-11 conspiracy sites. I'd still like to see proof that your tires will lock up whenever you let off the gas pedal. Maybe the guy downshifts into first at 100 km/h when he lets off the gas... :hysterical:

c'mon guys, don't say you don't know that :doh:

Errh... who said what?

Performance is the main answer.

While I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing, this isn't the place for it... and you're just going in circles for the sake of arguing.

-

If you prefer RWD, you prefer RWD. But don't invent reasons that don't exist for why the Avanza is better than the Vios.

-

I'd actually consider an Avanza 1.5 over a Vios 1.5 if I needed a family car. An Avanza 1.3 5-seater over a Vios? No. The 1.3 has really cheap interiors, it rattles, it squeaks, the engine struggles to carry a full-load (but it can, if it needs to... only issue is fuel consumption when you fill up the cargo bay), the handling is tippy and the body is tinny compared to the more crash-worthy Vios.

Fini. End. Finis.

[alwayz_yummy]

so avanza 1.3J 5-seater or vios 1.3J?

sana di na maligaw pa..