Engine design at accessories? kaya na ba?

[JJCarEnthusiast]

i'm referring to the body workmanship of the AMC hammer. the body isn't derived from patrol only the undercarriage.

[uls]

pinoys are good with their hands

Pinoys are good at pounding and bending metals into shapes

and good at working with fiberglass (think body kits)

that's it

it's still a long way from producing a Chery or a Proton

[rhuwrx]

Actually I'm a fan of those hammers, I commend AMC for doing a great job in terms of the workmanship on the body work, but what I am trying to say is that making car bodies is different from making engines, it's a more complex process involving hundreds of components that have to perform precisely and reliably 100% of the time.

[niky]

We have some of the factories we need.

When we were talking to the MVPMAP boys a while back, they said that a local factory was willing to stamp out body panels, if they could assure volume.

Engine deals for one-offs are expensive. Buy a whole lot of them, and we're talking business.

So... locally designed automobile. Possible? Yes. From the ground-up? Not yet... but once you have volume, you can work at localizing parts.

But volume is the key.

What's the volume?

I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was around 40,000 units (for the panel stamping). When we heard that number... we gasped... to sell 40,000 units, you'd need the market clout of Toyota.

Here, we're looking to sell a car built to a low price in the same volumes that Toyota sells, say, Innova Js. Now look at the Chinese cars. They have vans that are half-the-price of an Innova... and pick-ups that are cheap as dirt... pick-ups that ostensibly use Isuzu-based engines.

And we also have Norkis vehicles, which are rebadged and rebuilt Japanese vehicles selling for much less than Toyotas.

Are they outselling Innovas?

No.

Why?

Like uls says, the Filipino buyer is spoiled for choice. They'll bitch and moan given the slightest problems from such well engineered cars as Toyotas and Hondas.

Chinese cars? Give them one confirmed horror story, and they'll stay away in droves. Norkis? One look at the interior, and you'll realize you could do a better job of reconditioning a RHD conversion in your own backyard.

If you want them to buy a local car, you have to convince them of the quality first. Build machines with top-notch fit and finish, and impeccable mechanicals. A PhUV like that would require an original Isuzu powertrain package (last I looked, 500k pesos), a good body (stamped for another 100-200k) and a nice interior (say, 100k worth). Add wheels, battery, fuel tank, glass, etcetera... and you're looking at a Crosswind-class vehicle for about a million bucks.

Do you think that would be successful?

Malaysia only managed to do it with Perouda and Proton by licensing Mitsubishi technology (the best way to go) and leveraging their sales against some of the highest car import taxes in the world.

But after achieving financial success, they had to contend with teething problems switching to local suppliers... many of who could not meet the quality of their Japanese counterparts. And they had a hard time competing... their costs went up, quality went down... they pulled out of some markets (ever wonder why Proton disappeared?)...

But they survived... somewhat.

So... let's follow the Malaysian model? No.

Consider... Malaysia has three times the GDP of the Philippines, with four times the industrial capacity, 1/10th the poverty and half the unemployment. They have a captive market with little other choice but to buy local cars, or pay a huge tax. We can't match those market conditions. Hell... we can't even stop Subic imports from destroying the market base for local dealerships and factories!

A mass-produced, fully Filipino-designed and built car? Pipe dream. Not that I want to see local ventures fail, but I realize that their chances of success are slim.

In motorbikes, things are better... Blaze is relatively successful, and MCX is pioneering in creating their own unique style and designs, which are fully Philippine designed. They use Chinese parts, though... on discussion with some of these people, the consensus is that it would cost too much to make these parts locally... making their products uncompetitive. But at least the motorcycle market is big enough to give them this much autonomy.

The only way we will see a fully Filipino designed and built car is by going the carrozeria way... make a bespoke, limited edition, high-priced luxury car. Start with rebodied existing cars, then branch out to original designs and eventually original mechanicals. (and no... designing engines IS NOT beyond local capabilities... it's just too expensive and time consuming to be worth it except in special cases like this) Even if you get a mere handful of sales, the high price will help support your operation.

But even these have a high failure rate. Exotic car manufacturing is a risky business. Especially considering the global economy is in the crapper, at the moment.

[marg]

The Engine Block. This is just the starting point of building an engine.

Kaya ba ng Pinoy gumawa nito at 0.1mm tolerance to make this thing work flawlessly? Ask any Pinoy fabricator to make this and they will just scratch their heads.


Wala pa dito yung Transmission, which is 2,000% more complicated.

It's so Easy to say that kaya ng Pinoy to build an engine from scratch. But implementing it is an entirely different thing.

Let us be Realistic and not try to kid ourselves.

[carrora]

Actually matagal ng nagmamanufacture ang Asian Transmissions sa Laguna ng Transmission assembly for Mitsubishi. They are capable of making transmissions from design all the way to manufacturing. I believe their plant can also be configured to have a production run for manufacturing engines with very little changes in the set-up, kaya malamang hindi malabong magmanufacture tayo ng sarili nating engine.

[ghosthunter]

One area where the pinoy car builder can have a market is the small volume car manufacturer IF you can create a car for a niche market with guarantee of build quality (at least for the car as a whole minus the engine/tranny). Just buy the engine, tranny and suspension bits from a trusted manufacturer like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.

What kind of car would it be? ... Well, one area where people tends to spend money is in the exotic or sports car market. So if a company can build exotic looking, high performance cars, there might be a market. And you don't have to build 40,000 units. Just maybe 12 units for the first year would be enough.

What kind of car? Well, you can take a look at the Lotus Elise as an initial model but with more spacious & comfortable interior, more powerful engine and a proper roof. Make sure it has more acceleration than the usual boy racer car and a good match for those EVOs.

[marg]

Actually matagal ng nagmamanufacture ang Asian Transmissions sa Laguna ng Transmission assembly for Mitsubishi. They are capable of making transmissions from design all the way to manufacturing. I believe their plant can also be configured to have a production run for manufacturing engines with very little changes in the set-up, kaya malamang hindi malabong magmanufacture tayo ng sarili nating engine.

Of course ATC is capable of making transmissions and engines, It is an all-Japanese owned company set up locally to provide components for Mitsubishi vehicles.

[JJCarEnthusiast]

those people from asian transmission could share their knowledge to the benefit of the philippines and not for the japs anymore.. hehe

[ghosthunter]

those people from asian transmission could share their knowledge to the benefit of the philippines and not for the japs anymore.. hehe

No one is that charitable. At the end of the day, it is still business.

[uls]

it's not only knowledge

you can have all the knowledge how to build a transmission

but if you have no manufacturing plant, no machinery, no equipment, no tools, no parts, no fabrication, no raw materials, NO CAPITAL to make things happen, then that knowledge is useless

it's like a scientist who KNOWS how to decode the human genome

if he doesnt have access to a lab and equipment, he can't put the knowledge to work

[marg]

those people from asian transmission could share their knowledge to the benefit of the philippines and not for the japs anymore.. hehe

While you're at it, why don't you ask Steve Jobs to share his knowledge on making the IPOD for the benefit of the Filipinos.

[niky]

The iPod? An overpriced and over-hyped MP3 player? No thanks... I'd rather spend my money on a new cellphone...

Kaya ba ng Pinoy gumawa nito at 0.1mm tolerance to make this thing work flawlessly? Ask any Pinoy fabricator to make this and they will just scratch their heads.

Riiiiight.

So, we don't have engineers, machine-shops, engine builders, tuners and the like? So the guys who go out and hand-build 600 horsepower motors for the PDRF are just a bunch of hacks? Maybe I should talk to my friend who blueprints engines and ask him why he can't build things to a 0.1 mm tolerance... let's see if he'll slap me or laugh in my face.

When the rest of us say it's not likely to happen, we're not saying our fellow countrymen are all a bunch of slobbering idiots. We're just saying there's no financial incentive to do this here.

Anything can be done for the right price. Many local machine shops and speed shops can fabricate components for you of the highest quality... matching that of the best aftermarket manufacturers abroad. The only reason they don't? It's expensive.

Why spend 40,000 pesos custom grinding a camshaft here in the Philippines when you can buy a mass-produced one off the shelf for just 20,000 pesos from a US shop? Or how about spending 20,000 pesos on a pair of custom-spec drive-axles for drag-racing (don't laugh... I've done this) when you can just buy off-the-shelf for less hassle? Same goes for pistons or connecting rods... it just costs way too much money for what you get, when you can just buy it cheaper from Taiwan.

-

The local talent isn't limited to lateros who bang out Jeepney bodies and tricycle sidecars, you know... There are people in the Philippines who can do these things... or who could, if asked. Instead, they're pirated by foreign companies or go and do something else. There's simply no market and no money to do these things locally.

-

Some of you are overestimating the difficulty of actually designing and building an engine. There are people who build them from scratch in their garage.

The true difficulty is in how much time and money needs to be spent to engineer an engine that meets the needs of the global market. That takes money. Hell... some companies can spend hundreds of millions on engines that turn out to be absolute turds. And subcontractors. There are usually several subcontractors involved in the design of one engine for a major manufacturer... The manufacturer will usually engineer the engine and the head... a subcontractor like Delphi will engineer the valvetrain... Bosch will do the fuel system... another subcontractor engineers the bearings and piston rings... yet another supplies the engine accessories... and another builds the ECU... which is then programmed by the manufacturer, or, sometimes, mapped by a subcontractor, like... say... Lotus or Yamaha... or Yamaha might even design the valvetrain and engine programming... like it did with the SHO project or the Volvo V8.

That's the biggest difference between a Pinoy car company and a foreign one. Millions upon millions of dollars in budget... a well-equipped and manned engineering team... a huge support industry... and a market large enough to guarantee sales to pay for all those expenses.

That's why the MVPMAP PhUV looks so crude. That was developed on a two million peso budget.

Hell... that's what an American or Japanese car company would spend on gasoline allowances for their executives in one week. Or on accounting services for a day. Not even a drop in the bucket.

-

Again: It's the money. No more, no less. Just because we can't do it, doesn't mean nobody here can...

[uls]

even if you have the blueprint on how to build an ipod doesnt mean you can build an ipod

where's your equipment?

Taiwanese or Chinese contract manufacturers that build Ipods for Apple know how to build an Ipod

they can build ipod clones coz not only do they have the knowledge, they also have the equipment

--

just read Niky's post above

yep...

it's money

it takes money to turn ideas into reality

you can have the brightest ideas in the world

but if you don't have the ways and means to turn your ideas into reality, those ideas will just remain ideas

[marg]

Some of you are overestimating the difficulty of actually designing and building an engine. There are people who build them from scratch in their garage.

Then your Underestimating the difficulty of building an engine from scratch. If its that easy to build one from scratch in a garage then nakagawa na ng engine ang mga Pinoy dati pa.

My friend who owns one of the largest machine shops in the country said that hindi kaya magfabricate ng engine ang mga Pinoy. Its beyond our practical capability. Anyone who says otherwise daw is dreaming or smoking funny cigarettes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQe4G0Q9qiU"]YouTube - How It's Made (Season 7 / Episode 2 / Part 1)[/ame]
The Engine Block, Step 1 in making an Engine

[niky]

Then your Underestimating the difficulty of building an engine from scratch. If its that easy to build one from scratch in a garage then nakagawa na ng engine ang mga Pinoy dati pa.

Let's see... Henry Ford, Daimler... they had huge factories at their disposal when making their first cars... not. Hell... the first motorcycle engine by Daimler was basically a single-cylinder made out of a can.

Back in the thirties or fifties, (I honestly can't be bothered to look it up, it's in my archive in my library) there was a non-engineer who developed and built, by his lonesome, a gasoline engine for his micro-car project. His company went tails up because even there, building your own engine without the volume is financial suicide.

Heck... there's only one car manufacturer who actually successfully designs and manufactures their own engine without selling units in the millions... Ferrari.

Porsche's engines were co-developed with Volkswagen... and they've been refining the same boxer-six design since time immemorial... helps that they have VAG money, too.. and they've been outsourcing some of the work for that engine... which has led to the nasty side-effect of RMS failures on recent engines.

Lamborghini uses its own engines, but has almost never been profitable... being kicked back and forth between different corporate owners. Same with Jaguar... same with Bentley (though Jaguar uses their own engines, Bentley's is derived from someone else's)... and TVR, even though they've built their own engine (and it's a fantastic one, at that), has been bankrupt more times than I can count.

Building your own engine just for the hell of it makes no financial sense at all.

My friend who owns one of the largest machine shops in the country said that hindi kaya magfabricate ng engine ang mga Pinoy. Its beyond our practical capability. Anyone who says otherwise daw is dreaming or smoking funny cigarettes.

A Machine Shop Owner isn't a factory owner, or an automotive engineer.

"Beyond Practical Capability" doesn't mean we're too stupid to do it. It just means that it's completely impractical.

I could build you a complete engine from parts built at a local machine shop. I already gave you examples of engine parts and automotive parts that can be fabricated with the basic tools you have at a machine shop. I haven't even covered the parts that can be sand-casted at a local factory or milled on a CNC machine.

Would it be sophisticated? Depends. If you want something like a brand new Honda engine, you'd have to give me something similar to the 200 million dollars Hyundai spent developing the Tau engine... just so I could hire a few dozen engineering graduates and buy the computers and software required to design it.

Would it be practical? Not bloody likely. It would probably cost me a million pesos to build an engine via machine shop, rather than having a dedicated factory building at volume.

YouTube - How It's Made (Season 7 / Episode 2 / Part 1)
The Engine Block, Step 1 in making an Engine

You'll note that all the difficult parts of that process are difficult only because they require expensive machines. If someone really wanted to, they could bring them in and build an engine.

But would they? No. Because there's not enough money to be made off of them.

If you're building for the Philippine market, the most number of units you could be expected to move per year is around ten to twenty thousand... realistically. Now... how many years would you have to be selling to recoup the development cost of one engine? Fifty? A hundred?

That's why the only engine-building plants in the Philippines are owned by multi-nationals... because they leverage their costs across the entire ASEAN market, not just the Philippines.

Maybe you don't really know much about the Philippines... there's an entire plant dedicated to stamping out bodies for AUVs... wholly local owned... sitting derelict. Why? Foreign partner pulled out. Without foreign sales... not enough money.

There's a newer plant for making body panels... wholly locally owned... and they're having trouble getting business because the foreign partner whom they were counting on selling to is building its own plant...

There's the Ford plant for building engines. Foreign-owned, but fully staffed by locals. The CNC machines used there can do what your buddy's machine shop can't. In fact... there are a number of local companies that already use similar CNC machines... but not for automotive engines... instead, they're used to make more profitable items, like handguns, motorcycle accessories... oh... and those really, like, y'know, barok things called mag-wheels that ROTA makes.

Oh, yeah... instead of cutting mags by hand with a hammer and chisel, in true local fashion... ROTA uses state-of-the-art equipment to make their mag-wheels... which are sold as aftermarket units both here and in the US, and are used as original equipment on some locally sold cars (my Lynx RS's factory mags are made by ROTA).

In fact, you could ask them to custom-build a set for you, to your own specifications. Bring a lot of cash... it's expensive.

-

Me? Smoking stuff? I'm just being realistic. I'm not the one insinuating my countrymen are too stupid to do it. But I'm not saying we could build an engine tomorrow. In fact, I'd be surprised if any of the local taipans were to invest in automotive manufacturing within the next fifty years.

But that's not because of lack of talent, or lack of ability. The major barrier to building a local car is dineros, plain and simple. It's just not profitable to tackle such a project... not unless our government bans all imported surplus cars and tacks a 200% tax on all brand new cars... and sinks at least a billion pesos into building our very own car brand.

Think those self-interested politicos would do so? Nope, neither do I.

[wildthing]

hindi naman sa nagmamarunong pero I also do not agree sa opinion ng kaibigan ni marg na hindi kaya ng pinoy... i would say "hindi kaya ng kaibigan niyang pinoy (na may malaking machine shop)"...

if you still don't believe... I read before that there is a local machine shop here that tunes F3 cars ng Asian contenders ng F3 (take note that their clients are not just the local F3 racers ... pati karatig bansa na player)... they are rebuilding and fabricating parts of an engine that runs on the 10,000rpm plus range. .... 0.1mm tolerance ba kamo... well that is attainable with the right machinery.

mas maniniwala ako na there is "no money incentive" in making one kaya walang gumagawa ng engine na Pinoy or sa Pinas...

maraming merun pera sa Pinas (you would be amaze who they really are) pero they don't want to invest in this endeavor kasi walang return sa investment nila... mas may investment return pa sa pasugalan... hehehe

[uls]

ultimate bottom line is CAPITAL

capital goes to where it can get returns

so far, nobody sees any returns in building a 100% Philippine made engine, transmission, or car

like wildthing said, there are many people here who have tons of money

but they don't bother allocating capital to such projects

they see more potential returns in gambling

[marg]

But I'm not saying we could build an engine tomorrow. In fact, I'd be surprised if any of the local taipans were to invest in automotive manufacturing within the next fifty years.

In short, hindi nga kaya gumawa ang PINOY ng sariling engine.

[wildthing]

:pepsi: :popcorn: